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| Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical | |
| Posted by: aleck 04:28 pm EDT 08/30/19 | |
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| (There are spoilers below.) No previous knowledge of Oklahoma at age 70? Can you believe it? I didn't. I took a long-time friend to see Oklahoma last night (my third visit). Beforehand, I tried to warn him of the changes in approach that he would face. Then, I find out that he had absolutely no previous encounter with the musical. He was unaware of the plot, the characters, the time of the setting and only vague awareness of SOME of the songs. He certainly had no knowledge of the context of the songs. I knew that he had little knowledge of the theatre in general. But Oklahoma? I just assumed . . . How could you live 70 years and avoid knowing something about it? Moreover, this is someone who was raised in an affluent, educated New York Jewish household. And little awareness of the theatre? I'm wondering now if he is just trying to pass as Jewish. Nevertheless, his reaction, a priori, to this production. Well, he was stunned. Basically, "Everything is so complex. I'd have to see it again. Men with the women. Men vs. men. Control over the land. The relationships of the group to the outsiders. All was double-edged, even the comedy." I explained that in THIS production everything is double-edged, but not in any other production of the musical I had seen in the past. When I told him, for example, that Poor Jud is Dead is normally played as a comic number he looked puzzled and said "How?" I guess this production is the standard upon which he would judge all other productions, just as others who are familiar with earlier productions, including the movie, color the expectations when coming into this production. He was sensitive to the "Persian" peddler as a stand-in for a stereo-typed Jewish character. He knew that Oscar Hammerstein was Jewish, but did not know that Richard Rodgers was as well. He asked: "Why were these Jews writing about country people in Oklahoma?" He was not aware that most creators of musicals of the Golden Age were Jewish (with the exception of Cole Porter) and that a similar question was asked of Gershwin when he wrote Porgy and Bess. While he didn't know the musical, he had a very full knowledge of the history of the state of Oklahoma, including the Native American part of the origin story of the state. After the performance, I suggested, as I did earlier on this board (and thanks for all the flaming), that the Native American dynamic was the one thing missing in this provocative production and that it could be addressed by casting a Native American in the role of Jud. Although he thought the text could support a justification for such casting, he was horrified by the thought; "That would make my head explode. It's already too complex. If a Native American Jud was shot dead at the end, the audience would scream and tear down the walls." (I guess we don't want that. It would be so time-consuming to clean up after every performance . . .) And about the condition of the production compared to what I saw in June. I liked seeing it for a third time and noticing more of the little details that are going on around the main action. For example, at the end when almost everyone is singing about "everything going my way" the actor playing the Marshall goes over to Laurie and they have an extended (unheard) serious discussion. After this discussion, Laurie never joins the group again and never is seen at Curley's side. Instead, she stands at the rear with a troubled look on her blood-spattered face while Curly's blood-splattered expression is one of aggressive triumph. There are many, many other little details like this that can be spotted throughout. Boy, was this material mined! I'm sorry to say that the performance since June has deteriorated a bit. I was disappointed to find that Curly has apparently added more "country" riffs into his vocals, making the "country" infusion sounding more like a pastiche instead of something more subtlety organic as it seemed a few months ago. But mostly I was disappointed that the clarity of the delivery of the dialog and lyrics that I found so fantastic two months ago has become somewhat sloppy. There was clearly an original effort to have the actors hit those final consonants of every word very hard. While we know this is artificial, it can be very helpful to audience understanding of the dialog and lyrics. Now, in a lot of critical areas, the young cast has slipped away from that consonant emphasis. For example, Ado Annie's great song line "What you goin' to do when he talks that way? Spit in his eye?" Then, a big laugh. Last night, however, the actress did not hit the "t" in spit and the line came out swallowed as "Spinhiseye?" No laugh. The audience simply didn't hear the line right. Another critical point in the second act, the peddler (an ineffective understudy) missed the line when calling after Will when Will was "Going to save your wife from getting killed." The peddler yells out to Will: "Mind your own business." Big laugh. But last night the actor didn't hit the "d" in mind or the final "s"in business so it was a slurred "Mine yr own busine" No laugh. Few people understood what was said. I found these faltering diction issues troubling throughout. in both song and dialog. Also, on first viewing I thought "Someone has finally got Mary Testa under control." Well, she's not under control any more. While all this was somewhat disappointing (but not catastrophic) the performance by the actor as Jud has deepened. It is now a quieter and more desperately painful expression. My 70-year-old friend found the part -- and the performance -- as overshadowing all else. (I don't know how this actor can muster up those flood of tears during his video close up in Poor Jud is Dead. As first, I thought this must be a prerecorded video that is projected. But, no, this was live. This actor must be drawing on something very deep and very dark to deliver this -- a well as the rest of his amazing performance.) I think it kind of puts the production out of balance as the other performances have not fully kept up. But, despite these issues, I can't wait to see it again. There is so much here to admire and to contemplate. |
