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| re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON | |
| Posted by: andyboy 10:35 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON - GrumpyMorningBoy 09:29 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| I can definitely see and honor your argument. But I personally feel the choreography is often used to dress up what are long stretches of narration and reportage of events. There is a lot more telling than showing in this show, smart as it is, and I think the heavy choreography helps an audience feel they're getting some sort of experience during stretches that are not really couched in action or a lot of character conflict. | |
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| re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:32 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON - andyboy 10:35 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| "There is a lot more telling than showing in this show, " I have heard and read this statement from several people, but I don't think it's fully accurate. Yes, there is a lot of telling in HAMILTON, but also a LOT of showing. As others have pointed out, there's also a lot of showing DURING sections that are worded as narration, which I guess is relatively unusual, but that only makes the show seem fresher and more original in my opinion. Interesting to note that two of the most powerful numbers in 1776, "Momma, Look Sharp" and "Molasses to Rum," could definitely described as examples of telling rather than showing. |
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| re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 01:20 am EDT 07/05/20 | |
| In reply to: re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON - Michael_Portantiere 01:32 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| Perhaps this is needless to say but telling about offstage events rather than showing them goes back to the earliest plays we have and we can find examples in many (probably most) of the greatest plays ever written. | |
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| re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:15 pm EDT 07/05/20 | |
| In reply to: re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON - AlanScott 01:20 am EDT 07/05/20 | |
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| "Perhaps this is needless to say but telling about offstage events rather than showing them goes back to the earliest plays we have and we can find examples in many (probably most) of the greatest plays ever written." Of course, but I have seen several people express the opinion that there is "more telling that showing" in HAMILTON, and I just wanted to say I don't think that's fully accurate, even though there's obviously a certain amount of truth to the statement. But also, to the extent that it's true, I don't see it as a flaw in the writing -- certainly not for this kind of new-age historical epic. |
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| re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 12:47 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 12:45 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON - andyboy 10:35 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| I'm gonna partially agree and partially disagree with you here, andyboy. Obviously for the battle scenes, even though we've got rather 'tell, not show' lyrics like those within "Guns and Ships," we've got to see the ensemble out there portraying soldiers. But have a closer look at those lyrics; the stakes and the conflict are right there in the text. It's all over the musical subtext as well. A bald lyric like "32,000 troops in New York Harbor" would be unemotional on the page; Lin-Manuel set that to music which starkly helps us appreciate what's happening. A battle is brewing and people are going to DIE. In the theater, seeing it for the first time, I remember that it was one of the things which impressed me most. Mr. Miranda found ways to continually raise the stakes throughout all of the writing. I could make another thread of that. But back to the topic at hand... I think the show needs to visually depict actual deaths of human beings the audience needs feel the cost of those losses. The lyrics and music are telling us what to imagine in terms of those battles, sure, but I'll argue that we NEED to SEE all of them. The choreography does that. This is especially true for "Yorktown (The World Turned Upside Down,)" which is very much a tell-not-show lyric. There's no way that song would have such heft without the ensemble on stage, both singing and dancing. Of course, there are any number of more traditional 'crowd' scenes where the ensemble is playing voters choosing whom to vote for, wedding guests, bar patrons, etc. I think the more discretionary use of ensemble is for something like "Wait for It," or "The Room Where it Happens," which are taking place within Burr's own mind. (The same could be said for "Satisfied," which rewinds out of the wedding scene into a very internal part of Angelica's mind.) Those are, to me, numbers where I think many choreographers would have given the ensemble a chance to rest backstage. But I'm willing to argue that keeping the ensemble onstage in those numbers doesn't just raise the stakes of what Burr and Angelica are contemplating; it maintains the sense that these people are making history. - GMB |
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| re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON | |
| Posted by: andyboy 04:59 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON - GrumpyMorningBoy 12:45 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| All good points, GMB, and you've clearly looked at it more deeply than I (I saw it once in the theater and the thoughts I expressed above are ones I felt painfully aware of in real time as it was going by). But I'll agree that the ensemble IS necessary during those battle sequences -- I just wish those sequences, and many others, didn't continually rely so heavily on narration in the writing. It's a stylistic choice, for sure -- and one that rap is at least well suited for (though rap, of course, is only a portion of this diverse score), but a choice that I personally find less involving emotionally and mentally as scenes where we actually see human interaction spurring the narrative forward. | |
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| another observation re the use of the ensemble | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:15 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON - GrumpyMorningBoy 12:45 pm EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| There are also quite a few times (contrary to the suggestion that the choreo is nonstop, but that's not my point) that the ensemble is watching the action from above. I have always taken this to be a reinforcement of "history has its eyes on you." | |
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| re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:40 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
| In reply to: re: In defense of 'too much choreography' in HAMILTON - andyboy 10:35 am EDT 07/04/20 | |
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| I asked someone else a similar question, but did not get an answer: maybe you wouldn't mind. Could you identify these long stretches of narration and reportage? I have seen the show 5 times, including once through the film, and I cannot find them. Yes of course there is some narration and reportage but most of the choreography that is the subject of this thread seems to me to be during periods of action and conflict. | |
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