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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:26 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - StaunchKarakter 12:11 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| The insipid folks at ABC lowered the keys for Kristin Chenoweth (!) when she played Marian in that horrible Matthew Broderick adaptation some years ago. Apparently the powers that be thought people's ears might be too sensitive to hear a soprano's high notes as written. Sutton had a good high note at the end of "The Show-off" in "Drowsy Chaperone", but her voice doesn't appear to live in (or be most comfortable in) that tessitura. I was thinking most likely they'd lower the keys as well. | |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: hanon 11:54 am EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - PlayWiz 12:26 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| The “as written” part of the question is weird to me. Meredith Willson didn’t write the songs in a specific key, those keys were adjusted for Barbara Cook. If Sutton had played the role originally, the songs would have been set in her keys. | |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:41 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - hanon 11:54 am EST 02/13/20 | |
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| "The 'as written' part of the question is weird to me. Meredith Willson didn’t write the songs in a specific key, those keys were adjusted for Barbara Cook. If Sutton had played the role originally, the songs would have been set in her keys." You have a good point, but still, I think it's common to use the phrase "as written" in referring to the way a song is written in the show's vocal score, in terms of both the arrangement and the key. Also, unless Willson or Cook were ever quoted on this, do we have any way of knowing whether he wrote Marian's songs in those specific keys because that's where he wanted them? I would think, for example, that there isn't much latitude regarding the key for "Lida Rose/Will I Ever Tell You," because Marian needs to sing it in counterpoint with the barbershop quartet. Do we know how early in the creative process was Cook cast? |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 04:08 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:02 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - Michael_Portantiere 03:41 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| but still, I think it's common to use the phrase "as written" in referring to the way a song is written in the show's vocal score, in terms of both the arrangement and the key. The published or leased vocal score is usually the standard by default, because that's what's available. However, vocal scores may often be the product of changes made on tour, etc - they don't always reflect the keys sung by the original cast. Gypsy is a good example - the score does not use Merman's keys. (I didn't really thoroughly understand this process until reading the Suskin orchestration book, but he made it clear.) I don't know the evolution of the score vs. casting in Music Man, but "Lida Rose" could have easily been arranged/voiced differently to work in another key, so that may not actually be an issue with "Will I Ever Tell You." We're just so used to hearing the original cast key that it would seem odd to conceive of a different arrangement. I understand that Sondheim first heard Fosca in his head as a soprano, and began writing with that in mind. Then he heard Donna Murphy, and everything changed. ;-) And yes, though most of the time I support transposing when necessary. sometimes the results are unfortunately awkward. The original version of "Will-A-Mania" in The Will Rogers Follies is in a bright D major/B minor (as recorded on the OBCR), but the available rental version takes it down a major third to Bb major/G minor - I am thinking this was done when Marla Maples took over the role, and then that key was also used on tour. Not only does the key not sound as bright, but the orchestrations and choral voicings (including the quartet) were drastically changed to work better in the new key. I can't tell you how much I hate the way it sounds. (Even the intro to the song was awkwardly changed because the clarinets can't go as low as would be necessary - and it always sounds weird to me.) When I did the show back in 2003 I took on the burden of transposing the song back up - all parts by hand - just because I hated the new key so much. I'll step off my soapbox now, lol. |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:20 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - Chromolume 04:02 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| I think that the published and licensed Gypsy keys for Rose's songs represent what Merman sang starting a few months into the run, after a blood vessel in her throat hemorrhaged during a performance and she had to miss seven performances. I think I've been told that the keys in the published and licensed materials are generally a half-step lower than what is heard on the cast recording except for "Some People," which is a full step lower. If that's true, it suggests at least the possibility that "Some People" was lowered a second time. Of course, we've discussed here many times the fact that published and licensed materials often reflect changes made during a run or during a post-Broadway tour rather than what was performed on opening night. On June 10, 1957, it was mentioned in the Times that Barbara Cook was under serious consideration to play Marian, at which time the producers were waiting to hear back from an offer made to Andy Griffith to play Harold Hill. I would think that even if keys for Marian's songs (and the songs in general) were not definitively decided till after the casting was done or not even till rehearsals, it was expected that Marian's songs would be in Broadway-soprano keys. Of course, some of the score was trunk material, and the first recording of what was then called "Till I Met You" (linked) was in a lower key. But I feel pretty confident that whoever was cast as Marian was going to be a soprano. In musical-theatre terms, the character is a soprano Having said that about a character being a "soprano character," it's interesting that Dolores Grey was an early possibility for Eliza Doolittle, but that was several years before My Fair Lady finally happened. Also, Ethel Merman was offered Sarah Brown, but again that was in a very early projected version of the show that was probably closer to the source material. It's not all that hard to imagine Merman as the Sarah Brown of "The Idyll of Miss Sarah Brown." |
