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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: JT 02:24 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: The 1776 revival appears to be an all-female revival - mikem 12:27 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| I'm typically not one to be negative, but this sounds absolutely dreadful. This production is part of the lineup for the 2021 Broadway series in Charlotte where I live. I was looking forward to revisiting 1776, but now that I heard about this casting gimmick, I no longer have any interest in seeing it. | |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: TalkinTalker 07:48 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - JT 02:24 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| In 2017, this was one of the best presentations of the material I had ever seen/heard. It wasn’t a gimmick at all. They just performed the crap out of the material. Post HAMILTON, I hoped some of them would just get cast in these roles in productions that were not specifically all female, especially Carolee Carmello and Mary Testa, who were pretty much perfect. Just because they would be the best person for the role. “Feinstein’s/54 Below presented an all-female concert production of the Tony Award-winning musical 1776 February 20, Presidents' Day. “The cast was headed by Carolee Carmello as John Adams, Rema Webb as Abigail Adams, Arielle Jacobs as Martha Jefferson, Britney Coleman as Thomas Jefferson, Krystina Alabado as the Courier, Bonnie Milligan as Richard Henry Lee, Andréa Burns as Edward Rutledge, Kate Rockwell as John Dickinson, and Mary Testa as Benjamin Franklin with Amy Jo Jackson, Bre Jackson, Allison Posner, Sharone Sayegh, Angela Travino, and Amanda Savan.” |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 05:18 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - TalkinTalker 07:48 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| "Post HAMILTON, I hoped some of them would just get cast in these roles in productions that were not specifically all female, especially Carolee Carmello and Mary Testa, who were pretty much perfect. Just because they would be the best person for the role." It's perfectly fine for you to love gender-blind casting (if that's the correct term for it) in 1776 (or any other show) because you feel that illuminates the material in some new way, or whatever. But I really don't think it's appropriate to say the people you mentioned would "the best persons for the role" -- for many reasons, including the fact that such casting is not what the show's creators intended. |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 03:12 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - JT 02:24 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| Why does the 'gimmick' make it dreadful? I saw all three of the Donmar's all-female Shakespeare plays, and they definitely illuminated the texts in ways I had not previously considered. Of course, the trick is to be an open-minded person to begin with... |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 05:19 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - MockingbirdGirl 03:12 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| I really think one should stop short of branding people who don't like alternative casting as not being "open minded." Because if open mindedness in terms of being allowed to see the text of a show illuminated in a different way were truly the point here, then it would be perfectly acceptable and desirable, for example, to cast major female roles in various shows with men, but in reality, that is not the case at all. | |
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| Bye Bye Birdie: In Concert with an All Male Cast | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 11:01 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 10:56 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - Michael_Portantiere 05:19 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| I’m a man and I played Kim MacAfee in this back in 1998 Upstairs at Rose’s Turn. In my 25 year professional career, my husband maintains this was the best thing I was ever in. It was pretty fun and the audience loved it. Were you there? It was around the time we met. | |
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| re: Bye Bye Birdie: In Concert with an All Male Cast | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:06 am EDT 04/17/20 | |
| In reply to: Bye Bye Birdie: In Concert with an All Male Cast - KingSpeed 10:56 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| Ah yes, I saw it, you were great in it :-) | |
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| re: Bye Bye Birdie: In Concert with an All Male Cast | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 02:10 am EDT 04/17/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Bye Bye Birdie: In Concert with an All Male Cast - Michael_Portantiere 12:06 am EDT 04/17/20 | |
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| Thanks Michael!! | |
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| Lady Bracknell (nmi) | |
| Posted by: stevemr 07:40 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - Michael_Portantiere 05:19 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| nmi | |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 06:42 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 06:40 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - Michael_Portantiere 05:19 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| But I think dismissing something out of hand based solely on the gender of the participants is close-minded. It's not, "I don't like that director" or "there are actors there I dislike." And to add what's been posted below about all-male Shakespeare companies... it's become almost common to cast a man as Lady Bracknell. I don't recall reading a peep of complaint around here about how "dreadful" it sounded when Brian Bedford was announced for the role. |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:31 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - Michael_Portantiere 05:19 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| Except that it is common to see all-male productions of Shakespeare, and there are even companies like Propellor which are entirely dedicated to that practice. So, in fact, it is acceptable based on context. | |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 05:37 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - Singapore/Fling 05:31 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| "Except that it is common to see all-male productions of Shakespeare, and there are even companies like Propellor which are entirely dedicated to that practice. So, in fact, it is acceptable based on context." Good point, but I was not referring to plays by Shakespeare. And for what it's worth, I wouldn't say it's at all "common" to still see all-male productions of Shakespeare, even if there are still some examples, as you mention. And