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| re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical | |
| Posted by: cmleidi 10:52 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical - aleck 04:28 pm EDT 08/30/19 | |
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| I'm a 33 year-old gay man, and I know next to nothing about Oklahoma or Carousel. I often get what I think are the plots mixed up (an abusive husband is stabbed by his wife is one of the endings I think). As much as I love theatre and musicals, I can't say I've ever had a desire to either musical or their respective films. I don't know why the two shows don't appeal to me or why I've never done more research on them. I suppose I see them as "farm musicals" so that might be why? I know I should see them just to say I've seen them, but I haven't yet. | |
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| re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:58 pm EDT 09/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical - cmleidi 10:52 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| I suppose I see them as "farm musicals" so that might be why? Farm musicals? Never heard that term before lol. If you're referring to settings, Carousel has nothing to do with farms. |
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| re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical | |
| Last Edit: Unhookthestars 05:58 pm EDT 09/01/19 | |
| Posted by: Unhookthestars 05:57 pm EDT 09/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical - Chromolume 01:58 pm EDT 09/01/19 | |
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| Although I wouldn’t have called it that, I sort of get what the original poster means by “farm” musical if we take “farm” as shorthand for “rural” (i.e., a story set in a farm, on a ranch, by the seaside, etc.). | |
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| re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 10:23 pm EDT 09/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical - Unhookthestars 05:57 pm EDT 09/01/19 | |
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| My father was a sailor stationed in NYC for 6 months in 1943. As a serviceman he was treated to quite a few Broadway shows. He saw Oklahoma a few weeks after the opening. I was shocked to learn that he didn’t care for it! “ I was from the Midwest and I wanted to see the glamorous society life of Cole Porter not cowboys and farmers and girls in gingham.” | |
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| re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical | |
| Posted by: stevemr 12:53 pm EDT 09/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical - cmleidi 10:52 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| You should see them because both are innovative landmarks, and Carousel may be one of the greatest musicals ever written. Neither has any gay-theme appeal, though, so you should discover them because you love musicals, not because you are gay. (BTW, no wife stabs her husband in either show.) | |
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| re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical | |
| Posted by: OldTheaterGuy 05:26 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical - aleck 04:28 pm EDT 08/30/19 | |
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| Two comments on your fascinating post: Despite everyone’s insistence, Oscar Hammerstein was NOT Jewish. His father’s family was Jewish, but his mother was Christian and he was raised in her church. He was rather emphatic about this. In the play, Green Grows the Lilac, Jud/Jeeter was described as half-Native American (actually the very politically incorrect “half-breed”). Hammerstein made the decision to eliminate that aspect of the character. |
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| re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:13 am EDT 09/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical - OldTheaterGuy 05:26 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| Can you point me to where that is in the play because I don't see it? As noted here recently, it's considered a point of pride in the play to be partly Native American. |
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| re: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical | |
| Last Edit: mikem 04:32 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| Posted by: mikem 04:28 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical - aleck 04:28 pm EDT 08/30/19 | |
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| Aleck, thank you for your very interesting observations. Based on my first visit to the show a few weeks ago, I'm not surprised to hear that Mary Testa's performance was more disciplined before. I also agree with you that Patrick Vaill's performance sticks out. It feels very lived-in and real, while other parts of the show felt very artificial, with flat line readings (not just at the trial) and lack of connection with the others on stage. In particular, the first scene between Curly and Laurey has no oomph to it at all. I did not get the sense that either character had an actual interest in the other character as a person, which may be part of the idea, but the inconsistency contributed to a general feeling I had that the production was very muddled. Now that some time has gone by since I saw it, I appreciate the production more, but I don't like the lack of cohesion. |
