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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:56 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Pashacar 07:02 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| I don't see anything at all bizarre or inaccurate in what I wrote. Because there has fairly recently been a huge, laudable push to represent diverse voices in theater, especially in terms of playwriting, I honestly think that some (NOT all) of the plays by non-white male playwrights that feature characters of diverse races are chosen largely because they are by non-white male playwrights and feature characters of diverse races, even when the plays are not worthy of production or, at least not ready for production. Recent examples, in my opinion, include DADDY and STRAIGHT WHITE MEN. But as I also noted in my post, some plays are chosen for production because they were written by established playwrights -- very often, but not always, white men -- with whom the theater has a relationship (e.g., Terrence McNally, John Patrick Shanley), not based on the quality of the scripts. In both cases, the quality and stageworthiness of the scripts is not the primary consideration. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:01 am EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Michael_Portantiere 10:56 pm EST 03/07/19 | |
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| the problem with this, Michael, like the problem with what we discussed the other day, is that you seem to think that your (perfectly valid) take is somehow controlling or predominant. Here are two more shows in which most reviews are positive (and you don't need to tell me that your cohort is aligned with you). (SWM was written by a woman, btw...) The point you try to make here is intellectually unfathomable in any objective context. What's going on? | |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:30 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 12:01 am EST 03/08/19 | |
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| "The problem with this, Michael, like the problem with what we discussed the other day, is that you seem to think that your (perfectly valid) take is somehow controlling or predominant. Here are two more shows in which most reviews are positive (and you don't need to tell me that your cohort is aligned with you). (SWM was written by a woman, btw...) The point you try to make here is intellectually unfathomable in any objective context." I don't know how to respond, because I think you misread my post -- evidenced by the fact that you wrote "SWM was written by a woman" as if correcting me, when that was my point in the first place. But maybe I confused you in my use of dashes, because what I meant was that neither STRAIGHT WHITE MEN nor DADDY were written by white males -- SWM was written by an Asian-American woman, DADDY by a black male (I assume African-American, but I'm not sure). And I don't think my take is "controlling" or "predominant," I just think that some plays are produced for reasons other than the quality of the writing, and there are several different reasons for that, as I noted. Of course, because it's so subjective, it's impossible to determine the percentage of unworthy plays produced for any specific reasons, so I'm not claiming that my opinion is controlling or predominant in that sense. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:50 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Michael_Portantiere 12:30 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
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| regarding the "I don't know..." paragraph, you wrote "... are chosen largely because they are by non-white male playwrights ... Recent examples, in my opinion, include DADDY and STRAIGHT WHITE MEN." I think I interpreted that correctly but I now obviously understand that you are not in fact mistaken about it. :-) Regarding the other, the resolution is not as easy. I find it unfortunate that you seemingly don't recognize the problem with what you are saying. You are trying to extrapolate from your personal opinion about these shows (that I have been clear I am not challenging) to a broader point about unworthiness that is not supportable objectively. Your premise is that these are examples of unworthy plays, but that is based only on your opinions which are not in line with the majority opinions. And again, nothing wrong with your opinions being different, but they cannot provide an intellectually sound foundation for your conclusion. And this seems to be a troubling (to me) pattern lately. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:40 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 01:50 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
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| "Your premise is that these are examples of unworthy plays, but that is based only on your opinions which are not in line with the majority opinions. And again, nothing wrong with your opinions being different, but they cannot provide an intellectually sound foundation for your conclusion. And this seems to be a troubling (to me) pattern lately." I think I understand, and I agree that this would be troubling if it were, in fact, what I'm doing -- but I don't think this is what I'm doing. Maybe there is some confusion over what plays we're discussing in this thread? My memory of STRAIGHT WHITE MEN is that many of the reviews for the play itself were mixed to negative, and although I've only read three reviews of DADDY in the past couple of days, there were all very negative. As far as Shanley and McNally, so many of their plays have been so negatively received that I hardly think I need cite any examples. Can you specify which examples I've given of plays I consider unworthy where that opinion was not in line with the majority? And before you bring up TORCH SONG again, I can only repeat that a LOT of the word of mouth that I PERSONALLY heard about the recent production was very negative -- but I do recognize that this does not comport with the majority of reviews that were written by professional theater critics. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:46 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - Michael_Portantiere 03:40 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
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| The reviews of Straight White Men were overwhelmingly positive, the only truly negative reviews from substantial sources being Hilton Als and Terry Teachout. The reviews of Daddy are definitely more mixed but overall not negative or "very negative." Those are the examples. (I'll put Torch Song to bed.) So perhaps your premise on the two is flawed based on factual mistakes rather than on some pathological resistance (:-) ) to facts, and now that you can see the facts hopefully you can appreciate the issue I am/was having. |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 09:43 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 06:46 pm EST 03/08/19 | |
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| The argument that there is not a resistance to facts would only hold water if we hadn't already had at least one conversation in which the reviews of SWM were claimed to be negative and proven to be positive. That didn't change the argument then, and I doubt it will change the argument now. After all, if anyone wanted to check their memory of the reviews, they could quickly visit Show Score and confirm that SWM sits at 72/73 with critics and audiences, which in Show Score parlance means 4 stars. | |
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| re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:22 am EST 03/08/19 | |
| In reply to: re: How does something as underdeveloped as SUPERHERO get produced on that level? - ryhog 12:01 am EST 03/08/19 | |
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| I'm still curious to find out how people of color making generally lighthearted jokes about white people which are targeted towards the powerful rather than the powerless is akin to Nazis making jokes about Jews in the 1930s. We've never cleared that up. | |
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