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| Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 03:17 am EST 02/20/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:15 am EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Mack & Mabel tonight. - lowwriter 02:16 am EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Looking back, I see ''Mack and Mabel'' got 8 Tony nominations in 1975, including Best Musical and Book, but pointedly not Score. This show famously has book problems, but that was such a gigantic snub of Jerry Herman's tuneful songs, like ''I Won't Send Roses.'' Here's what WAS nominated for Score: ''The Wiz,'' which won; ''Shenandoah,'' ''A Letter From Queen Victoria'' and ''The Lieutenant.'' I've never heard the music to the latter two shows. Could they have been that much better than ''Mack and Mabel''? |
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| Link | N.Y. City Center posts highlights from 'Mack and Mabel' at Encores! |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: Delvino 08:58 am EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - WaymanWong 03:15 am EST 02/20/20 | |
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| It was clear out of town -- I saw it at the Kennedy Center, and was in my early 20s -- that the score was a keeper. You knew right away with "Look What Happened to Mabel," which Peters endearingly knocked out over our heads in the Opera House. The show felt out of focus, bloated, and digressive at times. But the songs, we knew right then, were great show music. I remember feeling "meh" but "can't wait to get the album." | |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: Ned3301 04:21 am EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - WaymanWong 03:15 am EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Some forces connected with the Tonys were presumably using the Best Score award to attack Jerry Herman and nominating more or less anything other than Mack and Mabel, to spite him. A Letter For [sic] Queen Victoria was not even a musical, but rather another of Robert Wilson's tedious plays with incidental music. I don't remember any songs in it at all. The Lieutenant got a cast album that was not released, and I'll leave it to others to comment on its qualifications for a Tony award. But to scorn Mack and Mabel, arguably among Herman's best work, reminds us how unstable the whole awards system is. |
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| the Tonys and Jerry Herman | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:15 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - Ned3301 04:21 am EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Go figure. One of his best scores isn't nominated out of some spite, and then Sondheim who the Tonys generally adore writes one of his best and it loses to a Herman score that is wonderful but I don't even think as good M&M. What caused such spite for Herman at this time? |
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| re: the Tonys and Jerry Herman | |
| Posted by: simbo 05:51 am EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: the Tonys and Jerry Herman - Chazwaza 05:15 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| I think you're assuming that the Tony voters in 1975 and 1984 were the same people. And I get the feeling Herman had fallen a lot out of fashion by 75 (it's almost impossible to imagine if it had been nominated, it wouldn't have lost to "The Wiz" anyway,). There was a slight feeling from the older members that he was a bit of a latterday arrival who hadn't quite earned his stripes (after all, from "Dolly" he'd been successfully sued for plagarism on the title song and also had an interpolation with "Elegance"), and from the younger members that he was out of touch with contemporary music. His last successful show was already 9 years in the past. And the show had been a fast-folding flop. It's not right, and it's not kind, but it's the case that some scores just aren't appreciated in their time. And Herman was not the kind of composer the 1970s generally were looking for. |
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| re: the Tonys and Jerry Herman | |
| Last Edit: CCentero 10:11 am EST 02/23/20 | |
| Posted by: CCentero 09:59 am EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: the Tonys and Jerry Herman - simbo 05:51 am EST 02/23/20 | |
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| I agree with most of your assessment and would add that the old guard had suffered one failure after another during the time when Herman was riding high with two smash hits that contained songs that played endlessly on the radio and TV variety shows. The shows that toured and everyone wanted to do and in stock were Herman shows cheapened by aging stars. I don't think the Dolly plagiarism suit really figured into things all that much and it wasn't all that unusual for a show to contain one or two songs that were written by others. In any event, "Elegance" really isn't an important hit song that Herman got credit for. |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 10:12 am EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - Ned3301 04:21 am EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Assuming it's true, can you elaborate on why some forces associated with the Tonys wanted to spite Jerry Herman? Did he do something terrible around this time that warranted spite? It DOES seem, which such a tuneful score, that they were going out of their way to nominate anything but Mack and Mabel. | |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 10:55 am EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - EvFoDr 10:12 am EST 02/20/20 | |