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| Thanks for sharing this. | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 10:16 am EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: Oklahoma: The reaction of a 70-year-old who had no previous knowledge of the musical - aleck 04:28 pm EDT 08/30/19 | |
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| If one wanted to, how would you find a 70-year-old New Yorker (and Jewish at that) who had never seen "Oklahoma!"? And wow, how open he was to this challenging, in the least, production. | |
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| re: Thanks for sharing this. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:07 am EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: Thanks for sharing this. - tmdonahue 10:16 am EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| I'm scratching my head just a little at the Jewish references here (I'm Jewish, btw). I can't say I've ever thought of Oklahoma being something all Jews are supposed to know about. (Fiddler perhaps, lol, but Oklahoma?) Perhaps it might seem odd for a 70-year old New Yorker to not have such exposure to the Broadway scene - but not everyone is into theatre (we forget this fact out here). We might even be more shocked to find out that there are certainly GAY men who have never seen Oklahoma. OMG, how can it possibly be??!! ;-) Not that this is such a big deal, but I'm trying not to see this as some form of stereotyping or microagression that we're really expecting all older NY Jews to have seen and have knowledge of classic musicals. But I have to say it feels that way. I'm not casting aspersions here, just finding it a bit curious. |
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| I apologize. | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 12:14 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Thanks for sharing this. - Chromolume 11:07 am EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| I was exercising a stereotype that the Broadway theater audience was largely Jewish. That was a stereotype that isn't true, except to the extent that there are a greater percentage of Jews in New York than anywhere else in the US. But your GAY stereotype: I am gay and I've met men who do not give a fig for the theater. They've "dined with me, and even twice." |
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| re: I apologize. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:29 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: I apologize. - tmdonahue 12:14 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| But I hope you do realize that I was throwing the gay stereotype in there to further the argument, and to have a little fun with the whole thing. (I was hoping that would come through in the way I was writing, etc.) I certainly didn't mean it seriously. I, in turn, am sorry if it was taken a different way. | |
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| Oklahoma Jewish | |
| Posted by: aleck 03:38 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: re: I apologize. - Chromolume 12:29 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| That there is a long and historically well-established special relationship between the Jewish community and the theatre is no question -- on both sides of the footlights. Entire books have been written on the subject and it need not be thrashed out here. However, within the Oklahoma story -- by that I mean the musical -- it is kind of interesting. My Jewish friend last night zeroed in immediately on the peddlar character as being a representation of a stereotyped comic Jewish character. Indeed, in the original production the first actor to play that role was a well-known actor from the Yiddish theatre. (In the original source play for this musical, Green Grow the Lilacs, the role of the peddler was played by Lee Strasberg, who is and was widely known to be Jewish.) Now, I don't know if either of these actors played the role with a Yiddish accent, but I wouldn't be surprised. (The current production doesn't give a hint of any of that.) How did the original audience react to this? Were the Jewish members of the audience amused or were they offended? After all, I assume most of them knew that the creators were Jewish. I think the reaction might have been a little of both. But I don't know. Having seen many Neil Simon plays in their original productions that wore their Jewish origins on their sleeves, I thought that they pandered to the Jewish section of the audience who seemed to laugh when some Yiddish word or stereotypical Jewish characteristic was injected. Perhaps, because of ever greater sensitivity to these characterizations, that you rarely see Neil Simon plays produced much any more. I don't know. Which leads to: What do Mormons think of Book of Mormon? |
