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| On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:53 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:43 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| From TV to film to video games to pop music to art direction in print media and advertising, words like retro, vintage, and old school dominate the trendlines. Neo-soul production made Amy Winehouse an international superstar when she released an album that legit sounded like it could have been left in a profanity-stained trunk in 1964. From the Todd Haynes film "Far From Heaven" to promo ads for Netflix's "Stranger Things," TV and film have dozens of examples of productions that not only depict a previous era, but aim to do so with the look, feel, and production values of the time. In musical theatre, when contemporary composers and lyricists attempt to create songs that sound like recreations of a previous era, most readers here probably know that we call that pastiche. Classic examples of pastiche are the songs from the "Loveland" sequence (and others) in FOLLIES, some of the new tunes that Jeanine Tesori composed for THOROUGHLY MODERN MILLIE, as well as others from THE DROWSY CHAPERONE, DAMES AT SEA, songs from A DAY IN HOLLYWOOD / A NIGHT IN THE UKRAINE, and lots of others. They're written by modern composers, but they sound like they could have been written in a previous time. Although we've had a handful of recent musicals that comment on, spoof or reference previous eras -- say, the way much of SOMETHING ROTTEN, SPAMALOT or THE PRODUCERS do -- here's what I don't see: someone trying to write, produce, and mount a new musical that earnestly feels like it might have been written and produced during Broadway's Golden Age. (And let's not get stuck on technicalities. For the sake of this thread, let's say that the Golden Age is roughly 1943-1959.) Keyword: EARNEST. If there's any big lesson that HAMILTON should have taught us, it was the fact that audiences are fully ready to buy in fully to the earned emotions of a musical, and no winking asides are necessary. The hit revival of HELLO, DOLLY! maintained that same earnestness and went over like gangbusters. If someone had a great story to tell, I'm convinced that a show in the style of Rodgers & Hammerstein II, Lerner & Loewe, Frank Loesser, or Bock & Harnick could be a massive hit. Here's my question: is anyone trying to write that kind of material? Is there anyone out there who could? And if they did, would we respect them? When I listen to Mark Ronson's production on Amy Winehouse's "Back to Black," or the Wham! inspiration on Charlie Puth's production on "Done for Me," or Alan Menken's "An American in Paris" pastiche on "The Big Olive" within the soundtrack to Disney's "Hercules," I sit back and admire their attention to detail. I know how HARD it would be to write music that even got anywhere near the memorable tunefulness of the Golden Age, not to mention the cleverness and ease with a lyric that Hammerstein II, Lerner and Harnick brought to their work. But someone could do it. Who? And would we pay to see a show like that? - GMB |
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| The Producers | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 12:53 pm EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:43 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| I don’t think The Producers spoofed the genre. For me, it played as a Golden Age musical comedy. | |
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| re: The Producers | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 09:17 am EDT 08/29/19 | |
| In reply to: The Producers - KingSpeed 12:53 pm EDT 08/27/19 | |
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| I think that's fair for most of the score, with an obvious exception for the "Springtime for Hitler" sequence. Which, to be fair, is undoubtedly the funniest spoof of musicals that we'll probably ever hope to see. The main melody of "I Wanna Be a Producer" absolutely could have been written by Harry Warren or Irving Berlin. Easily. Even Berlin on a good day. But the song opens with a pretty spoof-y Kander & Ebb CABARET sound, followed by a very on-the-nose spoof of "Ol' Man River" from SHOW BOAT. And before the main refrain begins, the orchestration even hints at the melody with a French Horn solo that's meant to invoke R&H, probably THE SOUND OF MUSIC. So, I'll give you this: although the gooey-carmel center of THE PRODUCERS is surely earnest and pastiche in a way that honors the form, the whole show is kinda gussied up & decorated with spoofy elements. The winks are pretty prevalent. That's one of the reasons why it's so funny; I wouldn't change a thing. - GMB |
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| re: The Producers | |
| Posted by: Ann 09:21 am EDT 08/29/19 | |
| In reply to: re: The Producers - GrumpyMorningBoy 09:17 am EDT 08/29/19 | |