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| Link | Eileen Wilson: Till I Met You |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 05:03 pm EST 02/14/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - AlanScott 05:20 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| "I think I've been told that the keys in the published and licensed materials are generally a half-step lower than what is heard on the cast recording except for "Some People," which is a full step lower. If that's true, it suggests at least the possibility that 'Some People' was lowered a second time." I have no idea about that, but of course, the orchestration of "Some People" heard on the cast album is, for some strange reason, completely different (and, in my opinion, far inferior) to the orchestration as heard in the theater and as published, as is also the case with some of the other songs on the GYPSY album. So I wouldn't be surprised if the keys are different as well. |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:28 pm EST 02/14/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - Michael_Portantiere 05:03 pm EST 02/14/20 | |
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| I would have to go back and look at "Some People" for specifics, but indeed, this kind of thing happens. Often, orchestrations get simplified a bit for tours (smaller numbers, but also eliminating some wind doublings and other changes that were thought would be more practical outside of the Broadway context), and these versions are then the ones that get licensed. Sometimes the score reflects those changes, sometimes not. Keys usually aren't changed unless the replacement/touring singers need them to be, but I suppose in some cases keys might also be rethought when the show is ready to be licensed. Occasionally, rental editions of scores come with a few key options for certain songs. |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:54 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - PlayWiz 12:26 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| I loved the belt section of My White Knight in the TV version. Thrilling. Til the others ride by! | |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Last Edit: JereNYC 12:49 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:42 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - PlayWiz 12:26 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| There was a good deal of discussion about this here when Foster's casting was announced. Some made the point that, just because we haven't heard this kind of singing as yet from Foster doesn't mean that she can't do it. Others made the assumption that keys would be lowered for her because, if she had that kind of voice in her, surely we'd have heard it by now, given that Foster has been a Broadway star for nearly 20 years at this point. The point was made that, if keys are being lowered specifically for Foster, that's kind of a shame given that casting her was unnecessary since the production will likely sell out completely on Jackman's name alone. And, since we know that to be the case, why not cast a lesser known or unknown actress who can sing the role and make her a star. Also it was pointed out that Marian's music is unique in the show for a reason and lowering the keys works against that dramatically and harms the character and the storytelling. But here's the thing...nobody here knows anything for sure and those that do know, likely the producers, the music staff of the production, and Foster herself aren't talking. If the keys are lowered, I will be curious to see if that is addressed by anyone in any way or if it will just be ignored. I was reminded this week of the 2000 revival by Rebecca Luker's sad health news. Whatever faults that production had, and it had many, Luker was in glorious voice and it was worth seeing just to hear her do the big numbers with her soaring soprano. |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 04:59 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:58 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - JereNYC 12:42 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| Luker was awesome. Most thought Audra couldn’t sing like Billie Holiday. Power balance would be too far off with an unknown going up against Jackman. A star is necessary. | |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:06 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - KingSpeed 04:58 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| You mean like Robert Preston and Barbara Cook? ;) I doubt anyone was complaining that that power balance was off. |
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| Barbara Cook was already a Broadway star | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 06:06 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - JereNYC 12:06 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| And Robert Preston wasn't a star on the level of Hugh Jackman. | |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:00 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - JereNYC 12:06 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| From other shows, I'd offer Rex Harrison and Julie Andrews as a good example. Harrison was a much bigger star in 1956 than Preston was in 1957, and although Andrews had made a splash in The Boy Friend, she was not as established or known here as Barbara Cook, and she certainly didn't have Cook's level of experience acting in musicals. Of course, we know that Harrison was unhappy with Andrews early in rehearsals, but all worked out well. Another example would be Gertrude Lawrence and Yul Brynner. |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 06:08 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - AlanScott 06:00 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| I was actually considering My Fair Lady when I made my post but Rex Harrison wasn't a movie star on the level of Hugh Jackman. | |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:31 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - KingSpeed 06:08 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| I agree that he was not a movie star on the level of Jackman, but he had starred in several Hollywood movies. That stopped (except for The Four Poster, a somewhat special case in a couple of ways) after the Carole Landis scandal. The scandal was certainly at least part of the reason why Unfaithfully Yours was a flop despite getting generally favorable reviews, with raves for Harrison. But Harrison continued as a theatre star and he was definitely a draw on Broadway and London in a way that Preston wasn't before The Music Man and never had been in Hollywood. Anyway, I think Osnes, say, is a big enough name and experienced enough performer to have been cast as Marian here, but I would think that part of the reason for the casting of Foster is that she's 10 years older than Osnes. |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 08:32 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - AlanScott 06:31 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| I think one of their selling points is that all the leads have won Tonys. | |
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| re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:39 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - KingSpeed 08:32 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| Yes, I forgot about the selling point that six cast members have won Tonys. Although I doubt that the presence of any of those people is going to make a notable difference to ticket sales. | |
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| Luker | |