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| re: Oklahoma Jewish | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:29 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: Oklahoma Jewish - aleck 03:38 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| Whether Ali Hakim was supposed to be Jewish pretending to be Persian was discussed several times that I remember some years back on this board. More recently, I think it came up briefly again. The character in Green Grow the Lilacs was clearly not meant to be Jewish posing as Persian. Lynn Riggs describes the character as being Syrian, and most of the principal characters in the play, including the Peddler, were based on real people. I would be pretty certain that Lee Strasberg played the character as Syrian. The role was expanded considerably for Oklahoma and made far more comic. Indeed, yes, the character in the musical is clearly a descendant of the "Dutch comic" tradition, which means Jewish. It's not so clear, however, that the character was meant to be perceived as Jewish even if Joseph Buloff played him with a Yiddish accent, as I suspect he did. I think I have come across at least one review of one of the replacement or tour actors in which it was said that the character was clearly Jewish pretending to be Persian, but I don't think that was the intention in 1943. Unfortunately, we may never know at this point. Most of the actors who played the role during the run of the original Broadway production, the major and long-lived national tour (sometimes considered several tours because breaks were taken a couple of times) and I think even the London production were Jewish. |
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| re: Oklahoma Jewish | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:03 pm EDT 09/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma Jewish - AlanScott 04:29 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| "It's not so clear, however, that the character was meant to be perceived as Jewish even if Joseph Buloff played him with a Yiddish accent, as I suspect he did." Wouldn't you say that the recording of "It's a Scandal! It's a Outrage" by Buloff for the second volume of the original Broadway cast album of OKLAHOMA! gives clear evidence of the accent he used for the role? I would, especially since he actually speaks the lyrics of the song to music, rather than singing any of it. |
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| re: Oklahoma Jewish | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:14 am EDT 09/02/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma Jewish - Michael_Portantiere 11:03 pm EDT 09/01/19 | |
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| Absolutely. That skipped my mind for some reason. | |
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| re: Oklahoma!: Ali, oops | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 12:25 am EDT 09/01/19 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 12:25 am EDT 09/01/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma Jewish - AlanScott 04:29 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| I found it disappointing that Daniel Fish didn't cast an actor of color to play Ali Hakim, the Persian peddler. The 2002 Broadway revival featured Aasif Mandvi, and the 2010 Arena Stage revival featured Nehal Joshi. |
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| re: Oklahoma Jewish | |
| Posted by: aleck 05:21 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma Jewish - AlanScott 04:29 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| I had a friend who attended the opening night of the original production because her mother was the vocal coach for Alfred Drake and Celeste Holm. While she sometimes spoke about how thrilling that opening night was, we never got around to talking about this point of whether the audience perceived the peddler as Jewish or not. (Sadly, she is no longer with us.) I think that audiences come in with some knowledge and preconceptions of these things -- especially then -- and react accordingly. I don't think it was an accident that someone so well-known from the Yiddish theatre was cast in that part. It had to be part of the texture of the production. But, then, the original "Billy" (or Liliom) in Liliom was Joseph Schildkraut, who, too, was known as a Jewish actor. What dynamic did that bring to the production for the audience of the time? Audiences DO make judgments based on these things. Even today. |
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| Italian Americans in Oklahoma! | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 06:48 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: re: Oklahoma Jewish - aleck 05:21 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| When we did it in high school, our Ali Hakim was Italian American--a guy by the name of Dan Castellaneta. And our Laurey was also Italian American--she went by the name Mary Mastrantonio (she added the Elizabeth, her middle name, when she started performing professionally). Our Dream Laurey was Greek American, with the lovely name Helene Alexopoulos (I doubt many high schools had a Dream Laurey who was studying with Maria Tallchief and would go on to be a soloist with the New York City Ballet). I, alas, was only in the chorus (though I had a name--"Chalmers"--and played the fiddle break for the dance in "The Farmer and the Bowman"). I did get to pair up briefly for the walk-on for the "Many a New Day," escorting another chorus member on for her to serve as back-up--her name was Kathy Griffin. She had fiery red hair and a tongue to match. Wonder what ever happened to any of these folk? Yes, it was a suburban public high school--west of Chicago--back when towns were willing to pay school taxes to support the arts! |
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| Quite a cast! | |
| Posted by: stevemr 08:15 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: Italian Americans in Oklahoma! - BruceinIthaca 06:48 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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| That has to have been one of the most "star-studded" high school productions ever in a public, non-arts centered school. | |
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| OH, I was laughing. Hard to tell on the internet. | |
| Posted by: tmdonahue (tmdonahue@yahoo.com) 12:51 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
| In reply to: re: I apologize. - Chromolume 12:29 pm EDT 08/31/19 | |
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