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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - PlayWiz 03:39 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| "I don't think even 'alarming' and 'charming' and their Spanish equivalents are 700-800 level vocabulary words on the SAT either, so I don't really understand Sondheim's embarrassment over his lyrics. Even someone without a college degree might from time to time speak a few words that contain an internal rhyme, too. It's a perfectly lovely song which works to lighten the mood for a few minutes before pretty much everything in Maria's world comes apart, which makes the contrast in tone even more striking and dramatic." I agree 100 percent, Also, "I Feel Pretty" is one of relatively very few light and joyous moments in the show, and is essential to the overall emotional balance of the story for that reason. I would argue that this is true whether the song is placed where it was in the original production or moved to the earlier position where it was slotted in the movie. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who argues for its exclusion simply doesn't understand the need for at least a few moments of light and joy even in the darkest tragedy. P.S. For what it's worth, I think Sondheim also has a problem with "fizzy and funny and fine," because he feels in retrospect that the alliteration is too sophisticated and witty for Maria. I'm not saying I agree with that either, because let's face it, songs in musicals are often stylized and have a feeling of heightened reality. I personally have always had more of a problem with Nellie Forbush's "I'm bromidic and bright as a moon-happy night pouring light on the dew," as that sounds SO "written" to me, whereas "fizzy and funny and fine" could be a phrase that a not particularly well educated person could come up with while purposely trying to be silly by indulging in wordplay. And don't forget that, throughout the song, Maria is basically making fun of herself and acting all pretentious for humorous purposes -- e.g., "I hardly can believe I'm real!" "The city should give me its key!" "[I feel] so pretty, Miss America should just resign!" |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:55 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| "...songs in musicals are often stylized and have a feeling of heightened reality." Agreed 100%, and that's why I personally have never had a problem with these lyrics. I know Sondheim isn't fond of "the world was just an address" either, but I think love songs are full of heightened lyrics that don't always need to speak to the reality of the character. But hey, if Sondheim isn't happy with some of his work in WSS, he's entitled. Maybe we wish he'd let it go, but artists can often be too self-critical. I remember attending a Q&A with Bill Finn, after he had written Elegies, and in response to a question about Falsettos, he made a very dismissive comment about that being his "baby work." I can think of other instances where composers or writers have been too critical of especially of their early works. So it is. |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 05:59 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Nellie’s line about feeling bromidic sounds stilted to us because that’s a word that’s pretty much vanished from use. That wasn’t the case in the twenties through the forties. The term was derived from humorist Gilbert Burgess’s 1906 work, ARE YOU A BROMIDE? and show tune buffs will know Ira and George used it in 1927’s “The Babbitt and the Bromide.” Laura, who should be working but is watching baseball and nattering about old words... |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:07 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - showtunetrivia 05:59 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Understood, Laura, but to me, "bromidic" sounds a lot more stilted than "bromide." Plus it's not just that word, it's the combination of stilted language PLUS alliteration PLUS interior rhyming in one sentence that really bothers me: "I'm bromidic and bright as a moon-happy night pourlng light on the dew." | |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:32 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 08:07 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Except, when you look at the entire lyric - verse and refrain - it's full of alliterations and inner rhymes. Lots of both. Along with words like "dither" and "protestations" which also don't feel like everyday vocabulary. |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 06:12 pm EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Chromolume 08:32 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Right, but again, it's the combination of stilted language and alliteration AND interior rhyming IN ONE LINE that makes me think "I'm bromidic and bright as a moon-happy night pouring light on the dew" sounds so obviously "written." "Dither" doesn't strike me as high-flown language at all, and "protestations" only slightly. |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:39 pm EST 02/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 06:12 pm EST 02/23/20 | |
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| One other point to consider in context - the other nurses are listening in, and Nellie knows it. The vocab could be part of a deliberate bit of showing off. | |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 08:14 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 08:07 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Aw, come on, I bet Nellie wrote poetry in her girlish youth! (But I agree, it is a bit much...😀) Laura, back to watching baseball (hey, did you guys know Yankees fans used to sing “Of thee I sing, baby!” when the Bambino socked one over the fences? Morrie Ryskind said so.) |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:46 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - showtunetrivia 05:59 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| I also think that Nellie would certainly have known the medicinal use of bromides (for headaches or as a sedative), so "bromidic" doesn't seem all that far fetched to me. But Laura, I agree - I think the reason the line sounds odd to us now is the the word itself has gone out of the vocabulary, along with babbitt. | |
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| re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 04:56 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:45 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What’s wrong with “I feel pretty”? - Michael_Portantiere 04:02 pm EST 02/22/20 | |
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| Also beyond the need for light and joy... there's a heavy and effective dramatic irony to going from a violent rumble ending in two dead bodies and then going to Maria, blissfully unaware and celebrating how she feels to be in love with one of the people she doesn't know is responsible for the violence that she doesn't think just happened. And with regards to the lyrical alliteration... again... Steve... MARIA IS NOT RHYMING OR USING ALLITERATION, *YOU* ARE in how you chose to write her musical/lyrical expression! She is just speaking or thinking and the audience is hearing it. But when it's a song we do not think the characters are suddenly speaking in rhyme, and that goes for the alliteration IN the rhyming lyrics as well. We understand it's a musical. In musicals characters who aren't singers start singing their dialogue or thoughts, and when singing they almost always rhyme despite that in the musical when they are not singing they almost always do not rhyme. BUT if we do what to pretend that's somehow relevant... this is not a very sophisticated rhyme or alliteration, and I DO think a young smart girl who is learning a new language and its vocab and applying it would, in a moment of heightened joy, be searching for words she has learned or read like stunning and charming and fuzzy, etc, and might delight in this kind of alliteration with these words. And in fact the way the song plays it almost feels like someone who is searching for words to try to describe how she's feeling, rather than confidently putting them out there fully pre-thought and intentional. And I agree about how she's playing it with the humorous pretension, etc. So no matter how he cuts it I think he has a weird misunderstanding of how this song plays in the show and to an audience, and perhaps a unknowing lack of respect for this character and too much respect for his own writing here even in the sense that he respects the cleverness of him to the point of objecting to it and in turn disrespects the character's ability in order to acknowledge his own. |
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