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| Great assessment of The Producers, GrumpyMorningBoy, a show I've been disappointed to see get kicked around after its blockbuster Broadway start. | |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: PJ 11:22 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:43 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| I'm making my way through this thread (and loving it). GMB's posts continue to be one of my favorite things about this community. While composers certainly control the sound of their music, I'd posit that arrangers and orchestrators have an equal, if not larger, influence on the overall sonic identity of a piece. Further, a large part of the disappearance of pastiche may be attributed to the economic needs/constraints of the production. The larger and more "broadway!/acoustic" composition of the arrangement/orchestration, the more likely it will be to fall on the ear as "pastiche," if indeed that's the goal. What I wouldn't give to hear the Dear Evan Hansen score kitted out in the style of Robert Russell Bennett or Jonathan Tunick. Would it be good? Probably not. Would be an interesting experiment? Absolutely. BCEFA: Consider a "Will It Pastiche?" fundraiser concert, pls. To answer one of your original questions: today's most likely candidates for Keeper of the Pastiche Flame (to my ear) are probably Jeanine Tesori ("Millie") and David Yazbeck, both talented compositional mimics and strong composers in their own regard; Matthew Sklar (Leavel's "The Prom" numbers); and perhaps Paul Gordon (whom I regard as a slave to melody, like Rodgers). PJ |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 09:08 am EDT 08/29/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - PJ 11:22 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
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| Gosh, that's kind. I do try to pose the kind of questions that don't have easy answers, but I too am continually AMAZED at the encyclopedic knowledge of theatre history & experience that exists within this online community. It's pretty remarkable! I think your point about orchestration is sooooooo valid. I'd go even further to say that I would pay GOOD MONEY to hear a cast recording that did its best to sound like a Goddard Lieberson recording from the CBS 30th Street studio. Those warm echoey acoustics in the classic Broadway cast recordings get me all nostalgic! - GMB |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:20 pm EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - PJ 11:22 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
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| While composers certainly control the sound of their music, I'd posit that arrangers and orchestrators have an equal, if not larger, influence on the overall sonic identity of a piece. In certain respects that's always true. But orchestrators and arrangers do need to be in lockstep with the composer's stylistic intentions. The reason that a "golden age" orchestration for Dear Evan Hansen would be ridiculous (and laughable) is simply because that's not the musical style of the score that Pasek and Paul wrote. Style is a collaboration, not the will of the orchestrator. Even in cases where the composer doesn't know how to write or notate an accompaniment in the style he wants, the orchestrator should know how to do just that. So yes, while the finished musical product we hear in any show is certainly due to the work of arrangers and orchestrators as well as the composer, it shouldn't be the case that the arrangers and orchestrators are writing against the composer's style. It's more that they need to have a keen sense for how to expand on what the composer has already set out. If Lacamoire had said to Pasek and Paul, "this is all great stuff - and I'm going to write a Robert Russell Bennett-style orchestration for you, because I think it would be fun to try that," I daresay he might have been taken off the project. ;-) Whatever one may think about the current Oklahoma, I think that orchestration works because it stays within a style that we can already naturally sense from the show's setting. (But you wouldn't want the same "country band" feel for Carousel, for instance - it wouldn't be the right match.) So if the style is going to change, I think there has to be a valid reason that fits with the specifics of the production. |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 07:36 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:43 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| It wasn't a stage show but Shaiman and Wittman's Mary Poppins movie was an attempt to do an earnest show without "comment" or "meta". And they went for melody and not pop or faux-Sondheim or a contemporary Broadway sound. And, yes, part of their job was to evoke the Sherman brothers. | |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 09:02 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - AnObserver 07:36 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
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| When I saw "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels", it was like seeing a well-made Golden Age style musical comedy from the 1950s-1960s that was a lot of fun, tuneful and witty and had great leading roles. | |
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| Shaiman / Wittman's "Mary Poppins Returns" | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:12 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:03 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - AnObserver 07:36 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
