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| Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Last Edit: Genealley 09:07 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| Posted by: Genealley 09:06 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| All that rap just wears me out. And watching DisneyHam, I realized what really takes away from the enjoyment is that so many performers just don't enunciate clearly. Especially when these lyrics come at you like a Jamaican hurricane. Same problem with most shows "nowadays". A microphone isn't an excuse for sloppy, lazy diction. |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:30 am EDT 07/05/20 | |
| In reply to: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - Genealley 09:06 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| Having just watched the filmed musical, I can assure you that all of the actors are enunciating quite clearly and hitting all of the consonants required for good diction. There is a tendency, at times, for them to miss words (like Sondheim, Miranda doesn't leave people enough space to breathe), and there are moments in the show where the music overwhelms the words.The latter is indeed a problem that we encounter quite a bit in the contemporary theater - although, honestly, there have been times that I've sat in the Met and been frustrated that the singers were drowned out by the orchestra (especially during this season's "Der Rosenkavalier"), so I don't think this problem is in a new one for the dramatic musical arts. I understand that you have a problem hearing the words, but that problem isn't because the performers aren't enunciating. They really are. You might want to investigate your TV set-up or other places where hearing comprehension might be compromised, rather than blaming the performers. |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 09:23 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - Genealley 09:06 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| why do you write like you're running out of time? | |
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| I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Last Edit: Teacher64 11:04 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| Posted by: Teacher64 10:58 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - Genealley 09:06 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| This is the problem, I believe, with rap music in musical theater. Lyrics from a song have to land on your ear and then your brain has to process them. That might take a quarter of a second or so for most people. But with rap, by the time the lyrics have been processed by your brain the next set of lyrics have already been sung and your behind them. It really wasn't so much a diction problem, it's just that rap doesn't really work well with a musical theater piece. And the other problem I had with HAMILTON was that there was a lot of exposition in those lyrics; "First he did this, then he did that, then this happened and then that". The combination of the two (rap music and all that exposition) made HAMILTON incomprehensible for me in the theater. I am planning on watching it this weekend; with the Closed Captioning on. | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 11:35 am EDT 07/05/20 | |
| In reply to: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - Teacher64 10:58 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| I'm an old fart. A traditional 'musical' lover and performer, but I followed the broadcast (no captioning) as well as I did the first time I saw Sweeney Todd live. I had no problem following the story, but I had to LISTEN, something we do less and less in the theater. I think there are a lot of older theater goers who go into the show expecting to not like it because it's 'rap,' but I found most of it no stranger than good patter songs. How many opening night (pre-recording) audiences understood all the lyrics to 'Rock Island' in Music Man, I wonder | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:01 pm EDT 07/05/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - StageDoorJohnny 11:35 am EDT 07/05/20 | |
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| Paraphrasing what one of my most cherished mentors told me years ago, and channeling it through George Washington a la Hamilton, hearing is easy, young man, listening is harder. | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:41 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - Teacher64 10:58 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| You've articulated the problem with rap music in musical theater *for you*. For others, rap is as easy to listen to as any other poetry. You just don't have the practice of listening to rap/hip-hop. I'd suggest spending some time with Kanye to increase your listening comprehension skills. | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:45 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - Singapore/Fling 04:41 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| I wouldn't go quite that far. I think all of us have music that we love/like/dislike/hate. I don't think any amount of training is going to drag those at the lower end of that continuum in relation to hip hop or rap music to "enlightenment" [:-)] any more that the large swath of people who hate so-called musical theatre music are not going to continue zoning out on it despite the best efforts of anyone. The fact is that we now have parts of at least three generations for whom hip hop is the soundtrack of their lives. | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 06:44 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:43 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - ryhog 05:45 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| I think we're talking about different things. I'm not suggesting that Teacher put in the work to *appreciate* hip hop, because their complaint was based on comprehension, rather than enjoyment. If they're serious about the barrier to entry being able to follow the words, then they can take steps to learn to listen better. | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Posted by: andyboy 10:40 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - Teacher64 10:58 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| Yes, the exposition THAT IS NOT COUCHED IN CONFLICT and is simply reportage is tough to stay tuned in to no matter what the musical genre, and I'm afraid HAMILTON has much. | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:43 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:39 