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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 02:27 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: Hidden puns in character names? - 37Rubydog 01:47 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| Names that were obvious puns were constantly used in nineteenth and early 20th century plays. I’ll dig out a bunch in a bit. But I can explain Mazeppa without checking the reference books. The real Ivan Mazeppa was a Ukrainian separatist of the mid 17th century. He had an affair, was caught, stripped naked, and was tied to a runway horse. He survived,,and had various adventures. His life was turned into a romantic poem by Byron. Flash forward to New Orleans, and a lively young lady named Adah Isaacs Menken, a beauty who was the mistress of an Austrian nobleman, had four marriages, cropped her hair and smoke in public, and was a stage star. Her biggest hit was playing MAZEPPA, OR THE WILD HORSE OF TARTARY (1861). In which she wore a flesh colored tight, and rode across the stage on a real horse. This was a sensation, of course, and even after Adah’s time, the role continued. (Google images for the title.) People in 1920s and 1930s America were not likely to know the Ukrainian hero, the Byron poem, but the image of Nekkid Girl On Horse On Stage remained. Laura, historian (not) at large |
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| MAZEPPA is also the title of an opera by Tchaikovsky.... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:52 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - showtunetrivia 02:27 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| ....based on the story of the 17th-century Ukrainian figure that you mentioned. But I suspect you're right and whoever named the character in GYPSY -- presumably Arthur Laurents -- was probably more likely thinking of the OTHER Mazeppa you cited. | |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 03:51 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:49 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - showtunetrivia 02:27 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| Speaking of ''Gypsy,'' it took me years to realize that Tulsa and Yonkers were probably named based on where these boys joined Rose's troupe. In later revivals, the show added other names, like Kansas, which were not among those listed in the original cast. By the way, in looking up the original cast listing, I was surprised to learn that ''Gypsy'' (1959) did only 2 previews (!). We're so used to new musicals being in previews for a month or so. Even the 2008 ''Gypsy'' revival, starring Patti LuPone, did 27 previews. Just for a point of reference, I looked up the original ''The Sound of Music'' (also 1959), and it did only 5 previews. |
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| Previews were out of town back then | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 04:20 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - WaymanWong 03:49 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| The reason their Gypsy and Sound of Music has so few previews was that they had out of town tryouts. The original Gypsy did six weeks in Philadelphia (and I think a few more in New Haven). That adds up to a lot more than 27 preview performances. |
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| re: Previews were out of town back then | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 11:17 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Previews were out of town back then - whereismikeyfl 04:20 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| On a minor matter, Gypsy played only Philadelphia prior to Broadway, and for five weeks. The truth is that over time even musicals that did traditional out-of-town tryouts, back when musicals still did that, generally started playing more previews in New York, although it varied somewhat. (In case anyone thinks I'm saying that no musicals nowadays do out-of-town tryouts, I'm not. I'm talking about shows playing out of town and then proceeding to New York without taking a break of at least a couple of months.) At one time, many musicals and plays closed out of town on a Saturday, and opened on Broadway two days later with no previews, but that was pretty long ago. I'm sure you know that, but not everyone does. |
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| Much more technically complex stagings today | |
| Last Edit: seeseveryshow 06:50 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| Posted by: seeseveryshow 06:49 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: Previews were out of town back then - whereismikeyfl 04:20 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| Back in the 1950's, big musicals like GYPSY and THE SOUND OF MUSIC could close in one theater on a Saturday night, and open a few days later at another. They didn't have the sophisticated scenic and lighting machinery, and sound design, that shows do today and, I believe, they didn't bring in their own decks. Accordingly, they did not require as much tech time to make sure everything worked properly prior to opening. So, they could open after a couple of previews. I saw the original productions of both of those shows from excellent mezzanine seats (admittedly a long time ago), and I don't recall that they used electronics or computers to move set pieces on and off, or traps and elevators, which are common nowadays. The employed simple, perhaps even primitive, stagecraft by today's standards. Maybe someone knows when the modern deck became standard for most Broadway shows. IIRC, the original Camelot had some sort of luminous stage floor. Not sure how that was accomplished. |