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| Great mention! I couldn't wait to hear the score for "Mary Poppins Returns" when I found out that Shaiman and Wittman were writing it, just because I think so highly of the score for HAIRSPRAY. In my mind, they did a good job with an incredibly difficult task. I'm probably being too harsh on something that is more than an admirable output. But in my opinion, the only song from the film that musically sounds like the Sherman brothers is "The Cover is Not The Book." That sounds like it could have been a trunk song. It's a great melody. But the lyric isn't good enough. The verses attempt to tell quick snapshot versions of other P.L. Travers stories, but the words fly at you so quickly that it's nearly impossible to pick up on any kind of real storyline. And Mr. Wittman has countless opportunities to surprise us with a clever rhyme or surprising turn of phrase, and he doesn't. The Sherman brothers would have. I give them points for finding a great rhythm for a phrase like "trip a little light fantastic," but the melody is merely serviceable and very forgettable. And don't get me started on the lyric for "The Place Where Lost Things Go." The best advice that Mary Poppins can give to kids with a dead mom is that their mom is now making a star glow in the sky and she's watching from above? Really? That was a missed opportunity for some very Travers-esque truth telling, and instead, they swerved right into a Disney cliche. Still, I do think the score for "Mary Poppins Returns" is pretty darn good. It's just not at the level of the Sherman brothers. - GMB, who will never understand why they cast Lin-Manuel Miranda, and was fully expecting him to turn into an impostor villain from New York City who was doing a fake accent |
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| re: Shaiman / Wittman's "Mary Poppins Returns" | |
| Posted by: AnObserver 09:23 pm EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: Shaiman / Wittman's "Mary Poppins Returns" - GrumpyMorningBoy 08:03 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
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| Pastiche, by definition, is imitation. What I would like to see is someone like Shaiman write an earnest show in the idiom of the golden age. Melodic, with clever lyrics. In the idiom of Rodgers, Styne, Loesser, Herman, Lane, Loewe, etc. A mode of expression as opposed to "in the style of." | |
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| re: Shaiman / Wittman's "Mary Poppins Returns" | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 10:41 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: Shaiman / Wittman's "Mary Poppins Returns" - GrumpyMorningBoy 08:03 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
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| To what I think was your original point, or question, I do think there is no doubt that if someone COULD write a musical in the classic style, and might actually want to, Shaiman and Wittman are it. The evidence is bountiful from their use of pastiche in Hairspray (although granted they are not doing golden age there), Catch Me If You Can (a show that while I get why it didn't work for many, produced a SCORE that I have never tired of listening to over the years), some of the Poppins work, and some of the songs from Smash. I've also just thought about Frankel and Korie. Certianly much of Act One of Grey Gardens fits the bill. Drift Away, Will You?, Peas in a Pod, and on and on. They also used pastiche in War Paint, although under the surface their music is incredibly complex, more so than I think of the classics as being, but I could be wrong. This is based on me being able to read music and trying to play through their songs on the piano. Point is, I think they LIKE the classic style and could and would write a whole show in that style. |
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| That said, it's certainly a good recent example of pastiche musical theatre writing. (nm) | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:17 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: Shaiman / Wittman's "Mary Poppins Returns" - GrumpyMorningBoy 08:03 am EDT 08/27/19 | |
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| nm means narrative meanderings | |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 05:47 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:43 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| How do you feel about A Christmas Story? I'll say right off that I know parts of it sound modern. But I think they nail a lot of pastiche in the score. And that really works given the overall nostalgic quality of the piece. It's actually my favorite work of Pasek and Paul. I know they were hired hands to replace the original composer and may feel themselves this is something lesser in their careers, but I just love love love them writing in this vein. I think the period of it gives them a specificity to work with that strengthens the results. I followed them closely and rabidly based on my love of ACS but found I never liked much of the rest as they settled into a more pop sound that I suppose is their "sound" or "style". But I digress. I think it was successful. It was never going to recoup in the short holiday run on Broadway, but I think was always rolled into a larger plan combined with their annual touring. It was nominated for many major Tony Awards, including best book, musical, and score. So called holiday shows are not historically honored in this way. I think it's a beautiful show that succeeds completely as a piece of musical theatre and not just as a holiday diversion cashing in on a brand. I am waiting eagerly for the revival! |