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - Teacher64 10:58 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| I would guarantee that none of us, hearing "Ya Got Trouble" or "Getting Married Today" or "Franklin Shepard, Inc" or "Model Behavior" or "Handful Of Keys" or "I'll Show You A Thing or Two" or "If You Han't But You Did" etc etc got all the lyrics on the first listen either. You get the gist of it (sometimes you get more of it at first, sometimes less), and the more you hear it, the more you pick up. It's not just about current rap music - it can easily apply to any wordy, patter-type song. | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Posted by: mikem 11:03 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - Chromolume 11:39 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| This is an interesting article looking at words per minute for cast albums of various musicals. Hamilton has about twice as many words per minute as the others. The article also looks at specific fast portions, and finds Getting Married Today and Guns and Ships (the fastest part of Hamilton) are very close. The author gives the "speed prize" to Getting Married Today, because the fast portion is longer. The fastest portion of Satisfied isn't that far behind. Renee Elise Goldsberry is so good at what she does, though, that every word is crystal clear. |
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| Link | https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/hamilton-is-the-very-model-of-a-modern-fast-paced-musical/ |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:34 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - Chromolume 11:39 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| There is another thing that I noticed which is a little interesting to me. Many of the people who claim to have trouble making out the lyrics in Hamilton are also fans of opera. How many of them understand everything being sung on first (or second, or third, or last) encounter? I have been going to the opera for over fifty years (yes I was a nursing baby!) and I don't. | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Posted by: Teacher64 11:48 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - Chromolume 11:39 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| A patter song is one song and tends to be comical, not necessarily geared towards plot exposition. If a large amount of numbers in a musical were patter songs, that might be problematic. | |
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| re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:27 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I had a problem with the lyrics in the theater - Teacher64 11:48 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| Out of curiosity, could you take a couple of minutes and list the songs in Hamilton that you are describing as rap? | |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Posted by: claploudly 10:21 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - Genealley 09:06 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| I didn't miss word in the show. | |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Posted by: SCH 09:52 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - Genealley 09:06 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| I'm really shocked to hear this. I haven't watched the film yet, but I did see this cast live twice. The first time was at the Public when I didn't know a word or a note of the score. I was amazed at the diction when I saw it that first time, particularly Renee Elise Goldsberry's incredible clear and fast raps. I'm not someone whose ear was particularly attuned to rap, yet I was able to understand (and marvel at) every glorious word on the first hearing. The diction I heard was anything but sloppy and lazy. I'd be very surprised to discover that was not the case in the filmed performances. | |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Posted by: vegas 10:01 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - SCH 09:52 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| I agree that the original cast's enunciation at the Public was very good. I had no previous acquaintance with the show or the music, and my ears aren't the best, but I had no problems understanding the words during the live performance. I haven't seen the streaming version. | |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 01:42 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - vegas 10:01 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| The quality of the sound design for Hamilton is unlike any sound design on shows that came before it. Many new innovations were incorporated due to the complexity of the lyrics. | |
| Link | 'Hamilton' Is Revolutionizing the Art and Science of Broadway Sound Design |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 10:16 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - vegas 10:01 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| Perception, perhaps. There are a LOT of words, and at times they come very quickly. Sometimes I have trouble following wordy texts or heavy accents IF I'm consciously focusing on the words. I end up getting hung up on the fact that I'm not getting them all, so it gets worse. If I let go of it and let in the music of the text/speech, then i get it all just fine. It's not the diction getting in the way, it's my listening. | |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Last Edit: mikem 10:36 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| Posted by: mikem 10:35 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - sirpupnyc 10:16 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| I definitely felt that way when I first saw the show. I went in completely cold, and there were so many words hurtling at us, often at high speed, that it sometimes felt hard to keep up. But the cast had great diction; it was my processing that was the issue. I often felt one step behind. When I saw the show again, I had basically memorized the cast album by that point, and I could relax and luxuriate more in the show, so to speak. |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Posted by: JohnPopa 10:31 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - sirpupnyc 10:16 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| Some of it may be the camera work, too. In the theater you can focus directly on what you choose to but on video it's rare that a camera will stay still long enough to let you focus on one person. The camera work on 'Hamilton' isn't insanely distracting, but I have no doubt it's distracting enough to pull people out of digging into the words coming out of the TV (which isn't the same as live sound, either.) | |
