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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: lanky 01:10 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - AlanScott 12:21 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
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| Arguably wrong -- if there's such a thing -- especially in the case of "Dolly!". I remember a short item in the Times just before "Dolly" opened noting the show would have no overture. Champion was quoted as saying audiences talked right through overtures, not listening. Did "Carnival" ever have an overture? |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:10 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - lanky 01:10 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
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| Oh, good. We agree. I mean, if it were true, then we'd have to say that Roberta, Carousel, Fiddler, Company, Cabaret and God knows how many other musicals don't have decent music. I can't find that Champion item but in the Carnival! pre-opening Times article it said that there was no overture in the usual sense, and Champion was then quoted with "They're dull." There was a pre-opening Times article on Hello, Dolly! that had quotes from Champion but nothing about overtures. |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: lanky 06:46 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - AlanScott 06:10 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| Quite likely that I confused the two articles. Time and memory will do that. Now that you cite these, I do remember Champion's comment about cutting the overture from "Carnival." Was it rather unusual, or a departure, for a show not to have an overture at that time? Have to disagree with Champion, though, when he says that overtures are dull. Tell that to someone who just s saw "Gypsy." If audiences talk through overtures, the audience, not the overture, is likely the problem. Also, did "Dolly" have an overture at any time during its tryouts? |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:49 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - lanky 06:46 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| Audiences did talk through overtures even then, at least if I can trust anecdotal evidence, including some of the great ones. But I like overtures, too, as I just posted in reply to BigM. It was unusual for a show back then not to have an overture. Not quite unheard of, but unusual. |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: lanky 08:59 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - AlanScott 06:49 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| I remember a letter to the Times Arts and Leisure section, probably appearing in the summer of '62, in which the writer complained of hearing "not one bar" from the overture to "Milk and Honey" at a then-recent matinee. Wanna bet you can find it, AlanScott? lol | |
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| LOL, yes | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:36 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - lanky 08:59 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| June 17, 1962, Very good. Funny letter. Thanks for pointing me toward it. | |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:22 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - lanky 01:10 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
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| But overtures aren't inherently meant ONLY to exist if the audience sits quietly through them listening. It's not only a chance for the audience and theater to settle down fully and *start* focusing on the world of the show, getting the outside world they just walked in from and their many other thoughts banished for a bit.. but ALSO, very usefully, it plants the seed in the brain and ear of what tunes will be coming later. This makes most scores immediately more "memorable" and "hummable" because when the audiences hears the actual song for the first time, in many cases, it is not the first time they've heard it. So it's not only satisfying in a different way they didn't know it would be (vs if it were entirely knew and their ear is wrapping itself around it for the first time while also needing to experience it and have it work in the moment and listen to/process the lyrics) but it's delivering on a little promise from earlier. I am not saying all shows should have overtures or that the ones that don't are missing something ... I like hearing music for the very first time as much as after getting a taste of it first. But I think the way musicals work with most audiences, I do think many shows without an overtures are at something of a disadvantage. Who knows. I love a great overtures. And I also love a grabbing opening number (which Sondheim relies much more on, and brilliantly, than overtures which he only ever used in Forum and Merrily of the shows he wrote music to, if I'm not mistaken... but Forum and Merrily have two of the greatest and most exciting and satisfying overtures I've ever heard. The other scores that have opening music all seem to be prologues more than overtures - ACW, ALNM, Follies). |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: Ned3301 06:47 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - Chazwaza 06:22 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
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| Actually, A Little Night Music does have an overture. It treats at some full measure Remember, two strains of the Now-Soon-Later trio, and The Glamorous Life. Of course, it's vocal piece. And it was staged, which may suggest something other than an overture. But it does preview three of the show's numbers, again at some reasonable length. For all that, it's more of an overture than My Fair Lady's, which gives us two full-out refrains but really just a taste of You Did It first. |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:59 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - Ned3301 06:47 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
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| Oh I'm very aware of the "overture" in ALNM, ;) I guess it depends on what defines an Overtures. Follies and ACW whistle also have prologues that preview a few songs from the score... but they aren't considered overtures. Of course the Follies prologue is based majorly on a gorgeous song that was cut from the actual show... if "All Things Bright and Beautiful" was still in the show, would it be considered an overture? |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:56 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - Chazwaza 06:59 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