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| re: Pasek & Paul | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 07:51 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - EvFoDr 05:47 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| I've been following these writers since before they'd even graduated college -- I heard songs from their song cycle EDGES that hinted that they had a bright future ahead. I still think "In Short," linked below, is one of their best songs. But while I do think that Pasek & Paul might have the talent to pen convincing Golden Age pastiche songs, I have a feeling they don't have the patience. Because holy shit, these dudes are prolific, and yeah, they figured out a long time ago that writing good songs quickly could get them a calendar full of gigs in projects that go on to earn MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. Seriously, more power to 'em. They're not just surely talented, they're now surely loaded. And good for them. So my opinion on their work probably doesn't matter a hill of beans, but when I listen to Pasek & Paul, I hear them settling. I hear repetitions of a lyric where a more ambitious writer would have flipped it and reversed it, spun a fresh rhyme, or created a surprising turn of phrase. And musically, although I do genuinely admire the way the composition feels coherent -- these songs have FLOW -- I rarely hear the music try to surprise the ear. Don't get me wrong; their talent lies in other areas. They're some of the only musical theatre writers who pen songs that almost sound so familiar and digestible on the first listen that you're surprised that no one has strung those particular notes together before. That's a rare gift. But this is why I consider Adam Guettel's writing to reflect a talent that he may have inherited from his pedigreed family: he knows how to set up expectations within the patterns of composition, then very intentionally break beyond that expectation to give us something our ear hadn't thought of. That's a melodic expectation that we enjoyed during the Golden Age, and we don't have that expectation from today's melodists. Taking it back to Pasek & Paul, if anything I feel like they intentionally try to clue you in on what to expect so nothing does surprise you. The big surprise of "Never Enough" from "The Greatest Showman" is that you don't expect the singer to take the melody quite that high, pushing her belt all the way up to the highest lyrics of "never enough!" But rather than really surprise our ear when the melody goes there, they give us that same melody in the accompaniment for the four measures prior. This is the one part of the film where they really could have written a pastiche song if they'd wanted to; the character is presented as a historic opera singer. When I saw it in the movie theater, I hadn't heard the soundtrack yet. When Ms. Lind's character's performance was approaching, I kinda figured we'd get something along the lines of "The Prayer" by Celine Dion & Andrea Boccelli, a song that wasn't exactly opera, but wasn't exactly pop. Instead, Pasek & Paul just wrote a Whitney Houston power ballad. Throwback? Yeah. But not very far back. So yeah, I don't think Pasek & Paul are very interested. I do like much of what they did on A CHRISTMAS STORY, and I give 'em points for keeping their pop instincts to a minimum. But even as a great song like "Ralphie to the Rescue" trades in some traditional musical theatre styles, it gets injected with some very contemporary rhythms. - GMB |
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| Link | "In Short" from EDGES, by Pasek & Paul, performed by Whitney Bashor |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: Seth Christenfeld (tabula-rasa@verizon.net) 05:22 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:43 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| I would argue that the best Golden Age/Rodgers & Hammerstein musical of recent years was the four-hour version of Giant by Michael John LaChiusa and Sybille Pearson, as presented at Signature Theatre about ten years ago--its sweep, emotion, and essential humanity were as close as it gets. Seth, not as fond of the three-hour version |
