Threaded Order Chronological Order
| The ending of this version (spoilers) | |
| Last Edit: mikem 06:43 am EDT 04/19/20 | |
| Posted by: mikem 06:36 am EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: Streaming PHANTOM — can we start a petition to fix Ramin Karimloo’s vowels? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:28 pm EDT 04/18/20 | |
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| (spoilers) At the end of this version, Christine's kiss of the Phantom is much more sexual and passionate than I remember seeing in other versions. And then she starts singing "Say you'll share with me one love, one lifetime" to the Phantom before Raoul snaps her out of it and brings her back to the real world. I think of Christine in POTO as being fond of the Phantom as a mentor/father figure, but not seriously thinking of him as a romantic partner. This seems very influenced by Love Never Dies, which premiered a few years before this concert took place, with Ramin Karimloo and Sierra Boggess as the leads for both. I have not seen Phantom since Love Never Dies premiered. Is this concept that Christine has a strong sexual/romantic attraction to the Phantom present in the more recent performances on Broadway or on tour? I think the show works better with the Phantom as a tragic figure rather than a serious romantic option. He's killing people and terrorizing her friends. Christine shouldn't want to be with him as a romantic partner, and the Phantom's realization that she's better off without him should be part of what drives his actions at the very end. |
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| re: The ending of this version (spoilers) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:42 pm EDT 04/25/20 | |
| In reply to: The ending of this version (spoilers) - mikem 06:36 am EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| "This seems very influenced by Love Never Dies, which premiered a few years before this concert took place, with Ramin Karimloo and Sierra Boggess as the leads for both. I have not seen Phantom since Love Never Dies premiered. Is this concept that Christine has a strong sexual/romantic attraction to the Phantom present in the more recent performances on Broadway or on tour?" I'm no PHANTOM fan or expert, but the interpretation that Christine does NOT have a strong sexual/romantic attraction to the Phantom has never occurred to me. This certainly seems true in the 1925 movie, and in the musical, how could the music they sing to and about each other be interpreted any other way? My own specific interpretation is that, at the beginning of the story, Christine has a strong obsession with the Phantom (and, of course, vice-versa). The physical attraction may (or may not) completely disappear after she sees his face, but I think the romantic/emotional attraction remains strong despite his face and despite the horrible things he begins doing, and I guess she ends up loving him at least in a pitying way. P.S. At a friend's recommendation, I started to watch LOVE NEVER DIES last night, but I only lasted about 40 minutes. I found both the story and the lyrics shockingly bad. One specific question, as someone here may well know the answer: When the boy Gustav plays the music box towards the beginning, why do we hear no melody at all? Both times he "played" it, I heard nothing. I thought it might have been some weird problem with the audio feed through YouTube, but that was the only thing I couldn't hear. Anyone? |
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| Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! | |
| Posted by: LynnO 06:48 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: The ending of this version (spoilers) - mikem 06:36 am EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| I love the end of this version. It was different because they didn't have the boat to sail off in, so in this version, she sings the first line to the Phantom before she runs off with Raoul. In the Broadway (original) version, Christine and Raoul run off, and then you see them sail off in the background in the boat, singing the whole reprise to each other, with the Phantom crying into the veil in the foreground. In the new modified US Tour version, at least when I saw it, Christine drops the ring on the organ and runs off without even addressing the Phantom! I hate the new ending! And I certainly hope that they don't re-tool Broadway into the horrific new US Tour version. In the Broadway (original) version, the two kisses are usually just as passionate as they are in this version, the only difference being that the Phantom usually never really touches Christine during the kiss -- but I think that Ramin gets sort of a hug in there in the filmed version, if I recall correctly? That being said, we all know that Ramin and Sierra have unmistakable chemistry, so maybe the kisses look more passionate? I always thought that Christine might have considered the Phantom as a potential romantic partner on some confused level, because his portrayal is usually sexy/mysterious, with the percentage of sexy/mysterious varying on who is playing the Phantom. This is not new, because I first saw POTO in the 1990's, and I immediately thought that Christine should have picked The Phantom instead of Raoul. The only time when I felt that Raoul was the correct choice for Christine was when I saw a combination of an un-sexy Phantom with an excellent top-notch Raoul! In the new US Tour version, the kisses aren't passionate at all, they seem to be a strategy to free Raoul, and the Phantom in the new version is portrayed more as a creepy stalker. Not sexy at all. I prefer this filmed version, where Christine has a real fondness for The Phantom, even though she sees him as a tragic figure at the same time. Like I said, the end is more lingering in this version, because Raoul and Christine don't have to run off for the boat. But in general, with the original Broadway version, I think Christine had a fondness for the Phantom, and is also grateful for the Phantom "making" her voice and career. And I do think that The Kiss makes the Phantom realize that she's better off without him, and that's what drives his actions at the end. I believe that POTO is beloved because of the romance of the story, and that's not with Raoul, at least as it's written. That is why I'm hoping that they don't bring the creepy stalker version of the Phantom to broadway. |