| Posted by: StaunchKarakter 12:54 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - JereNYC 12:42 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| Thanks for recapping all this. Not sure why I missed the discussion when she was first announced. Re Rebecca Luker - oh yes! When I saw that production I had only seen the original film and didn't know "My White Knight" even existed. I'll never forget the thrilling feeling in my chest as she knocked that song outta the park in front of the set of her house. Chills when she sang that final "til I die!" |
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| re: Luker | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:31 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: Luker - StaunchKarakter 12:54 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| Interestingly, the first section of "My White Knight" was lowered considerably for that Broadway revival of THE MUSIC MAN with the great Rebecca Luker -- obviously NOT because she couldn't sing it in the original key, but apparently under the theory that the final section of the song, which I believe was sung in the original key (or if not, very close to it), would be more effective if it was built up to in that way. Indeed, Luker's "till I die" was thrilling. | |
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| i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 12:49 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 12:45 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Can SUTTON sing THE MUSIC MAN as written? - JereNYC 12:42 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| For the exact point you made. Not to mention that not only do I think Sutton can't sing this role as written, I think she is miscast for it. But putting that aside, as it is not everyone's opinion, but the real point is that it's VERY rare for a broadway show to be a sure-fire hit on the name of one lead actor alone, and this was a chance to discover and/or enormously propel the career of someone who isn't a name and hasn't had a star career at all let alone for almost 20 years. And whether it meant casting an unknown or a stalwart broadway actress, either way I'd love to hear the role sung as written. |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:02 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Chazwaza 12:45 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| Unknown actors rarely become stars going up against a star. There’s a power imbalance when that happens and the star sucks all the energy out of the pairing. | |
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| UH.....Kelly O'Hara anyone? nm | |
| Posted by: Genealley 02:04 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Chazwaza 12:45 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| nm | |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: broadwaybacker 01:39 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Chazwaza 12:45 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| Not than she's either an unknown (at least in our world) or a potential rising star, but I once asked Laura Osnes what role, of any in the history of Broadway musical theater, she'd most like to play. Her answer was "Marion". | |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: winters 06:56 am EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - broadwaybacker 01:39 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| Given that Foster is talented and could surprise my limited imagination of her in the role (Sorry. I am not the biggest fan. I find her ‘the same’ in most of the roles she plays, including television.)... I would much rather see Osnes as Marion. Jackman, also a good pick, will sell the tickets....Osnes will sing it...beautifully. | |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:13 am EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - winters 06:56 am EST 02/13/20 | |
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| Is the character now a librarion? ;-) | |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: Ann 09:19 am EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Chromolume 09:13 am EST 02/13/20 | |
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| The character is now based on John Wayne. Go. | |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 04:11 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:04 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Ann 09:19 am EST 02/13/20 | |
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| I'm imagining something about a Wells Fargo stagecoach...but maybe someone else (Laura? GrumpyMorningBoy?) should take the reins from here...;-) However, I think if she's Marion, then he has to be Harald. ;-) |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:28 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Chromolume 04:04 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| I posted this earlier, but it didn't appear for some reason: I've always found it interesting that the screenplay for the film of THE MUSIC MAN was written by Marion Hargrove, whom I had always assumed was a woman until I found out otherwise quite recently. But I believe some women named Marion do spell it that way, rather than the more common Marian. |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 05:56 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Michael_Portantiere 04:28 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| Marion Davies spelled it that away. She had a substantial career on Broadway over a hundred years ago. | |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:36 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Michael_Portantiere 04:28 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| I do think it can be spelled both ways for women. But it's clear that Ms. Paroo uses the "a" version. :-) | |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: Ann 04:46 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Chromolume 04:36 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| Otherwise, she'd be a librarion. | |
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| re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:22 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - Ann 04:46 pm EST 02/13/20 | |
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| Didn't I already say that, lol? ;-) | |
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| Gender-flipped Music Man! | |
| Posted by: Ann 01:52 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: re: i do REALLY wish they'd have cast an unknown or barely broken rising star as Marion - broadwaybacker 01:39 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| It's the thing. | |
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| re: Gender-flipped Music Man! | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 05:11 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
| In reply to: Gender-flipped Music Man! - Ann 01:52 pm EST 02/12/20 | |
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| On an episode of WILL AND GRACE, Grace's mom, a star of her local community theater, was in rehearsal for "The Music Woman." God, I miss Debbie Reynolds. | |
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