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| It's easy to get confused about the overture in ALNM because some of the revivals, including the RNT production and the Broadway revival, have not done what was done originally. Both cut back on it to varying degrees, with the RNT production cutting it down to almost nothing and the Broadway revival breaking it up and . . . whatever it did. And also because there have been only two complete recordings of it (unless I've missed something), and neither used the original orchestration, and one of those recordings has never been issued on CD. And on the other, the soprano doesn't take the high note. | |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:54 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - AlanScott 05:56 am EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| So which recording uses the full overtures, even if not with the original orchestration? But why would they not use the orchestration used in their production? And is the overture performed in the 1990 NYCO production that was broadcast the full overture, and is it sung properly? |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:51 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - Chazwaza 06:54 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| The only two recordings I know of the complete overture are these: 1. On the LP A Little Sondheim Music, performed by a group called the Los Angeles Vocal Arts Ensemble, issued on EMI Angel in 1984. The singers are accompanied by two pianos throughout the LP. 2. On the TER/JAY studio-cast recording, which used the orchestration employed in the 1989 Chichester Festival production, which moved to London, where it ran for four-and-a-half months. John Owen Edwards, one of JAY's regular conductors, conducted that production and created the orchestration (based closely on Tunick's), which was for 12 players. A percussionist was added for the recording. There is sometimes a misconception that the JAY recording is a cast recording of that Chichester-London production but it's really not, as the cast on the recording features only six or seven people who were in that production, depending on how you count them (the quintet, the Charlotte, and the Carl-Magnus, who switched to Fredrik for the recording). Yes, the complete original overture with the full orchestration was in that City Opera production. |
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| Didn't the ALNM Overture... | |
| Posted by: Dawson 08:21 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - AlanScott 07:51 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| ...contain bits and pieces written for another Sondheim musical that was ultimately discarded? | |
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| re: Didn't the ALNM Overture... | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:46 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: Didn't the ALNM Overture... - Dawson 08:21 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| Not to my knowledge. For a time, Sondheim planned to include a waltz that he'd written back in the 1950s, when they were hoping to get the rights to Ring Round the Moon (which they again tried to do after Follies). That was to have been where "Night Waltz" ultimately was. A bit of the "trio" (as the term is sometimes used in classical sense as the middle, contrasting section of a dance such as a minuet) of that waltz ended up in the trio section of the "Night Waltz." Perhaps you're thinking of that? Anyway, all the music in the overture is from the show. | |
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| Yes, RING ROUND THE MOON was what I was thinking of. Thanks! n/m | |
| Posted by: Dawson 08:52 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Didn't the ALNM Overture... - AlanScott 08:46 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| re: Yes, RING ROUND THE MOON was what I was thinking of. Thanks! n/m | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:03 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: Yes, RING ROUND THE MOON was what I was thinking of. Thanks! n/m - Dawson 08:52 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| Really, just a few bars from the trio of that "French waltz" ended up in the "Night Waltz." | |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: StanS 01:59 pm EDT 06/27/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - Chazwaza 06:59 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
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| Is the "Chicago" overture not an overture? It is based on one song, "Loopin' the Loop", which was cut from the show. | |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:59 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - StanS 01:59 pm EDT 06/27/19 | |
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| I adore the Chicago overture but in many ways it is unique because it doesn't really give you much of the songs that will be in the show - actually, none of them. So I would think that doesn't really count as an Overture... except that an overture is not defined by being music in the show to come, just music before the show. But in musical theater, it is. So I would say that Chicago has a prologue more than an overture. Like Follies or 1776. | |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:32 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - Chazwaza 06:59 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| Chicago has an overture because that's what the writers named it. Same in 1776. In the same way, Follies has a prelude followed by an overture. That's what the writers chose to call these pieces. The "Fugue For Tinhorns" is not in any way a fugue, tinhorns or not. But no one's changing the title. |
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| SWEET ADELINE | |
| Posted by: Dawson 10:02 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - Chromolume 09:32 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| Then in Sweet Adeline, the overture is not a medley of the show's music, but rather a medley of hits from the 1890s (when the show takes place.) | |
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| The Fantasticks | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:15 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:15 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: SWEET ADELINE - Dawson 10:02 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| The overture to The Fantasticks is unrelated to any of the songs in the show. A few times the overture's theme is used as transition/incidental music in the course of the show, but it's never sung or developed further. | |
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| What about the overture to CANDIDE? n/m | |
| Posted by: Dawson 11:20 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: The Fantasticks - Chromolume 11:15 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| re: What about the overture to CANDIDE? n/m | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:49 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
| In reply to: What about the overture to CANDIDE? n/m - Dawson 11:20 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| The Candide overture does use some vocal themes from the show along the way, notably the fanfare-ish theme in "The Best Of All Possible Worlds" and of course "Glitter And Be Gay." | |
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| re: What about the overture to CANDIDE? n/m | |
| Posted by: StanS 12:47 am EDT 06/29/19 | |
| In reply to: re: What about the overture to CANDIDE? n/m - Chromolume 11:49 pm EDT 06/28/19 | |
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| Even more notably, the duet "Oh, Happy We", which takes up the entire 2nd theme area of exposition and recap of a sonata form. | |
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| re: What about the overture to CANDIDE? n/m | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:06 am EDT 06/29/19 | |
| In reply to: re: What about the overture to CANDIDE? n/m - StanS 12:47 am EDT 06/29/19 | |
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| Yes indeed. Thank you! ;-) | |
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| re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture | |
| Posted by: scoot1er 02:23 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: "Bye Bye Birdie" overture - lanky 01:10 pm EDT 06/26/19 | |
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| I saw the original. No overture. The audience enters with the curtain already up on a pretty bare stage. Pierre Olaf enters and begins playing Love Makes the World Go Round and slowly and magnificently, as only Gower Champion could do it, the carnival comes to live. A thrilling opening number. | |
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