Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: Clancy 08:13 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| "Curiously unaffecting." | |
| Link | NYT ‘West Side Story’ Review: Sharks vs. Jets vs. Video |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: Cainebj 02:16 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - Clancy 08:13 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| I thought Brantley got it 100% WRONG. Best thing I have seen in ages and mind you I walked in thinking it was going to be a mess. Quite the opposite. Brilliant production brilliant cast. | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:56 am EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - Cainebj 02:16 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| Okay there's a lot to unpack here. What do you consider AGES? How old are you? And how often do you go to theater? On top of that, did Ben get it 100% wrong? It wasn't quite the polar opposite of a rave. | |
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| Pedantic Thinking | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 12:14 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:13 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - Clancy 08:13 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Or about what I expect from Brantley. Still, I'm a bit surprised he was so lukewarm on the singing. | |
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| The "power" of the Times? | |
| Posted by: aleck 03:22 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: Pedantic Thinking - Singapore/Fling 12:13 am EST 02/21/20 | |
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| I'm sure all of us can name many, many shows that the Times panned that became hits (Cats?) and many, many others that were praised and were flops (Honeymoon in Vegas, Groundhog Day, Tootsie, Side Show). The Times is irrelevant and even moreso today than say 20 years ago when the primary audience, especially in the early part of a run, was actual New Yorkers -- who read newspapers. Now, even more than ever, it's word of mouth (which killed Honeymoon, Groundhog, Tootsie and Side Show) and perceptions of tourists-- both domestic and foreign . Personally, I have found Brantley increasingly unreliable and Jesse even more so. Those raves for Honeymoon, etc. were egregious. So was the lukewarm reaction to Light in the Piazza. Still, I'm skipping WSS (unless someone hands me a free ticket) as I did Mockingbird and the second part of Inheritance since the first part was plenty enough. There are other more interesting things going on right now. I would put New York City Ballet at the top. They are dancing better this year than I can remember. Certainly better than five years ago and perhaps matching, if not exceeding, the glory years of the '70s. It's an amazing transformation. Maybe the specter of Peter Martin has been lifted and we're looking at a happier company reaching far beyond what has been seen there for too many years. |
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| I don't think word of mouth killed SIDE SHOW | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:36 am EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: The "power" of the Times? - aleck 03:22 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| For some reason, most people had no desire to see a musical about that subject matter. Even when you told them it was good. Especially in the case of the revival. | |
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| That reminds me of a variation of a Yogi Berra quote | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 12:24 am EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: I don't think word of mouth killed SIDE SHOW - KingSpeed 01:36 am EST 02/22/20 | |
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| ''If people don't want to come to a show, nobody's gonna stop 'em.'' | |
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| Well, no one went to see because of the words that came from MY mouth | |
| Posted by: aleck 09:21 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: I don't think word of mouth killed SIDE SHOW - KingSpeed 01:36 am EST 02/22/20 | |
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| For neither the original nor the revival. The show is a mess. | |
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| re: The "power" of the Times? | |
| Posted by: skier74 11:30 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: The "power" of the Times? - aleck 03:22 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| I'm sure all of us can name many, many shows that the Times panned that became hits (Cats?) and many, many others that were praised and were flops (Honeymoon in Vegas, Groundhog Day, Tootsie, Side Show). The Times is irrelevant Since when is the job of the TImes theatre critic to predict whether a show is going to be commercially successful or not? |
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| I would say that Rich gave Cats a generally favorable review | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 06:59 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:57 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: The "power" of the Times? - aleck 03:22 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| While Frank Rich's review of Cats was certainly not a rave, I'd say it was more favorable than not. It was somewhat mixed, but as with his later review of Kiss of the Spider Woman, it was the kind of mixed review that sends people to the theatre (or nowadays makes them contact the company they have to contact to get tickets). And I'd say that, if anything, his Cats was a bit more positive than his Spider Woman review. I'm linking his review, and I quote the first two paragraphs below. And the first couple of paragraphs are almost always the most important ones in any review. "THERE'S a reason why 'Cats,' the British musical which opened at the Winter Garden last night, is likely to lurk around Broadway for a long time - and it may not be the one you expect. "It's not that this collection of anthropomorphic variety turns is a brilliant musical or that it powerfully stirs the emotions or that it has an idea in its head. Nor is the probable appeal of 'Cats' a function of the publicity that has accompanied the show's every purr since it first stalked London 17 months ago. No, the reason why people will hunger to see 'Cats' is far more simple and primal than that: it's a musical that transports the audience into a complete fantasy world that could only exist in the theater and yet, these days, only rarely does. Whatever the other failings and excesses, even banalities, of 'Cats,' it believes in purely theatrical magic, and on that faith it unquestionably delivers." |
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| Link | Rich on Cats |
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| re: I would say that Rich gave Cats a generally favorable review | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:37 am EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: I would say that Rich gave Cats a generally favorable review - AlanScott 06:57 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| Wow. Thanks for sharing. That is a fantastic opening to a review. | |