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| re: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! (Spoilers for Love Never Dies) | |
| Posted by: mikem 02:06 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! - LynnO 06:48 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| (spoilers for Love Never Dies) LynnO, thank you for all the detail! It's been a while since I've seen the show, which I've seen twice - once on Broadway, and once in the Vegas version. Ramin kisses and clutches Sierra back in the filmed version. It's interesting that the US Tour version makes the Phantom more like a stalker and seems to remove any attraction Christine might have to him. That's a contradiction to Love Never Dies. LynnO, I assume you've seen Love Never Dies. I'm curious what your opinion of it is. I saw the US Tour. I enjoyed the music, and I think the title song is beautiful. But, as I think is often true in sequels, the writers feel like they have to create conflict by creating problems where none seemed to exist in the original material. I didn't like the way that Raoul was made out to be kind of a mess and a bad father. And when exactly during the course of events of POTO did Christine and The Phantom make a child? I also don't think the Christine of POTO would have left Raoul for The Phantom in the way that it happens. But the worst part was the end. The show was already making me lose my fondness for the characters, and then when Christine gets shot by Meg Giry and dies, I was sitting there thinking, "How could Andrew Lloyd Webber think that audiences will like this ending?" I guessing he was going for Tragic, but it was just a major downer to me and really left a bad taste in my mouth when exiting the show. I think the score of Love Never Dies is worthy of another attempt at the libretto, but a lot of the current plot needs to be thrown out for the show to be successful IMO. |
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| re: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! (Spoilers for Love Never Dies) | |
| Last Edit: LynnO 02:38 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| Posted by: LynnO 02:31 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! (Spoilers for Love Never Dies) - mikem 02:06 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| Just to clarify, it is the NEW US tour version that is completely restaged and directed and makes the Phantom out to be more of a creepy stalker. The magic was completely sucked out of the show, in my opinion. I hope that they never bring that version to NY. Yes, I have seen LND, and I am not a fan, so you won't catch me making any connections from the wonderful original show to the odd sequel. There are several gorgeous songs in the LOVE NEVER DIES score that I love to hear in concert, however! I think attempting a sequel to POTO was a losing battle on all sides. To answer your question about when The Phantom and Christine create the child, they explain it all in one of the LND songs (Beneath A Moonless Sky). |
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| re: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! (Spoilers for Love Never Dies) | |
| Posted by: mikem 03:20 pm EDT 04/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! (Spoilers for Love Never Dies) - LynnO 02:31 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| LynnO, thanks for pointing out where in the text of LND it explains the timeline of The Phantom and Christine's "romance." As I imagine you agree, that they would get together after the course of the events in POTO makes even less sense than it having happened during those events. Christine would not have cheated on Raoul after they were a couple. LND is just character assassination all around. | |
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| re: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! (Spoilers for Love Never Dies) | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 08:41 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 08:38 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! (Spoilers for Love Never Dies) - LynnO 02:31 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| Yet more questions: Since Charles Hart wrote the lyrics to ''Phantom,'' why didn't he write the lyrics to ''Love Never Dies''? ''Love Never Dies'' has 4 names attached to the book: Lloyd Webber, Ben Elton, Frederick Forsyth and Glenn Slater (who did the lyrics). What's that saying about ''too many cooks ruining the broth''? (Among its songs, however, I do love the soaring ''Til I Hear You Sing.'') |
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| Link | Andrew Ragone: '' 'Til I Hear You Sing'' |
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| re: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! (Spoilers for Love Never Dies) | |
| Posted by: LynnO 12:36 am EDT 04/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Yay! Something that I can comment on with knowledge! (Spoilers for Love Never Dies) - WaymanWong 08:38 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| Ah, like I said, I'm not that deep of a fan to know all those stories, I think you should do the research, Wayman! I adore "'Til I Hear You Sing," (thank you for that link!) and I also love "Beneath a Moonless Sky." |
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