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| Are any of you watching it with the English subtitles? nm | |
| Posted by: kieran 10:35 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - JohnPopa 10:31 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| nm | |
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| re: Are any of you watching it with the English subtitles? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:07 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: Are any of you watching it with the English subtitles? nm - kieran 10:35 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| My husband wanted to but we couldn't figure out how to do it. How do we do it? | |
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| re: Are any of you watching it with the English subtitles? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:42 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Are any of you watching it with the English subtitles? - KingSpeed 01:07 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| You should see a small box up in the top right corner of the screen. Click on that, and you'll be able to figure it out from there. ;-) | |
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| re: Are any of you watching it with the English subtitles? | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 03:20 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Are any of you watching it with the English subtitles? - Chromolume 02:42 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Using Roku. Don't see a box. Sigh. | |
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| Using Roku: found the subtitle icon....... | |
| Posted by: BarbaraT 09:26 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Are any of you watching it with the English subtitles? - KingSpeed 03:20 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| but not until after hitting "Play" once the screen for HAMILTON was up (having buffered a bit first). Then noticed the grey box, upper right corner, which, btw, looked more like a smudge I may have missed when dusting than an obvious icon. |
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| re: Using Roku: found the subtitle icon....... | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:27 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: Using Roku: found the subtitle icon....... - BarbaraT 09:26 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| No box on my screen BUT hitting * on the remote worked. | |
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| re: Using Roku: found the subtitle icon....... | |
| Posted by: BarbaraT 07:57 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Using Roku: found the subtitle icon....... - KingSpeed 07:27 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Thanks, just tried the * on the Roku remote. Yep, that worked for me too. Prompts not evident/user-friendly on the Disney+/Roku interface. Thankfully, we have each other on ATC! |
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| re: Using Roku: found the subtitle icon....... | |
| Posted by: dbg 10:25 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: Using Roku: found the subtitle icon....... - BarbaraT 09:26 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Thanks so much for this. I bought an Amazon Fire Stick the other day and was trying much of yesterday to figure out how to get captioning on Disney+ but couldn't find it. I managed to find it on BroadwayHD but couldn't on Disney+. Did what you said, hit Play, and there was the box up in the right hand corner, which enabled me to set the captioning. Am inviting some friends to watch Hamilton, all of us somewhat hearing challenged, and this will make it very easy to follow for those not all that familiar with the score. When I first saw Hamilton on Broadway, I decided to try a hearing device, which I'd not used before. The woman giving them out said I would love it and would understand every word. I have asked for one ever since and will do so again once we can all get back to Broadway. | |
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| re: Using Roku: found the subtitle icon....... | |
| Posted by: BarbaraT 11:42 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Using Roku: found the subtitle icon....... - dbg 10:25 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| My pleasure. Glad that process worked for you. Was surprised that the subtitle/caption capability was not under "Settings". Having that grey icon visible only *after* hitting "Play" strikes me as counter-intuitive. Once found, I used that feature a lot while watching on Disney+. (Had not seen HAMILTON live, though have listened to the cast recording). Happy viewing! |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:47 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:44 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - Genealley 09:06 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| "nowadays"?? Why the scare quotes? I won't even ask why a hurricane needs to be Jamaican for you to make a point. |
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| re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 01:03 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - Chromolume 09:44 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| There was definitely racism in his post. | |
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| Hysterical! | |
| Last Edit: Genealley 02:21 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| Posted by: Genealley 02:05 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - KingSpeed 01:03 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| "Nowadays" - meaning: "I'm sounding like an old fart". Not referring to any specific person. A generation, maybe... Jamaican: as in what I thought was Hamilton's birthplace. I was wrong. OK...so... a Nevisian Hurricane. Racist? Really? |
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| re: Hysterical! | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 03:22 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: Hysterical! - Genealley 02:05 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| You could've just said hurricane. | |
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| re: Hysterical! | |
| Posted by: Genealley 03:23 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hysterical! - KingSpeed 03:22 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| You could not have called it what you did. | |