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| OK. How about "Smokey Joe's Cafe" | |
| Posted by: aleck 08:13 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: I would say that Rich gave Cats a generally favorable review - AlanScott 06:57 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| A money review? | |
| Link | And then it ran over 2000 performances |
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| re: OK. How about "Smokey Joe's Cafe" | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 09:27 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:26 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: OK. How about "Smokey Joe's Cafe" - aleck 08:13 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| Yes, that's a much better example. And I think by 1995 the influence of the Times had already begun to lessen. Still, if you go back in time, you can find Atkinson raves not leading to even decent runs, and Atkinson negative reviews not killing a show if most of the other reviews were good and people wanted to see it. Goldman in The Season made a big thing out of The Rope Dancers running for six months thanks to Atkinson, but he said nothing about love from Atkinson not persuading enough people to buy tickets for The Grass Harp and Greenwillow. | |
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| Your post made my day | |
| Posted by: dczoo 05:25 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: The "power" of the Times? - aleck 03:22 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| I'm taking the train up from DC tomorrow to see WSS matinee for the second time and NYCB "Swan Lake" in the evening (although in this case, it's Martins' production, so I'm guessing his spirit is still hanging out). About Brantley's WSS review, I can't prove it, of course, but I'd bet about half of it was written before he left for the theater. And his analysis of the acting and choreography just feels lazy. Perhaps he's still recovering from jet lag. Peter Marks' in the Washington Post is an unqualified rave. |
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| And yet... | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 05:07 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: The "power" of the Times? - aleck 03:22 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| ... I'll bet producers of The Inheritance are still bemoaning Brantley's mixed review. | |
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| re: And yet... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:28 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: And yet... - MockingbirdGirl 05:07 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| and once again I am forced to say, there are no rules. Here is what we know: 1. Shows people want to see succeed without regard to anyone's review. 2. Shows people do not want to see fail without regard to anyone's review. 3. Shows that are flying under the radar (and this rarely if ever refers to a Broadway show, for obvious reasons) usually benefit from any review, good, bad, or indifferent. 4. Shows that are at the margins are most likely to see an effect (in some direction) from a review. But even these are not rules. |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 08:58 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - Clancy 08:13 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| good call, Ben. you can all skip this production. | |
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| I disagree | |
| Posted by: ADFeldman 10:43 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - manchurch03104 08:58 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| In fact, I was surprised to find the opposite: I cared about the central lovers more than I ever have. | |
| Link | Time Out: West Side Story review |
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| Astute Review | |
| Posted by: Clancy 02:06 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: I disagree - ADFeldman 10:43 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Mr. Feldman I found the revival not just often thrilling but thrilling. Agree that Pimentel's performance is the most fully realized Tony I've seen. Does the scant mention of Yesenia Ayala mean that her Anita didn't measure up? I loved the production's version of 'America.' |
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| Peter Marks in the Washington Post “You can teach an old show new kicks” | |
| Last Edit: BillyD 10:55 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| Posted by: BillyD 10:54 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: I disagree - ADFeldman 10:43 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| nm | |
| Link | Peter Marks on West Side Story |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:25 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - manchurch03104 08:58 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| I disagree with Ben (and I assume you) about the show itself, but even more so about skipping it. Even if you agree with Ben (and of course everyone gets to have their own opinion and they are certainly "mixed" both here and in these reviews) I think one skips this at one's peril. I think it is a significant and perhaps important piece of work that theatregoers should see, and I think Ben would agree with that. Incidentally, to the post just below (or it is above?) I don't think Ben's reaction to Ivo's plays is that good a predictor of how he would react to a musical of this stature. Go see it. Maybe this review will have the salutary effect of saving you a few drachma. | |
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| re: "peril"?? | |
| Posted by: Guillaume 10:47 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - ryhog 09:25 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| "I think one skips this at one's peril." I have no interest in seeing this. What is going to happen to me?! |
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| re: "peril"?? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 03:51 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: "peril"?? - Guillaume 10:47 am EST 02/21/20 | |
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| nothing that I know of. (It's an expression, btw :-) ) no one, not even this writer, is going to twist your arm. all of us skip things daily, but that of course doesn't mean we would not have been enriched had we not. [let me check something: 3 negatives=1 positive. good to go.] |
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| re: "peril"?? | |
| Posted by: Amiens 04:38 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: "peril"?? - ryhog 03:51 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| "Peril" is perhaps not the right term but I do believe that this revival of WSS, much like the Fish's Oklahoma!, will influence many revivals to come and how these musicals will be perceived in the future (for better or worse). I would think any serious theater goer would see them just to be informed. Mendes' Cabaret is another example of the rethinking of a classic piece that can never be ignored in any discussion of that show. I haven't seen this WSS yet but I will next week. I'm not sure I'll like it but I certainly am curious. Lack of curiosity is unhealthy. |