also, I would say the main reason those productions exist is as a nod to the Elizabethan theater tradition, so they're a special case in that respect. |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:56 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - Michael_Portantiere 05:37 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| We can quibble over frequency and the word "common", but we had two celebrated and award-winning all-male Shakespeare plays in rep on Broadway in the past decade. And yes, there is an element of this which is exploring the tradition of Shakespeare's time, but since they aren't casting teenage boys as the women, it's very much a modern practice, just as with all-female productions. Arguably, the artistic impulse to explore those plays with cross-gendered casting (in either direction), is akin to this casting of "1776": it gives modern-day audiences an opportunity to reconsider classic stories in a new way. So you may not have been considering plays like Shakespeare, but the comparison strikes me as apt. |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 09:50 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - Singapore/Fling 07:56 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| But 1776 is a musical, with songs written for male voices. Shakespeare, due to the dictates of his time, wrote female roles for male actors, yes, but did the actors ever need to sing songs in an alto’s or soprano’s keys? Perhaps dreadful is too strong a term. Disappointing is not. |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:20 pm EDT 04/17/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - TheOtherOne 09:50 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| Keys get changed all the time in musicals. It's a fact. So-called "original scores" are the product of placing songs in keys that work for those particular performers. It's not quite the same thing we think of as in classical music, where a concerto in G is always a concerto in G, lol. Obviously changing keys takes time and money to produce new materials, so it's avoided when it can be avoided. But in a case like this, where the cross-gender casting is the point of the production, I'm sure it's going to be done extensively. And it will be fine. Our ear only gets used to so-called "original keys" because we play the albums over and over again. ;-) |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:00 pm EDT 04/17/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - Chromolume 12:20 pm EDT 04/17/20 | |
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| "Keys get changed all the time in musicals. It's a fact. So-called "original scores" are the product of placing songs in keys that work for those particular performers. It's not quite the same thing we think of as in classical music, where a concerto in G is always a concerto in G, lol. Obviously changing keys takes time and money to produce new materials, so it's avoided when it can be avoided. But in a case like this, where the cross-gender casting is the point of the production, I'm sure it's going to be done extensively. And it will be fine. Our ear only gets used to so-called "original keys" because we play the albums over and over again. ;-) " That's all very true, but I would also say: It depends. For example, in PIPPIN, the Leading Player sings "Magic to Do" with the chorus, and he sings "On the Right Track" with Pippin. Because the role was originally conceived for a male, the choral parts were written with a mind toward those keys, and so was the other male vocal part in the other song. When the keys are changed drastically, as for an alto belt, sometimes it just doesn't sound right to me, and I don't think it's just because I'm used to the original keys. |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:25 pm EDT 04/17/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - Michael_Portantiere 01:00 pm EDT 04/17/20 | |
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| Yes - sometimes key changes do affect choral arrangements and orchestrations, and yes, I would agree that the result isn't always satisfying (though I'm personally ok with the Pippin changes). One of my own examples would be the changes made to the rental version of "Will-A-Mania" from The Will Rogers Follies, a 3rd lower than the original (recorded) key, with all sorts of adjustments made to the choral parts and orchestrations, and it just doesn't work as well IMO. | |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 10:00 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 09:58 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - TheOtherOne 09:50 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| Rosalie Craig & Katrina Lenk in Company? Patina Miller in Pippin? Whoopi in Forum? Every edition of BC/EFA's "Broadway Backwards"? Again, not an insurmountable barrier. I loved the last "traditional" 1776 I saw (with Brent Spiner). I loved the modern-dress 1776 at Encores. I'm willing to give this a go. Because a solidly-written show can always withstand a bit of experimentation. |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:09 am EDT 04/17/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - MockingbirdGirl 09:58 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| "Patina Miller in Pippin?" I strongly disliked the way those songs sounded in alto belt keys, and I don't think it's just because I was so used to them in the original key. In the context of the show, they just didn't sound right in those keys. Just because something was done doesn't mean it was successful. |
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| 1776 -- Female Cast | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 10:54 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:52 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - MockingbirdGirl 09:58 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| Craig, Lenk, and Miller played female characters in their shows. I didn't see Whoopi on stage in Forum, but in the clips I've seen of her on-line, she makes no attempt to play the role as a man. Harvey Fierstein, Charles Busch, and Brian Bedford in Hairspray, The Divine Sister, and Earnest played their respective roles credibly as women. When I saw King Lear last year, Glenda Jackson disappeared into the role and I only saw the character Lear on stage. However, 3 years ago in Chicago I saw a production of Picnic in which Hal was played by a female performer who I knew to be a fine actor. Her hair was cut sort, she dressed like a guy, and her line readings were appropriate, but never for a minute did I believe I was seeing a man on stage as Hal. The performance was well done and I don't regret seeing it, but it felt like I was watching Madge having a fling with another woman. I'm open to what ART is trying to do. I don't think it's impossible, but I would be hesitant to buy a ticket until I heard comments from others who had seen it. |
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| re: 1776 -- Female Cast | |
