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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Last Edit: SCH 03:05 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| Posted by: SCH 03:05 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Zelgo 02:43 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Wouldn't she have equivalent vocabulary words in Spanish, her native language? I don't see why she wouldn't. And, wouldn't she be singing this song in Spanish, since she's singing it to other Spanish speakers? Much like all the characters in The Sound of Music are speaking and singing to each other in German, certainly. Therefore, I have never had a problem with Maria's wordplay. I never imagined, even though we are hearing an English version of what she is singing, that she's actually singing in English to the Spanish speaking characters around her. | |
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| I assume they are speaking Austrian | |
| Posted by: dramedy 05:49 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - SCH 03:05 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Not German until the nazis show up, who I doubt speak Austrian. | |
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| That's a strange assumption... | |
| Posted by: SCH 08:24 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: I assume they are speaking Austrian - dramedy 05:49 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Since the official language of Austria is German. | |
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| re: I assume they are speaking Austrian | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 05:53 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: I assume they are speaking Austrian - dramedy 05:49 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Um, dramedy, Austrians speak German. That was one of Adolf’s arguments for bringing the country into the Greater Reich. Laura |
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| it’s called Austrian German | |
| Last Edit: dramedy 12:48 am EST 02/23/20 | |
| Posted by: dramedy 12:47 am EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I assume they are speaking Austrian - showtunetrivia 05:53 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| It’s similar but not the same. There are places in the world where English isn’t spoken anymore like America. |
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| Link | https://blog.lingoda.com/en/german-dialects-vocabulary-differences |
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| re: it’s called Austrian German | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 01:32 am EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: it’s called Austrian German - dramedy 12:47 am EST 02/23/20 | |
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| Since their official language is German -- without qualifiers -- I'll go with the Austrian governments answer | |
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| re: it’s called Austrian German | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 10:51 am EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: it’s called Austrian German - StageDoorJohnny 01:32 am EST 02/23/20 | |
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| “Austrian German” is a dialect, not a separate language. What’s more, Captain Von Trapp was born a citizen of the multiethnic mess that was the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, in a region now part of Croatia. He went to the Naval Academy in Rijeka (aka Fiume, where my Nonna was born in 1906*). He lived and had kids born all over the map during the Empire and after the Great War. He didn’t buy the estate near Salzburg until 1924. Meanwhile, the place he was born, in the postwar redrawing of Europe, was now Italian, so he suddenly had Italian citizenship. That’s how he and his family left Austria, showing Italian papers and buying train tickets to Trieste. This lacks the dramatic flair of climbing the Alps while singing. Laura, who owns Georg’s memoirs (his accounts of life on a WWI sub make DAS BOOT look like a picnic, with a poorly educated, multiethnic crew that did all not speak German, and such terrible ventilation that people passed out all the time and sometimes died) *Nonna’s family were typical of the A-H Empire: Italian, Croatian, Slovene. They spoke Italian at home, but had to learn GERMAN and Magyar in school. She remembered when the Archduke was shot, not too far away in Sarajevo. |
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| re: it’s called Austrian German | |
| Posted by: CCentero 11:39 am EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: it’s called Austrian German - showtunetrivia 10:51 am EST 02/23/20 | |
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| Refresh my memory--didn't Georg buy everything with his wife's money? | |
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| The Whitehead torpedo | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 12:08 pm EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: it’s called Austrian German - CCentero 11:39 am EST 02/23/20 | |
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| His first wife was the granddaughter of Robert Whitehead, who invented the torpedo, first tested around 1860 in the bay at Fiume for the Austrian Navy. He developed it with a Italian who had been in the A-H Navy, and his son John. I don’t recall who John married (if she was British or not), but John’s daughter Agathe married Georg. Robert worked on commission for a lot of countries, but sold his patents to UK weapons manufacturer Vickers...and Agathe inherited a lot of money. Robert also had a daughter who married the Austrian who commanded the gunboat that tested the first torpedo. I have a spouse who does a lot of military history (including alternate history, like Germany winning the Great War, and fantasy retelling of the Balkan Wars, etc.). My collection of theatre books is impressive, but the military history here dwarfs it significantly. Laura, historian at large |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:30 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - SCH 03:05 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Yes, that makes full sense. Or we could also easily assume that since they are trying to assimilate to American culture and learn English that they