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| I wanna see GIANT... | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 08:46 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - Seth Christenfeld 05:22 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| Three, four, whatever. I love that score. Laura, stuck in LA |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:55 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:43 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| GrumpyMorningBoy, I would say that much of the work of Ahrens and Flaherty, and their RAGTIME in particular, fits your criteria. Don't you think? | |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 05:22 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 05:18 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - Michael_Portantiere 04:55 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| I thought about referring to RAGTIME in my post. It's probably the best recent-ish example of something that fully inherits the legacy of the Golden Age, but I imagined picking up the script and score, getting in a time machine back to 1959, and mounting it... ... it would feel revolutionary and unbelievably ahead of its time, particularly in certain sections. I don't think there's any way someone could have seen it as a current work. Yes, some parts could easily have been produced in that era, especially songs like "Crime of the Century," "Wheels of a Dream" or "Sarah Brown Eyes," but if you listen closely to much of "Your Daddy's Son," there's a whole lot of music there that no one would have written back then. If you know your music theory, take note of all those seconds and ninths. That's modern. If you pick apart "Coalhouse Demands," you might hear parts that reminisce back to unison agit-prop vocal parts from works like CRADLE WILL ROCK, but if you really listen to the structure of "Coalhouse Demands," there's an incredible fluency as it moves between sung lyric, spoken word, and orchestral details that just feels very much of the modern era, at least to me. I don't think Flaherty would have written this if Sondheim hadn't written the "City on Fire" sequence from SWEENEY TODD. I suppose we could compare it to some of Frank Loesser's best writing in the climax of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA, or find similarities to Gershwin / Bernstein, but to me, RAGTIME feels like the inherited progeny of those great works, not something that would be viewed as a contemporary of it. Still, I do think that Ahrens and Flaherty may be the most able to convincingly pen a pastiche musical from that era, if they wanted to. And if Howard Ashman were still here, he could have done so with Alan Menken. But are any newer writers who have this kind of historical command of the genre that they could do it? Could Lin-Manuel Miranda do it, if he really wanted to? Could Robert Lopez? Could Pasek & Paul? Marcy Heisler and Zina Goldrich? - GMB |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:24 pm EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:18 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| Pasek & Paul did it with A Christmas Story for sure. Sondheim could do it today if he wanted to. Glen Kelly could do it. He did it throughout The Producers and in his DD Award winning songs for The Nance. | |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:35 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:18 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| "I thought about referring to RAGTIME in my post. It's probably the best recent-ish example of something that fully inherits the legacy of the Golden Age, but I imagined picking up the script and score, getting in a time machine back to 1959, and mounting it....it would feel revolutionary and unbelievably ahead of its time, particularly in certain sections. I don't think there's any way someone could have seen it as a current work." Well, you could say the same thing about WEST SIDE STORY, to name only one example of several from back in the day. So I guess I'm not sure exactly what you mean. As for Lin-Manuel Miranda: Seeing as how he wrote those wonderful '60s Brit pop pastiche number for King George in HAMILTON -- yes, I am quite sure he could pen a whole musical in period pastiche style, if he wanted to. And the great John Kander could probably still do it, unless you don't count him because he has actually lived and worked through five decades or more. |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: MattPhilly 04:09 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:43 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| This is a great discussion! I think for a new musical in the vein of the Golden Age to be successful, it would have to be, like any other musical, just the right show at the right time. What about a Golden Age style show about the world we are living in now? R and H did it with South Pacific in 1949, why not now? I agree that the recent revival of Dolly showed that people are game if the show is done right. I was surprised how many people I knew, all regular to semi regular theatre goers, who saw the show for Bette, and had never been exposed to the material, but absolutely adored the show. |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 08:14 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:08 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - MattPhilly 04:09 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| Something that we really have very little of now, which Dolly and other shows of its time do have, is the economy of songwriting. Songs used to be ultimately based on a 32-bar model, which could be stretched and modified in various ways, but the form was essentially there to be relied upon, and even moreso, FELT by the listener. Also, a lyric could be very spare and simple, meant to be carried on the music, and with a lot of reading between the lines. But now, it seems composers and lyricists are more interested in epic writing, often, IMO, overstating their case instead of trusting the audience in on a simple melodic/lyric idea. It's