| Last Edit: mikem 11:27 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| Posted by: mikem 11:20 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: 1776 -- Female Cast - BroadwayTonyJ 10:52 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| One of the missing elements here is that neither Diane Paulus nor anyone else in the production has told us why they've decided to cast this particular show in this way. What's the overall concept of this production? Is it set in the 1700s? Are the actors wearing period male costumes, something more unisex and contemporary, or something else? It's hard to tell whether this is an overarching directorial concept that will illuminate the text, or if this is just a gimmick. BroadwayTonyJ, it sounds gimmicky to me to cast Hal in Picnic with a female actor. Was it clear why the show was cast in that fashion? |
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| re: 1776 -- Female Cast | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 01:11 am EDT 04/17/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 -- Female Cast - mikem 11:20 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| I don't think the casting choice was intended to be a gimmick. The artistic director stated he wanted the audience to look at the story from a fresh point of view. He felt that the female actor he chose for the role was the one who best embodied his vision for Hal. The production got mostly positive reviews from all the papers except from the one that everyone in Chicago reads -- the Tribune gave it a mixed review. | |
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| re: 1776 -- Female Cast | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:56 pm EDT 04/17/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 -- Female Cast - BroadwayTonyJ 01:11 am EDT 04/17/20 | |
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| "I don't think the casting choice was intended to be a gimmick. The artistic director stated he wanted the audience to look at the story from a fresh point of view. He felt that the female actor he chose for the role was the one who best embodied his vision for Hal." When casting like this happens, I find it interesting to ponder EXACTLY what is the intent of it. Hal in PICNIC is William Inge's portrait of what might be described as a hyper-male character who trades on his specifically hyper-male sexuality as he moves through life, and it seems that pretty much every aspect of his life is informed by his hyper-male sexuality. If you have a woman playing the role, that can arguably allow us to look at those facets of the character in a new way through a sort of distancing or "strange-making" effect along Brechtian lines. Another way to phrase it is that casting a woman as Hal allows that actor in her performance to comment on this hyper-male character. But even if one does find that fascinating, obviously the play and the character work -- if they still do -- on a VERY different level than in a traditionally cast production, and of course, not every audience member is going to respond well to that. |
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| re: 1776 -- Female Cast | |
| Posted by: mikem 11:01 am EDT 04/17/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 1776 -- Female Cast - BroadwayTonyJ 01:11 am EDT 04/17/20 | |
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| BroadwayTonyJ, thanks! I think one of the pivotal aspects of Picnic is that multiple women in the town are physically attracted to Hal, so having him played by a woman and the other characters also played by women creates themes that could overshadow the other themes of the play. I'm glad to hear that was not the case. | |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: JT 03:27 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - MockingbirdGirl 03:12 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| I'm just not a fan of this kind of casting, but am glad it works for you. I try to be open-minded, but obviously have not mastered it, as well as others. I suppose I'm definitely a traditionalist and am confident I'm not alone in this. I'd rather see this production with some of our country's great talented actors who would play our founding fathers and haven't had the opportunity, yet, to do so. | |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:41 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - JT 03:27 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| Crystal Lucas-Perry is one of our country’s great talented actors, as I am sure are many of the others in this cast, so I believe you’ll still get your wish. So excited to see what Crystal does with the part - a whole bunch of us in downtown theater have been waiting for her to blow up, she’s just phenomenal. |
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| re: Sounds Dreadful | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:35 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - JT 02:24 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| You know...it's different, it's something I maybe wouldn't have thought of, but you know what? I've seen 1776 many times cast in the traditional way. There's even a movie to watch if you need a fix of something like that. And there will be many traditional productions in future at all levels. Assuming this production even happens now, I'm willing to give the creatives a shot to show me 1776 in a different way. It might not work. It might be terrible. (Of course, a traditional production also might not work and/or be terrible.) But it might also make me see something new in a show that I know very well. I wish more revivals were willing to take chances like this and try something new. So I'm willing to give it a shot and see what they come up with. |
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| i think a ton of potential audiences have never seen it | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:21 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Sounds Dreadful - JereNYC 02:35 pm EDT 04/16/20 | |
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| I've seen the movie several times, I've heard the cast recording(s) countless times... it's a pretty straight forward show that's hard to mess up. So I am on board with seeing it this way. BUT I also have never, that I recall, had the opportunity to see a production at even a good regional theater let alone a major pre-broadway tour. I'm sure there have been regional productions I've been unaware of it my area(s) over my adult life, I know the show is not rare. But I think a ton of the people who would be advertised to and buying tickets have not seen the show live ever, if even listened to it or seen the film, and this is their big shot. So in that regard it does make me nervous that they only get to see it with gimmick casting. But I also know this revival is/was/is only happening because Paulus wanted to do it this way... so... that's how it goes. I was really looking forward to it either. |
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