are purposefully speaking English to each other even in non-mixed company, to get better. I don't think anything they say or any words she sings in this song are out of the realm of usage for a smart and curious girl who is actively learning the vocabulary of a new language she needs to speak to survive in a new place. I don't think her word play ever strikes me as too sophisticated or obscure for a ESL person. So either way it works. |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 03:43 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:39 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - SCH 03:05 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| I don't think even "alarming" and "charming" and their Spanish equivalents are 700-800 level vocabulary words on the SAT either, so I don't really understand Sondheim's embarrassment over his lyrics. Even someone without a college degree might from time to time speak a few words that contain an internal rhyme, too. It's a perfectly lovely song which works to lighten the mood for a few minutes before pretty much everything in Maria's world comes apart, which makes the contrast in tone even more striking and dramatic. | |
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| but SHE isn't rhyming | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 04:51 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:37 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - PlayWiz 03:39 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| It's a musical - Maria is like any other character in a musical ... in the reality of the play they are not singing or rhyming, that is how the writers are expressing the story. The rhyme part is an element of it being a song. Not a single character in WSS or most of his or any other musicals make sense to be rhyming. So why is it an issue when her thoughts rhyme but not when everyone elses do too? And yes, it's very worthwhile dramatically for the structure of the show and its tones, flow, balance, and use of dramatic irony. I'm frankly surprised Ivo didn't keep the song or a shorter version of it and have it performed next to the dead bodies. |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: andyboy 04:10 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - PlayWiz 03:39 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Gee, if Sondheim wants to be embarrassed about a lyric from WSS, he could easily zero in on this one: Tonight, tonight The world is full of light With suns and moons all over the place |
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| Sondheim addresses: 'The world was just an address' | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 11:46 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - andyboy 04:10 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Link | '60 Minutes' Overtime: What embarrasses Stephen Sondheim (in 2020) |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 06:08 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - andyboy 04:10 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Romeo and Juliet have been famously referred to as "star-crossed lovers", so evoking astronomy fits right in. | |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 06:04 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - andyboy 04:10 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| There’s a recurring motif of astronomical references in both R&J and WSS. I love each one, for the way it evokes the original source, yet couched as love-drunk, poorly educated young people might say. I think WSS does have its share of purple passages, but not that one. Laura |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - PlayWiz 03:39 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| "I don't think even 'alarming' and 'charming' and their Spanish equivalents are 700-800 level vocabulary words on the SAT either, so I don't really understand Sondheim's embarrassment over his lyrics. Even someone without a college degree might from time to time speak a few words that contain an internal rhyme, too. It's a perfectly lovely song which works to lighten the mood for a few minutes before pretty much everything in Maria's world comes apart, which makes the contrast in tone even more striking and dramatic." I agree 100 percent, Also, "I Feel Pretty" is one of relatively very few light and joyous moments in the show, and is essential to the overall emotional balance of the story for that reason. I would argue that this is true whether the song is placed where it was in the original production or moved to the earlier position where it was slotted in the movie. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who argues for its exclusion simply doesn't understand the need for at least a few moments of light and joy even in the darkest tragedy. P.S. For what it's worth, I think Sondheim also has a problem with "fizzy and funny and fine," because he feels in retrospect that the alliteration is too sophisticated and witty for Maria. I'm not saying I agree with that either, because let's face it, songs in musicals are often stylized and have a feeling of heightened reality. I personally have always had more of a problem with Nellie Forbush's "I'm bromidic and bright as a moon-happy night pouring light on the dew," as that sounds SO "written" to me, whereas "fizzy and funny and fine" could be a phrase that a not particularly well educated person could come up with while purposely trying to be silly by indulging in wordplay. And don't forget that, throughout the song, Maria is basically making fun of herself and acting all pretentious for humorous purposes -- e.g., "I hardly can believe I'm real!" "The city should give me its key!" "[I feel] so pretty, Miss America should just resign!" |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:55 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| "...songs in musicals are often stylized and have a feeling of heightened reality." Agreed 100%, and that's why I personally have never had a problem with these lyrics. I know Sondheim isn't fond of "the world was just an address" either, but I think love songs are full of heightened lyrics that don't always need to speak to the reality of the character. But hey, if Sondheim isn't happy with some of his work in WSS, he's entitled. Maybe we wish he'd let it go, but artists can often be too self-critical. I