what I sometimes call the "One Week" effect (referencing the run-on pop song of that name). The "standard" feel of most golden age songs just isn't there any more. Though occasionally it is. When I first heard "Nothing Is Too Wonderful To Be True" from Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, I immediately thought - aha, a standard!! And I'd further that with 2 things - one, the cabaret version of the song that Sherie Renee Scott does as a bonus on the CD, and also the more overtly comic refrain that Freddy sings (which feels very much like some older standards where one refrain is sincere, the other comic - think "Cherry Pies Ought To Be You" or "I Feel At Home With You"). I also feel that "Haled's Song About Love" (The Band's Visit) is about as "jazz standard" as you can get - and is also, for my money, one of the most beautiful songs (both music and lyrics) written in recent musical theatre history. So it can be done. But I do often wish that lyricists, especially, would take a second listen to a song like "One Hand, One Heart" or "True Love" or "All The Things You Are" or many other standards that express themselves with a real sense of economy and simplicity - and decide that they can in fact write that way too. Not every song has to express every last thing - in fact, oblique writing where things AREN'T all being spelled out are all the more alluring. But the tendency today is to overwrite. |
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| YASSSSSSS. | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:35 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - Chromolume 08:08 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| That's what I was saying out loud the whole time I was reading your response. SO TRUE. I'll go a bit further. It's not just that the lyrics are overwritten, but more often than not, they're redundant. I hear lyricists filling out the melody with extra words that complete a cliche or restate what's already been said. And they're usually dramatically inert, too. I'm not saying that it guarantees we're stuck in bad theater. (I always credit directors like Des McAnuff who figured out how to stage visual plot lines within TOMMY so it really didn't matter that they were saying the same thing over and over again.) But getting into the gems of the Golden Age, those writers really knew when a moment merited a more writerly approach. I look at something like "Adelaide's Lament," which -- to my ear -- is probably just about the greatest musical theatre lyric ever. Although that song goes on for multiple verses and choruses, it never overstays its welcome, for multiple reasons. One, the lyrics are just so amusing that you want to sink into your chair and just stay there for a while, but two, Adelaide needs that entire song to complete the scene; it's active. She's in the process of figuring things out, and she needs that whole song to put it all together in her mind. To your points, I sooo agree. And I love "Haled's Song About Love" from A BAND'S VISIT. And, in reference to one of my replies below, that little chromatic step in the melody is a blissfull ear-surprise. I trust you know the one I'm referring to. It's really nice. - GMB |
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| Posted before... | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 04:23 pm EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: YASSSSSSS. - GrumpyMorningBoy 08:35 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| ...but worth a repeat as it is particularly apropos. | |
| Link | A Contemporary Musical Theatre Song |
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| re: YASSSSSSS. | |
| Posted by: JohnPopa 08:41 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: YASSSSSSS. - GrumpyMorningBoy 08:35 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| Coincidentally, I was listening to "Guys and Dolls" over the weekend and had a similar though listening to "My Time of Day," - I doubt a modern lyricist could lay off and write something that simple. Same with a composer really. Everyone's working way too hard inside songs these days (in the sense that things are trying so hard to be clever and intricate and dazzling.) | |
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| re: YASSSSSSS. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:46 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: YASSSSSSS. - JohnPopa 08:41 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| And of course musically speaking, "My Time of Day" is actually quite complex - but it flows so well from one idea to the next that you almost don't realize it. | |
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| re: YASSSSSSS. | |
| Posted by: JohnPopa 08:57 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: YASSSSSSS. - Chromolume 08:46 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| Right, simple probably wasn't the right word. I think these days composers and lyrics see density as the best expression of complexity. (But I'll leave the nuts and bolts of that conversation to you musical types.) |