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| re: "peril"?? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:49 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: "peril"?? - Amiens 04:38 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| totally agree. (and "peril" was half tongue in cheek. if I had known it was going to take on a life of its own, I would have found something more inflammatory LOL) | |
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| re: "peril"?? | |
| Posted by: Guillaume 02:39 am EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: "peril"?? - ryhog 04:49 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
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| My perilous question was tongue in cheek also -- one doesn't very often get the chance to point out imprecision in your posts. As for this production, no thanks -- I've seen five shows with van Hove's irritating video distractions between here and Europe and I feel as if I have done my community service and gladly cede my place. |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: mikem 09:04 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - manchurch03104 08:58 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| This is a surprise to me. Brantley loves van Hove, even when others don't. He gave all 3 of his prior Broadway outings a Critic's Pick (A View from the Bridge, The Crucible, and Network). | |
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| Nowadays, we really have to take ticket prices into consideration | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 01:49 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - mikem 09:04 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| The question is not just is this worth seeing; the real question is is it worth hundreds of dollars to see it? | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: Tyger 10:28 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - mikem 09:04 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| I have a new-found respect for Ben Brantley. I assumed with Scott Rudin's ads filling the coffers of the New York Times' arts section every Sunday, they would be hesitant to give WSS anything but a rave. The fact that Brantley saw through the misguided vision of van Hove (whose work I usually admire) and the production's lack of focus and emotion gives me hope that objective criticism still exists. Bravo Ben. | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:41 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - Tyger 10:28 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Do you seriously think that NYTimes critics give a rat's ass about ad revenue? Seriously? Wow |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: Tyger 11:36 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - ryhog 10:41 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Yes, I seriously do. And I think it's stunningly naive to think otherwise. But Brantley spoke his truth and that's to be commended. | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: dczoo 05:32 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - Tyger 11:36 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| I've lived with a arts critic for a major daily for 40 years and I know for a fact that most of the time he hasn't a clue and/or couldn't care less what ads appear in his own paper. | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:53 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - Tyger 11:36 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| hmmm. sounds like a conspiracy theory. go forth and enjoy. Or you can learn about the culture about which you are making suppositions. Agree Ben spoke his truth. As he always does. And take plenty of grief here for it. LOL |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: nyc23 03:08 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - ryhog 11:53 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| I enjoy thinking about the Times’ critics looking at ad sales charts before they write a review. It unfortunately wouldn’t be a time consuming process. Wasn’t it Rudin that responded to a bad review in the ABC’s? (It wasn’t directed at Brantley, though.) On the other hand, I am a wee bit cynical about the assignment of feature articles in various publications... |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 10:42 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - ryhog 11:53 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Sometimes I actually agree with RYHOG 500%. | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:54 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - NewtonUK 10:42 am EST 02/21/20 | |
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| I will keep 400 of those percents on reserve for future use. :-) | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: schauspieler 11:16 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - ryhog 10:41 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| Besides, The Times allowed them to run those quotes about the play itself rather than ones about this production. So they are covered no matter what the consensus is, though from what I've seen it looks like Brantley is the outlier and most everyone else is very positive about the show. The one thing that tempts me is the singing and music production which everyone seems to agree is first rate. However I know I'd be so distanced by Van Hove's style that I will skip it. After three of his shows, I'm kind of done with him. Make way for the new! | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: mikem 12:29 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - schauspieler 11:16 pm EST 02/20/20 | |
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| I thought A View from the Bridge was great. I did not like The Crucible at all. I thought Cranston was fantastic in Network, but the production was bloodless. At least the video made sense with Network; it seems a less natural fit for West Side Story, at least on paper. | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: schauspieler 09:40 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - mikem 12:29 am EST 02/21/20 | |
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| Yes VIEW was excellent, but the shower of blood at the end was ridiculous imo and took me right out of the show. | |
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| re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY | |
| Posted by: dczoo 05:35 pm EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - mikem 12:29 am EST 02/21/20 | |
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| I agree with you on Bridge and Network; liked, didn't love Crucible; hated All About Eve and The Damned, but LOVED WSS and can't wait to see it again tomorrow. | |
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| Stay away from ALL ABOUT EVE | |
| Posted by: Genealley 01:10 am EST 02/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Brantley on WEST SIDE STORY - mikem 12:29 am EST 02/21/20 | |
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| The video conceit got real tired, real fast. | |
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