remember attending a Q&A with Bill Finn, after he had written Elegies, and in response to a question about Falsettos, he made a very dismissive comment about that being his "baby work." I can think of other instances where composers or writers have been too critical of especially of their early works. So it is. |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 05:59 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Nellie’s line about feeling bromidic sounds stilted to us because that’s a word that’s pretty much vanished from use. That wasn’t the case in the twenties through the forties. The term was derived from humorist Gilbert Burgess’s 1906 work, ARE YOU A BROMIDE? and show tune buffs will know Ira and George used it in 1927’s “The Babbitt and the Bromide.” Laura, who should be working but is watching baseball and nattering about old words... |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:07 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - showtunetrivia 05:59 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Understood, Laura, but to me, "bromidic" sounds a lot more stilted than "bromide." Plus it's not just that word, it's the combination of stilted language PLUS alliteration PLUS interior rhyming in one sentence that really bothers me: "I'm bromidic and bright as a moon-happy night pourlng light on the dew." | |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:32 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 08:07 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Except, when you look at the entire lyric - verse and refrain - it's full of alliterations and inner rhymes. Lots of both. Along with words like "dither" and "protestations" which also don't feel like everyday vocabulary. |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 06:12 pm EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Chromolume 08:32 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Right, but again, it's the combination of stilted language and alliteration AND interior rhyming IN ONE LINE that makes me think "I'm bromidic and bright as a moon-happy night pouring light on the dew" sounds so obviously "written." "Dither" doesn't strike me as high-flown language at all, and "protestations" only slightly. |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:39 pm EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 06:12 pm EST 02/23/20 | |
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| One other point to consider in context - the other nurses are listening in, and Nellie knows it. The vocab could be part of a deliberate bit of showing off. | |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 08:14 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 08:07 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Aw, come on, I bet Nellie wrote poetry in her girlish youth! (But I agree, it is a bit much...😀) Laura, back to watching baseball (hey, did you guys know Yankees fans used to sing “Of thee I sing, baby!” when the Bambino socked one over the fences? Morrie Ryskind said so.) |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:46 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - showtunetrivia 05:59 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| I also think that Nellie would certainly have known the medicinal use of bromides (for headaches or as a sedative), so "bromidic" doesn't seem all that far fetched to me. But Laura, I agree - I think the reason the line sounds odd to us now is the the word itself has gone out of the vocabulary, along with babbitt. | |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 04:56 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:45 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Also beyond the need for light and joy... there's a heavy and effective dramatic irony to going from a violent rumble ending in two dead bodies and then going to Maria, blissfully unaware and celebrating how she feels to be in love with one of the people she doesn't know is responsible for the violence that she doesn't think just happened. And with regards to the lyrical alliteration... again... Steve... MARIA IS NOT RHYMING OR USING ALLITERATION, *YOU* ARE in how you chose to write her musical/lyrical expression! She is just speaking or thinking and the audience is hearing it. But when it's a song we do not think the characters are suddenly speaking in rhyme, and that goes for the alliteration IN the rhyming lyrics as well. We understand it's a musical. In musicals characters who aren't singers start singing their dialogue or thoughts, and when singing they almost always rhyme despite that in the musical when they are not singing they almost always do not rhyme. BUT if we do what to pretend that's somehow relevant... this is not a very sophisticated rhyme or alliteration, and I DO think a young smart girl who is learning a new language and its vocab and applying it would, in a moment of heightened joy, be searching for words she has learned or read like stunning and charming and fuzzy, etc, and might delight in this kind of alliteration with these words. And in fact the way the song plays it almost feels like someone who is searching for words to try to describe how she's feeling, rather than confidently putting them out there fully pre-thought and intentional. And I agree about how she's playing it with the humorous pretension, etc. So no matter how he cuts it I think he has a weird misunderstanding of how this song plays in the show and to an audience, and perhaps a unknowing lack of respect for this character and too much respect for his own writing here even in the sense that he respects the cleverness of him to the point of objecting to it and in turn disrespects the character's ability in order to acknowledge his own. |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:44 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - PlayWiz 03:39 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| For the opposite viewpoint, I've always found the song a bit sacharine and cutesy, as well as a bit old fashioned. It has its virtues, as you describe, but I also appreciate streamlining the narrative drive so that we get caught up in the cataclysmic sweep of the tragedy. Either we need a moment to catch our breath, or the song lets all of the air out. I side with the latter viewpoint. | |
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