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| re: YASSSSSSS. | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:51 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: YASSSSSSS. - Chromolume 08:46 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| Having sat in on auditions once for GUYS & DOLLS, I can say that those tricky intervals in "My Time of Day" have caused many a potential Sky to fall! But Loesser was a genius, and he knew when to match complexity in the music to simplicity in the lyric. And the other way around. And I couldn't agree more about "Michael In The Bathroom." - GMB |
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| re: YASSSSSSS. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:40 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: YASSSSSSS. - GrumpyMorningBoy 08:35 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| I'll go a bit further. It's not just that the lyrics are overwritten, but more often than not, they're redundant. I hear lyricists filling out the melody with extra words that complete a cliche or restate what's already been said. Yes. And, four words in response to that - Michael. In. The. Bathroom. (That could have so easily been a 32-bar-ish cute little moment, but that as it is really overstays its welcome in spades. Redundant, tedious, and ultimately a one-joke song that tries way too hard to be more than that.) |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 04:57 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 04:52 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - MattPhilly 04:09 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| If there's any time when the moment is ripe, it's gotta be now, and it's especially the kind of thing we could do in America. We're all feeling pretty emotionally in-tune these days. But musicals are the perfect vehicle to explore those emotions, and the Golden Age's format plays right into our vulnerability. The reality is that the 'buy in' for an audience to suspend disbelief during a musical is the transition from spoken scene into song, and that transition was both an innovation and eventual convention of the American musical comedy / musical drama, popularized during our Golden Age. We are tremendously lucky -- as Americans, especially -- that we're so steeped in musicals now that huge masses of audience members will happily join in that journey to song, provided that the writers convince us that they know what they're doing. Our cultural adeptness in this area is breathtaking, really... even casual audiences who don't see a whole lot of musicals can instinctually feel when a song's coming on. And if it's good, they're on board. So I would LOVE to see writing that really feels like it might have been written during that period. It's an insanely high bar. Virtually no one is even attempting to put the focus on melody the way those writers did. Are there talented composers who might adapt their style for the work? Probably. The harder part would be finding a lyricist who could do it. Because if you really go back and look at those lyrics -- for the best of them -- there's a surprise rhyme or unexpected twist on nearly every stanza. Today's lyricists are rarely so ambitious; we're lucky if the lyrics even scan on the melody correctly and manage to sound like a unique character's voice. So that's what I'm dreaming of: great writing that honors and replicates the style of that era. And I'd love all the other conventions of the time: scenes 'in one,' any number of endless reprises of the best melodies, a full overture and entr'acte played by a full orchestra. And heck, If this could be matched with extended dance sequences and highly stylized choreography, that would be terrific, but that may be asking a bit too much! - GMB |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Last Edit: keikekaze 07:37 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 07:34 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 04:52 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| I too am extremely fond of the whole kit of "classic" musicals, from the full orchestras playing the six-minute overtures to the 32-voice choruses to the scenes and songs "in one." But it isn't really necessary to write Fifties pastiche to write a good musical--not even a good musical of the kind you're describing. What you want (I think) is the wit, the literacy, the daring, the cheek, the imagination and the satire so often applied to the contemporary world in Fifties musicals to be applied to the contemporary world of the 21st century--but melodically, and with lyrics that scan and rhyme properly. That's what I want, anyway. And actually, it's the melodic music and the cleverly, properly constructed and still character-driven lyrics that are the ***easy*** part. They're not as hard as all that to write, and there are always at least dozens of people working who are capable of doing it at a Broadway level. (If the writing were as hard as all that, there would not have been dozens of different people in the Forties and Fifties capable of doing it so well.) It doesn't require "genius"--just literacy, verbal dexterity, application, and the determination not to settle for the first thing that falls into your head. Right now, we've got Yazbek, Michael Korie, Scott Frankel, Jeffrey Stock, Susan Birkenhead and others already named in this thread, as well as many more people, no doubt, that I'm not aware of. Yes, I'd love to see that type of musical come back. It will come back, I think, when there's an audience that demands it. The