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| re: Hysterical! | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:30 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hysterical! - Genealley 03:23 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| I’m calling out racism when I see it. | |
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| re: Hysterical! | |
| Posted by: Kjisgroovy 04:38 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hysterical! - Genealley 03:23 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Your post came across as a little racist. I don’t think it was intentional. But you’ve got a bias and it poked through. Or your phrasing lacked clarity in such a way it was misinterpreted. The thing about racism is that other people decide if what you did felt racist to them. Your intentions don’t matter because you’re likely not aware of your biases. It’s tough when this happens but it’s also a great opportunity to take the note and say “oops. It’s like when you have broccoli in your teeth. You can’t see it. And you wouldn’t cry “Hysterical!” if someone pointed it out. You’d say, “oh geez, thanks.” No one is saying you’re a bad person. I always like your posts and look forward to more of them. |
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| re: Hysterical! | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:26 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hysterical! - Kjisgroovy 04:38 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Just a sidebar that's worth restating: the notion of systemic racism is that it is not intentional. It is nefarious because it does not express itself the way that red flags are raised when a racist demagogue does. | |
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| re: Hysterical! | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 05:15 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 05:14 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hysterical! - Kjisgroovy 04:38 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| In other words, Microagression 101, at very least. I would also surmise that Genealley went into watching the show already knowing/determining he wasn't going to like it. That's fairly predictable. |
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| Hysterical! Rev 2 | |
| Posted by: Genealley 07:00 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hysterical! - Chromolume 05:14 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Love all these parsings of what I meant and didn't mean. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. |
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| re: Hysterical! Rev 2 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:31 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: Hysterical! Rev 2 - Genealley 07:00 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Does anyone MEAN to be racist? The most racist people almost always say they’re not racist. A cigar is a cigar indeed. | |
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| re: Hysterical! Rev 2 | |
| Posted by: Kjisgroovy 07:10 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: Hysterical! Rev 2 - Genealley 07:00 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Nobody is parsing what you meant. What you meant is not the point. | |
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| Exactly. nm | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 07:29 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Hysterical! Rev 2 - Kjisgroovy 07:10 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Hhhg | |
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| You need a better sound system. | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 09:13 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: Hamilton - Diction...DICTION!!! - Genealley 09:06 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| While the sound mix isn't quite what I might wish for, it's actually the ensemble & orchestra that I wish I could hear more of. The soloists are crystal clear within my home theater. If you don't like rap, you don't like rap, and that's okay too. But this wordplay and patter shouldn't sound like Gilbert & Sullivan. - GMB |
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| Another potential explanation for sound problems | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:01 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: You need a better sound system. - GrumpyMorningBoy 09:13 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| In speaking with a tech-intense friend who was having audibility issues that seemed as preposterous to me as the OP's, he puzzled out that weak bandwidth was likely resulting in a downgrade of the audio. If you have a weak Internet connection for whatever reason (and if you were trying to watch Hamilton during a busy time on cable, that could be the culprit), it could be you were getting murky sound because of that. I am just the messenger on this so please do not expect me to clarify. :-) |
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| re: You need a better sound system. | |
| Posted by: Delvino 06:24 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: You need a better sound system. - GrumpyMorningBoy 09:13 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| Agreed. I thought the sound was quite wonderful, and I was anticipating a problem. In the last filmed show I saw (in the cinema), Bandstand, the sound was atrocious, tinny at times, devoid of theatrical feel, not enough volume, no warmth. I was stunned at the quality because the visual work was quite good. I feared that Hamilton might have similar problems (I should not have; a 10 million dollar plus film production) but knew that at least the volume was in my control. No worry. I turned it up only occasionally, and heard all of the words when it was comfortably low. The sound mix felt very consistent. | |
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| re: You need a better sound system. | |
| Posted by: JohnPopa 10:11 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
| In reply to: You need a better sound system. - GrumpyMorningBoy 09:13 pm EDT 07/03/20 | |
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| I definitely agree about the ensemble being too far back in the Disney Plus mix. I didn't have any problems with the diction from the leads. Renee Goldsberry is a rap machine - her role suffered the most when I saw the show on tour. |
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