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| I don't think there was any conspiracy to shut him out. But he had been hugely successful in the 60s with 2 shows that were seen as middle of the road star vehicles. Then came some big disappointments like DEAR WORLD and GRAND TOUR. I think he was perceived as passe in the world of Sondheim and pop rock musicals. How else could a show like THE LIEUTENANT (of which no one knows a single song) or a Robert Wilson piece with music could be nominated over a score like MACK AND MABEL? | |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: Jack1009 01:31 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - Billhaven 10:55 am EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Grand Tour came after Mack and Mabel | |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 01:42 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - Jack1009 01:31 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| You are right! Sorry. | |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:05 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - Billhaven 01:42 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| For the record, the Tonys DID nominate Jerry Herman for ''The Grand Tour'' at the 1979 ceremonies. But they managed to snub another noted theater composer that year: Marvin Hamlisch (and lyricist Carole Bayer Sager). ''They're Playing Our Song'' got 4 Tony nominations, including Best Musical, but its Score was passed over. Sager wasn't the only female snubbed here. So was Carol Hall for ''The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas.'' I wonder if ''Song'' was too pop for the Tony nominators, and ''Whorehouse'' was too country for their tastes. So who got nominated? ''Sweeney Todd,'' which won, along with ''The Grand Tour,'' ''Eubie!'' and ''Carmelina.'' |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: BillEadie 10:23 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - WaymanWong 03:05 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| And, as discussed a while back, the "Ballroom" score was also overlooked, despite a nomination for Best Musical and Best Book. Bill, in San Diego |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 11:40 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 11:39 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - BillEadie 10:23 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Yes, the 1979 Best Musical nominees matched up 4-for-4 for Best Book, but only ''Sweeney'' was nominated for Best Score. Usually, Best Score matches up a lot with the Best Musical nominees, but not on this occasion. Go figure. |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:13 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - WaymanWong 11:39 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| In 1964, 110 in the Shade got a best score nomination, while She Loves Me did not, while the latter was nominated for best musical, and the former was not. The following year, Golden Boy was nominated for best musical, but not best score. One of the four best musical nominees was Oh What a Lovely War, which was not eligible for best score. Nominations for best score went to Fiddler and Half a Sixpence, both nominated for best musical, and Do I Hear a Waltz? and Roar of the Greasepaint, neither of which was nominated for best musical. And, of course, in 1963, Sondheim was not nominated for this Forum score, even though the show won best musical. The score for Bravo Giovanni was nominated over Forum. And in 1984, The Tap Dance Kid was nominated for best musical but not for best score, while The Rink was nominated for score but not musical. I'm pretty sure there are others. |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:49 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - AlanScott 09:13 am EST 02/21/20 | |
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| No doubt there are others, where a Best Musical wasn't nominated for Best Score, or vice versa, but that wasn't my point. In 1979, it seemed unusual that 3 of the 4 nominees for Score came from shows that weren't up for Best Musical. It happened in 1981, too: ''Woman of the Year,'' ''Charlie & Algernon,'' ''Copperfield'' and ''Shakespeare's Cabaret.'' |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:59 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - WaymanWong 02:49 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| Sorry, Wayman. Didn't read carefully enough. | |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 11:20 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:17 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - AlanScott 09:13 am EST 02/21/20 | |
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| I think "Tap Dance Kid" could have been one of the great shows if it had a better score. It had a really good, affecting book, performances and choreography. "The Rink" has a really good score (with maybe one clinker in there), so I think the nominators got it right that year. | |
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| re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 11:17 am EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Look what happened to 'Mabel' in 1975 - Billhaven 10:55 am EST 02/20/20 | |
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| And oh how the pendulum swings---I guess they made it up to him in 1984 :-) | |
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