audience in the Forties and Fifties didn't want to see the same old Shubert operettas anymore--or anybody else's operettas. That audience demanded new (more than anything), and if they also got ground-breaking and genre-expanding as well, then so much the better. We'll see the next big step forward in Broadway musicals when the audience demands it. That may happen when they get tired of the same old Lloyd Webber operettas, the pointless Disney/kiddie musical commodities, and the ancient song catalogues of decrepitating pop idols. |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 07:58 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - keikekaze 07:34 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| Great thoughts. I agree that both you and I do want that level of writing, and if we're fair to the guy, that level of writing is exactly why HAMILTON became such a smash success. The writing really is that good. But Lynn Ahrens always talks about how the restrictions and limitations of a genre are what invite real creativity; artists who are only given 3 colors of crayons are forced to get more creative than those who get all 64. And that's why I'd enjoy seeing some of the writers you mention -- or others whom I may not be familiar with -- try to do it. I'd love to see them write within the restrictions of a previous era. If I'm honest with myself, what I really really really want are are gorgeous melodies. I have a hard time understanding why some of our greatest living melodists -- John Williams, Paul McCartney -- don't write musicals. - GMB |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:18 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 07:58 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| It may be that Williams and McCartney don't have a lot of interest in writing musicals. Williams did write one, Thomas and the King, produced in 1975 in the West End. It flopped. Writing musicals is tough, it's collaborative, composers often have to put their egos aside for the good of the show. It's not for everyone. You work hard for at least a year, often for several years, and it flops. I think it's easy to understand why Williams hasn't written another. The surprise isn't that more people don't write them. The surprise is that so many people do. | |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:48 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:46 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - AlanScott 08:18 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| Totally had no idea about that John Williams musical. Wow. We've certainly seen any number of talented melodists try, right? I think Paul Simon is a damn good songwriter. I'd say the same for Sting. And the dudes from ABBA. Alas. I'd probably label some of the flaws of KINKY BOOTS, AIDA, BIG RIVER, and THE SECRET GARDEN as rookie mistakes that are only to be expected from pop writers, and I'd probably attribute those shows' successes to be more the result of a great team of collaborators rather than the pure strength of the composition. But to bring this back to the original topic, nearly ALL of those pop writers -- when interviewed about why they wanted to write a musical -- referenced growing up with musicals from the Golden Age and always dreaming how much they'd love to write a musical one day. I hate to say it, but I really do still feel like that output represents the purest and best version of the art form. - GMB |
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| For the record, Paul McCartney IS writing a musical | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:25 pm EDT 08/27/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 08:46 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| Link | Variety: Paul McCartney Has Been Secretly Writing 'It's a Wonderful Life' Musical |
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| WHOA! I hadn't seen this! That's exciting! (nm) | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:57 am EDT 08/29/19 | |
| In reply to: For the record, Paul McCartney IS writing a musical - WaymanWong 03:25 pm EDT 08/27/19 | |
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| nm means nasty misterpotter | |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: MattPhilly 06:05 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 04:52 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| I agree with you on all of this, and yes, the time is now to do it! One of the reasons I love the Golden Age musicals is that they are such well fleshed out stories with great characters, not to mention the music that enhanced those stories. Let's hope that some musical theatre makers are reading this thread! | |
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| re: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? | |
| Posted by: everybody_rise 03:59 pm EDT 08/26/19 | |
| In reply to: On PASTICHE: is anyone trying to write a new 'Golden Age' musical these days? Would we pay to see one? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:43 am EDT 08/26/19 | |
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| I'd certainly support a show in that style. Those are typically my favorite types of musicals, though I have great affection for most of post-60s Sondheim. | |
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