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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: stevemr 03:34 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - showtunetrivia 02:27 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| All true. And all have opera connections of one sort or the other. Of course there are lots of other opera names that could have been picked, so let me suggest the possibility that Mazeppa's name was reverse-engineered, so to speak, in order to give Sondheim the ability to rhyme with "schleppa" | |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:55 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - stevemr 03:34 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| I think Sondheim, Cole Porter and lots of other lyricists reverse-engineer something, and can be especially flexible as to inserting a proper name or place, when they have a good punch-line or funny word they'd love to include, like "schleppa". | |
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| Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: TimDunleavy 09:57 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - PlayWiz 03:55 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| Peter Filichia has written that he asked Sondheim if the character in FOLLIES was named Weismann so that it would rhyme with "nice man," and Sondheim was offended and said he would never do such a thing. (Peter, please correct me as to the wording!) |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:18 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: Reverse engineering - TimDunleavy 09:57 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| ***Peter Filichia has written that he asked Sondheim if the character in FOLLIES was named Weismann so that it would rhyme with "nice man..."*** Whichever came first, the weird thing about that is "Weisman" would correctly be pronounced with a "z" sound instead of an "s" sound -- as if it were an English or American named spelled "Wiseman" -- which doesn't perfectly rhyme with "nice man," so I've always wondered why they didn't just spell it "Weissman" in FOLLIES, or change it to "Weissman" from "Weisman" after Sondheim came up with that line. |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 12:56 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - Michael_Portantiere 10:18 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| The character named Dimitri Weismann was in early drafts of the show when it was called The Girls Upstairs. And that was the spelling used in playbills and the published script: one S, with a double N at the end. I don't know if that was the character's name from the very beginning, but it was the character's name by three-and-a-half years before rehearsals started. "Beautiful Girls" was a fairly late addition to the score, replacing "Bring on the Girls," which did not include the character's name. (For some reason, they decided to use "Bring on the Girls" rather than "Beautiful Girls" as Roscoe's pre-recorded song in the original opening sequence, used for almost the entire Boston run, sung by Kurt Peterson, but "Beautiful Girls" had replaced it as the song to be used in the show before rehearsals started.) So, yes, the character was not named because of the rhyme. I'm confused by the pronunciation question. I've been under the impression that Weiß or Weis is pronounced with a soft S, and that's what I hear on German dictionaries online. |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:38 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - AlanScott 12:56 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| I have no idea why I mentioned "Beautiful Girls." Anyway, "Broadway Baby" was written well after the character was named Weismann. |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:10 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - AlanScott 12:56 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| "I'm confused by the pronunciation question. I've been under the impression that Weiß or Weis is pronounced with a soft S, and that's what I hear on German dictionaries online." If you checked it out, then maybe I'm wrong about that. I remember being corrected in the past when I pronounced it with a double-s sound, but it's certainly possible that the people correcting me were incorrect themselves. I just re-listened to the original cast recording, and the actor who played Weismann does in fact say it with the soft "s" or double-s sound, so I guess that's what they wanted even if there is some question about the spelling. |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:04 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - Michael_Portantiere 10:18 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| You're of course making the assumption that Mr. Weisman (or eben more appropriately, others) actually used the German pronunciation instead of the Americanized "s" sound. ;-) But I wouldn't doubt that Sondheim didn't reverse engineer that - after all, he didn't do it for "Armfeldt / Charm felt" - given that that was the name in the Bergman film. :-) |
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| re: Reverse engineering | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:39 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Reverse engineering - Chromolume 11:04 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| ***You're of course making the assumption that Mr. Weisman (or eben more appropriately, others) actually used the German pronunciation instead of the Americanized "s" sound. ;-)*** I see your point, but I still don't understand why they didn't just spell it "Weissman." I've never bought the argument that saying, for example, "Weisman" as "Weissman" is okay because it's an "Americanized" pronunciation. To me, it's just wrong. ***But I wouldn't doubt that Sondheim didn't reverse engineer that - after all, he didn't do it for "Armfeldt / Charm felt" - given that that was the name in the Bergman film. :-)*** I was actually going to mention that I used to wonder if that rhyme was reverse engineered, but then I looked it up and found that, indeed, that's her name in the Bergman film. And, come to think of it, there's probably no reason why it would have occurred to Sondheim to use the phrase "she may hope to make her charm felt" if the name "Arrmfeldt" wasn't already in place for him to rhyme with. Whatever -- it's a BRILLIANT rhyme. |
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| re: Hidden puns in character names? | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 04:13 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hidden puns in character names? - PlayWiz 03:55 pm EDT 04/19/20 | |
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| What a coincidence to see this thread as I was JUST pondering this on a walk about an hour ago. Was listening to Dirty Rotten Soundrels and in the song Son of Great Big Stuff, Norbert sings "I get the dough, I get the broad, I'm gettin' rid of Sigmund fraud". It seems unlikely the entire subplot of John Lithgow's character posing a pychoanalyist (or psychiatrist?) was reverse engineered so Yazbek could make this joke, playing off both Freud's profession and the wordplay of Freud/fraud. But I think it's just delicions. It's clever but also only works in a very specific way in reference to the plot of this show, which makes it even more impressive. Another favorite of mine from this show is "She's down for fifty mil', in an addendum to his will, and where there's a will, there's a way". Also works on many levels at one time, being clever word play on its own, but also in service of the plot, manipulating someone for financial gain. |
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