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| re: Much more technically complex stagings today | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 11:21 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Much more technically complex stagings today - seeseveryshow 06:49 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| Even shows that had decks were able to do that because the decks were simpler. I may be wrong on this, I'm not an expert, but I would think any show that used turntables or winches or (this was less common but was done) a treadmill had to have had a deck of some sort. And those go back a long time. | |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: stevemr 03:34 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - showtunetrivia 02:27 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| All true. And all have opera connections of one sort or the other. Of course there are lots of other opera names that could have been picked, so let me suggest the possibility that Mazeppa's name was reverse-engineered, so to speak, in order to give Sondheim the ability to rhyme with "schleppa" | |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:55 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - stevemr 03:34 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| I think Sondheim, Cole Porter and lots of other lyricists reverse-engineer something, and can be especially flexible as to inserting a proper name or place, when they have a good punch-line or funny word they'd love to include, like "schleppa". | |
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| Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: TimDunleavy 09:57 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - PlayWiz 03:55 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| Peter Filichia has written that he asked Sondheim if the character in FOLLIES was named Weismann so that it would rhyme with "nice man," and Sondheim was offended and said he would never do such a thing. (Peter, please correct me as to the wording!) |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:18 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: Reverse engineering - TimDunleavy 09:57 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| ***Peter Filichia has written that he asked Sondheim if the character in FOLLIES was named Weismann so that it would rhyme with "nice man..."*** Whichever came first, the weird thing about that is "Weisman" would correctly be pronounced with a "z" sound instead of an "s" sound -- as if it were an English or American named spelled "Wiseman" -- which doesn't perfectly rhyme with "nice man," so I've always wondered why they didn't just spell it "Weissman" in FOLLIES, or change it to "Weissman" from "Weisman" after Sondheim came up with that line. |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 12:56 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - Michael_Portantiere 10:18 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| The character named Dimitri Weismann was in early drafts of the show when it was called The Girls Upstairs. And that was the spelling used in playbills and the published script: one S, with a double N at the end. I don't know if that was the character's name from the very beginning, but it was the character's name by three-and-a-half years before rehearsals started. "Beautiful Girls" was a fairly late addition to the score, replacing "Bring on the Girls," which did not include the character's name. (For some reason, they decided to use "Bring on the Girls" rather than "Beautiful Girls" as Roscoe's pre-recorded song in the original opening sequence, used for almost the entire Boston run, sung by Kurt Peterson, but "Beautiful Girls" had replaced it as the song to be used in the show before rehearsals started.) So, yes, the character was not named because of the rhyme. I'm confused by the pronunciation question. I've been under the impression that Weiß or Weis is pronounced with a soft S, and that's what I hear on German dictionaries online. |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:38 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - AlanScott 12:56 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| I have no idea why I mentioned "Beautiful Girls." Anyway, "Broadway Baby" was written well after the character was named Weismann. |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:10 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - AlanScott 12:56 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| "I'm confused by the pronunciation question. I've been under the impression that Weiß or Weis is pronounced with a soft S, and that's what I hear on German dictionaries online." If you checked it out, then maybe I'm wrong about that. I remember being corrected in the past when I pronounced it with a double-s sound, but it's certainly possible that the people correcting me were incorrect themselves. I just re-listened to the original cast recording, and the actor who played Weismann does in fact say it with the soft "s" or double-s sound, so I guess that's what they wanted even if there is some question about the spelling. |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:04 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - Michael_Portantiere 10:18 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| You're of course making the assumption that Mr. Weisman (or eben more appropriately, others) actually used the German pronunciation instead of the Americanized "s" sound. ;-) But I wouldn't doubt that Sondheim didn't reverse engineer that - after all, he didn't do it for "Armfeldt / Charm felt" - given that that was the name in the Bergman film. :-) |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:39 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - Chromolume 11:04 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| ***You're of course making the assumption that Mr. Weisman (or eben more appropriately, others) actually used the German pronunciation instead of the Americanized "s" sound. ;-)*** I see your point, but I still don't understand why they didn't just spell it "Weissman." I've never bought the argument that saying, for example, "Weisman" as "Weissman" is okay because it's an "Americanized" pronunciation. To me, it's just wrong. ***But I wouldn't doubt that Sondheim didn't reverse engineer that - after all, he didn't do it for "Armfeldt / Charm felt" - given that that was the name in the Bergman film. :-)*** I was actually going to mention that I used to wonder if that rhyme was reverse engineered, but then I looked it up and found that, indeed, that's her name in the Bergman film. And, come to think of it, there's probably no reason why it would have occurred to Sondheim to use the phrase "she may hope to make her charm felt" if the name "Arrmfeldt" wasn't already in place for him to rhyme with. Whatever -- it's a BRILLIANT rhyme. |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 04:13 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - PlayWiz 03:55 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| What a coincidence to see this thread as I was JUST pondering this on a walk about an hour ago. Was listening to Dirty Rotten Soundrels and in the song Son of Great Big Stuff, Norbert sings "I get the dough, I get the broad, I'm gettin' rid of Sigmund fraud". It seems unlikely the entire subplot of John Lithgow's character posing a pychoanalyist (or psychiatrist?) was reverse engineered so Yazbek could make this joke, playing off both Freud's profession and the wordplay of Freud/fraud. But I think it's just delicions. It's clever but also only works in a very specific way in reference to the plot of this show, which makes it even more impressive. Another favorite of mine from this show is "She's down for fifty mil', in an addendum to his will, and where there's a will, there's a way". Also works on many levels at one time, being clever word play on its own, but also in service of the plot, manipulating someone for financial gain. |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 03:22 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:21 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - showtunetrivia 02:27 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| There's also an opera called "Mazeppa" by Tchaikowsky (very rarely done, though maybe still done in Russia). Sondheim also named the other stripper "Electra", which also has an eponymous opera written by Richard Strauss (and she's not a fun character by any means of the imagination). | |
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| Laurents | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:29 am EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - PlayWiz 03:21 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| To give the devil his due, I am almost positive that all the stripper names came from Laurents. There are drafts at the Library for the Performing Arts from before most of the score was written, and it's amazing how much of the show is already there, even without a lot of the songs. No wonder Robbins supposedly said to Laurents out of town that it was his (Laurents's) show, a book writer's show, not the kind of show to which Robbins could make his special type of contributions. | |
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| i assumed Electra was for electricity. | |
| Posted by: dramedy 05:11 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - PlayWiz 03:21 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| Not the opera, but that makes sense with the other stripper name is an opera. | |
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| re: i assumed Electra was for electricity. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:58 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: i assumed Electra was for electricity. - dramedy 05:11 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| Yes, though of course Electra dates back to the ancient Greeks. Also, of course there is an opera (by Marvin David Levy) based on the O'Neill play Mourning Becomes Electra |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 02:56 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - showtunetrivia 02:27 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| The first one that leaps to mind is Bunny Flingus in The House of Blue Leaves. I remember when I first read the play, around middle school, I just thought it was a funny name for someone to have! Ah, for the innocence of youth. | |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: andyboy 03:30 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - BruceinIthaca 02:56 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| Bruce, up until NOW I'd always thought it was just a funny name as well (and because she's having a "fling" with Artie, it seemed maybe even a little on-the-nose). I never until just this moment as I ran the sound of it over and over in my head, realized that the name is actually more "on the tongue!" | |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 03:05 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - BruceinIthaca 02:56 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| I never go this before. Ah, for the innocence of middle age. | |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: 37Rubydog 03:26 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - whereismikeyfl 03:05 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| As a middle aged theater kid I’m in the same boat. 😀 | |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: altonido 01:29 am EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - 37Rubydog 03:26 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| In "Auntie Mame" and "Mame," Mame's trusted friend and long-time admirer is one M. Lindsay Woolsey. This is a play on the apparently ancient term "linsey-woolsey," generally defined as a coarse fabric but also as "a jumble." | |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:47 am EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - altonido 01:29 am EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| And the plantation name is Peckerwood. | |
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