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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 07:12 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - Delvino 06:20 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
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| This writing scintillates, and, overall, scorns at the marketplace mentality that runs deep beneath our industry’s professed love of artistry, community, and public service. But I think we’ve always had a marketplace mentality. In the USA, at any rate. Does Lynn Nottage? Perhaps. Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with being married to a light-skinned man or with not necessarily choosing to identify with her race in every aspect of herself. We used to hear people say they don’t want to be known as an Irish playwright, a female playwright, a gay playwight, etc. I don’t think Nottage needs to perform her blackness. In any way. Not in her personal or professional life. Nor does she need to be a saint. She’s a playwright, and she’s muscled her way into considerable respectability, celebrity, and prizes. Good for her. Was it classy that she didn’t reach out to the cast when they re-cast the show? I don’t know. What would she have said? Pretended like she didn’t want her play hitched to brighter lights? Better silence than hypocrisy. Look, we all know this could be called a cut-throat business. It’s just the reality of it all. Would that Raisin in the Sun have existed wothout Sean Combs? No. Stars are how the world plays now. I like that the writer is pointing to money as the source of so much: credential, celebrity, respect, and license. He’s cutting with a sharp knife. And he’s slicing wild, and there’s something exciting in the writing in that he’s not shying away from the taboos or the targets protected by political correctness. Full disclosure: i know Lynn Nottage’s husband to be very attractive and personable. In fine: Money makes the world go round. Of course. Why not say so? |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:53 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - lordofspeech 07:12 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
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| "....there’s something exciting in the writing...." You say exciting, I say appalling. |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: singleticket 07:32 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - lordofspeech 07:12 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
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| Let's get more people talking about money in the theater and elsewhere, I agree... other people besides this asshole. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:42 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - singleticket 07:32 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
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| the internet droppings of people who are in more need of a psychiatrist's couch than a pulpit for their odiousness has become so commonplace that perhaps we are becoming immune to it. Let's (everyone, not us here) talk about issues and ideas, not people. Oh, and at the risk of mocking lapsed Catholicism, Matthew 7: 1-3. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 07:26 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - lordofspeech 07:12 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
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| When plays move on it is not uncommon for roles to be recast or a new designers assembled. In the last few months this is presented as a breach of some unspoken contract. You do not usually reach out because what you say is almost certain to be hurtful. (What can you say? "We wanted Elizabeth Marvel from the beginning but settled for you." "We like you but feel you missed on something essential in the character that Elizabeth can bring to life.""We just wanted a fresh start.") The weird animosity to interracial couples as somehow inauthentic is odd coming from someone trying to parade anti-racism as his brand. And asking playwrights to work to raise actors salaries (while pointing out that AEA did not) is just odd, |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:56 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - whereismikeyfl 07:26 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
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| "The weird animosity to interracial couples as somehow inauthentic is odd coming from someone trying to parade anti-racism as his brand." I know, can you BELIEVE he actually wrote that? I almost gasped when I read it. Truly shocking. |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: chriscurrie 07:45 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - Michael_Portantiere 09:56 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
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| Except that Grissom did not write that--he quoted another playwright, also black, who is said to be going public with a piece about Nottage's insistence on remaining on the board of Second Stage. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 09:01 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - chriscurrie 07:45 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| Leaving aside questions about the veracity of Grissom's "quotes," he included that statement. When a writer thinks his interviewee says something irrelevant, they leave it out. So in what way was this comment on her being married to a white man relevant? So did Grissom leave this in to undercut the credibility of he interviewee? Probably not. Did he leave it in to show how even Nottage's critics are so blinded that they criticize even the most innocuous things she does? Probably not. In the absence of any clear reason for leaving this in and given the absence of comment, it seems likely that Grissom is including this because he feels he it is a valid point. |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 09:23 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - whereismikeyfl 09:01 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| And yet believing something to be a valid point doesn't make it one. People who call out mixed-race couples presumably believe their argument, but that doesn't make their argument valid. |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:55 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - sirpupnyc 09:23 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| Agreed. Nowadays we hear statements constantly from people who presumably believe their utterly invalid arguments about all kinds of things. The subject of intermarriage (whether racial, religious, or even just ethnicity) has always been popular. That does not make this sort of judgmentalism morally (or intellectually) defensible. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 09:43 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - sirpupnyc 09:23 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| Yes, that was the whole point. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: AC126748 08:18 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - chriscurrie 07:45 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| Except that Grissom did not write that--he quoted another playwright, also black, who is said to be going public with a piece about Nottage's insistence on remaining on the board of Second Stage. Allegedly. At this point, I'm not convinced of the veracity of any anonymous quotes Grissom has included in either of his pieces. Also, whether or not the quote is real, Nottage's marriage and the ethnicity of her husband have nothing to do with the points Grissom is trying to make. Including a quote that calls out Nottage's interracial marriage as a way to discredit or devalue her status as a Black woman and artist was a deliberate choice. |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: chriscurrie 03:22 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - AC126748 08:18 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| It is common for people to discredit sources when what they say doesn't comport to what a reader believes, but leaving that aside, re-reading the piece shows to me that the race of Nottage's husband is relevant because it might (MIGHT) explain why Nottage is not repulsed by the accounts of racism about Carole Rothman of Second Stage, and why she is ignoring calls from other Black artists to resign from the board of that theatre and place her play somewhere else. If she is listening to Rothman and her husband, that may explain a lot about her actions, or her lack of them. Neither her race nor her status as a Black woman were devalued, but her judgment and empathy were questioned. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:07 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - chriscurrie 03:22 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| I don't really want to interrupt the discussion, except to satisfy my curiosity about one thing: how is what Grissom is doing here distinguishable from what Joe McCarthy did that caused Joe Welch to ask him "Have you no sense of decency?" Your claim of relevancy is not predicated on a fact, but on a supposition bereft of factual basis. Reckless character assassination (by him, not you), isn't it? | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Last Edit: AC126748 03:53 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| Posted by: AC126748 03:53 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - chriscurrie 03:22 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| It is frankly insulting to suggest that a Black woman is inclined to tolerate racism because she is married to a white man. And when a writer pens two essays that rely entirely on anonymous sources (with one exception) and all those sources happen to be in lock step with his own worldview, it makes sense to call their veracity into question. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: chriscurrie 09:09 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - AC126748 03:53 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| I see. This is done, of course, by many writers of editorials, which these pieces are, and is accepted by newspapers you probably read and trust and quote. Also, to assume that Blacks do not have racist viewpoints, or vision problems around racists if it helps their careers, is to simplify and define Black people to suit your own beliefs. Which is, I think, racism. Glad you cleared that up for us. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 03:50 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - chriscurrie 03:22 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| " the race of Nottage's husband is relevant because it might (MIGHT) explain why Nottage is not repulsed by the accounts of racism about Carole Rothman of Second Stage" I cannot understand the point you are making. Are you saying his race is relevant because people in interracial relationships are more tolerant of racism? Or because people in interracial relationships are blind to racism? Are black artists calling on Nottage to resign form Second Stage's board? Grissom says there is surprise, but does not actually say there was any direct engagement. Grissom leads the reader to assume many things without actually making a statement. He never says there is anything wrong with interracial marriage but from the first paragraph on keeps referencing the race of Nottage's husband. (Even here people say he did not explicitly write anything judgemental--but did he have to?) He also gives the impression that the actors from the Guthrie were fired from the New York production---but they finished the Minneapolis run. They played their full contract. I am with the commenter who says they feel like taking a bath after reading Grissom. |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: Delvino 09:20 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - whereismikeyfl 07:26 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
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| This, 100%: “The weird animosity to interracial couples as somehow inauthentic is odd coming from someone trying to parade anti-racism as his brand.” |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: theaterguy 10:42 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - Delvino 09:20 pm EDT 06/28/20 | |
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| So Grissom--or rather, his source--feels that Nottage marrying outside her race somehow makes her corrupt, a sellout, and a fraud? I wasn't aware that miscegenation was still illegal. That's all you need to know about this piece, which also excoriates producers for wanting a hit and a playwright for not taking over the producer's/director's job of emailing the cast with updates. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: AC126748 12:03 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - theaterguy 10:42 am EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| It's pretty clear that Grissom holds a personal vendetta against Nottage, likely due to the fact that his friend Johanna Day was going to be replaced on Broadway after originating a role in one of Nottage's plays at the Guthrie. And he's attempting to attack her credibility any way he can, no matter how spurious, including a "quote" that suggests Nottage is somehow less of a Black woman because she's married to a white man. (So are Suzan-Lori Parks, Jackie Sibblies Drury and Antoinette Nwandu, for what it's worth.) If I were Ms. Day, I'd think it wise to distance myself from this character. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:50 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - AC126748 12:03 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| I agree with you that he's attacking her credibility and that it's disgusting, but surely you also know that the questioning of black people who marry white people is not uncommon within the black community. To the extent that Grissom's columns have become a place for people to air all of their dirty laundry and prejudicial thoughts, he's simply allowing a wider audience to read a strain of thought that tends to stay hidden. This attack on her Blackness isn't unique to Grissom, and I was less surprised than others that he printed it, because I've heard similar thoughts expressed over the past few years by a handful of my Black colleagues and friends. | |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 08:43 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - Singapore/Fling 06:50 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| I have also heard many racist, misogynist, and other bigoted views spoken. So I should include them in my writing so that others can see see what is otherwise hidden? This is the weirdest defense of disseminating bigotry that I have ever heard. |
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| re: Here's a link | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 08:57 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Here's a link - whereismikeyfl 08:43 pm EDT 06/29/20 | |
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| It would be a weird defense indeed, if it were a defense. Fortunately, it's not. One can contextualize the quote that Grissom used (which I will presume is not made up) without defending his use of it. | |
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