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| re: Streaming PHANTOM — can we start a petition to fix Ramin Karimloo’s vowels? | |
| Posted by: Derek 11:52 am EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Streaming PHANTOM — can we start a petition to fix Ramin Karimloo’s vowels? - GrumpyMorningBoy 05:28 pm EDT 04/18/20 | |
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| Watching the 25th anniversary concert, I was reminded why - though I've always been impressed by the show, its music and its staging - I've never warmed to the main characters. Can anyone explain to me why people think this is a love story? Phantom: disfigured victim of society (depraved on account of deprived) or misogynist stalker? Kidnaps a woman, hypnotises/educates/trains her, spies on her, kills an innocent bystander, kidnaps singer's boyfriend, goes on the lam without paying for his crimes Christine: traumatised orphan or Eve Harrington climber? Misses daddy but happy to learn tricks of the opera trade from mysterious music-lover to get ahead, dumps him when she's acquired his knowledge and she gets a better offer from an aristocrat though (according to Love Never Dies) lives to her reget choosing status over love, paying the ultimate price. Raoul: handsome but weak aristocratic playboy who is interested in his former childhood love only after she's made something of herself onstage, encouraging him to win her heart, then break it by becoming a bankrupt gambler, drunk and jealous husband from hell in Coney Island. Madame Giry: mysterious relation of Mrs Danvers who has eyes everywhere but fails repeatedly to intervene and prevent misery. Opera owners: gilmet-eyed business men determined to squeeze as much out of their new investment - and performers - as possible, whatever the cost. It seems to me that Carlotta is the only likeable character in the piece. She's a prima donna handful, but at least she doesn't claim to be something else. Again, I don't mean to question the show's justified success -- it is a remarkable piece -- I just always feel I am missing something important that makes the rest of the world swoon. What makes these characters likable? I don't empathise with any of them. I'll take Sunset Boulevard any day. She's using him, he's using her -- and both know it. Thoughts? |
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| re: Streaming PHANTOM — can we start a petition to fix Ramin Karimloo’s vowels? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 12:21 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Streaming PHANTOM — can we start a petition to fix Ramin Karimloo’s vowels? - Derek 11:52 am EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| Likability is an over rated virtue in drama. Having said this, I would hardly hold up Norma Desmond and Joe Gillis as likable characters. Mrs. Lovett and Sweeney Todd are not likable folk. Neither is Hedda Gabler, Neither is Troy Maxson from Fences. Complex, infuriating, charming, heart breaking but not "nice". | |
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| re: Streaming PHANTOM — can we start a petition to fix Ramin Karimloo’s vowels? | |
| Posted by: Derek 12:43 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Streaming PHANTOM — can we start a petition to fix Ramin Karimloo’s vowels? - Billhaven 12:21 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| I wouldn't describe Joe/Norma or Mrs Lovett/Sweeney Todd as likable either -- they are couples where one is using the other, but they are aware of it and, for the most part, even admit to it. Some are more emotionally invested in the transactional relationship than others, but no one is pretending to be noble/good That's what bothers me about Phantom and Christine: are they good people in impossible circumstances? Should we feel sorry for them that they are deceiving themselves as to their true motives? I've never been sure what the libretto is trying to tell us on this point. Again, I'm not just trying to provoke, and maybe I need to listen more closely, but I have simply never gotten what moves people about the show. I remember a woman telling me she found it so romantic, but couldn't say why. And I've wondered all these years why I don't get it. |
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| re: Streaming PHANTOM — can we start a petition to fix Ramin Karimloo’s vowels? | |
| Posted by: mikem 03:39 pm EDT 04/23/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Streaming PHANTOM — can we start a petition to fix Ramin Karimloo’s vowels? - Derek 12:43 pm EDT 04/20/20 | |
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| If you ignore Love Never Dies (as everyone should), I don't think either Christine or Raoul are presented badly in POTO. Christine is not that ambitious. She doesn't volunteer to take Carlotta's place; she only agrees after Meg Giry brings up the possibility. Christine misses her father badly and looks at the Phantom as a father figure. She's also only 19 or 20, so she's a bit young and naive. Nothing that Raoul does in POTO is bad. He hasn't seen Christine in years when he sees her on stage. He's not drawn to her fame, but to her talent. He's an wealthy aristocrat; he doesn't need anything from Christine. POTO romanticizes The Phantom's actions. He does a lot of bad things, but because he allegedly does them because of his unrequited love of Christine, it's okay. It's kind of like Dear Evan Hansen in that a lot of the protagonist's questionable behavior is excused away. I think POTO should not have had The Phantom kill anyone. It is unnecessary, and it brands him as a villain. Otherwise, he's playing tricks on Carlotta, who is arrogant, and the owners, and none of them are very sympathetically portrayed. He's scaring people, but he's not hurting them. But then he kills an innocent stagehand, which the show kind of glosses over. |
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