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| I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:01 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Decided to put on the YouTube video of the 2013 CAROUSEL live concert from Lincoln Center... in which Jessie Mueller absolutely nails Carrie better than anyone I've ever seen... But I'm bored enough to ask: Does anyone actually want to hear opera stars sing these roles?!?? Are there opera fans who see Broadway musicals and think, "gosh, I'd really enjoy this a lot more if these people had properly trained opera voices." i want to meet these people. i want to slap these people. Who the eff are these people?!? Nathan Gunn's acting is so bad in this that the benevolent director of this telecast puts the cameras more on Kelli O'Hara during Billy's verses of "If I Loved You" than on Billy. What she's doing, sitting there silent, is more interesting than what he's doing. I know that a handful of shows -- CAROUSEL, SWEENEY, THE MOST HAPPY FELLA -- continue to get performed by opera companies to kinda fill up their season with lighter fare, but how do audiences react? Why the fuck did Bernstein want to hear a WEST SIDE STORY sung by Kiri TeKanawa and Jose Carreras?!? Who wanted to hear Bryn Terfel perform Sweeney? WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE? If you know them, please help me understand them. I want to talk some sense into them. Opera people rarely rarely rarely do better by this material than musical theatre people. - GMB |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 03:36 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 03:35 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| This post made me laugh, I am afraid I'm with you GrumpyMorningBoy. I did love Paolo Szot in SOUTH PACIFIC. Can't agree with those who find Renée Fleming to be a good actor although she has surprised me often, particuarly in the recent DER ROSENKAVALIER at The Met. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 06:19 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 06:03 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - singleticket 03:35 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
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| I was actually more impressed by Paulo Szot's acting than his singing in "South Pacific", as he held back (maybe at director's request) from really singing out "Never let her go" at the end of the first act and several other instances. Maybe they were afraid that the Ezio Pinza full-throated approach might scare people nowadays who aren't used to hearing a big operatic sound outside of an opera house. On, tv they transposed down Kristin Chenoweth's songs as Marian in "The Music Man" because, who knows-- maybe they thought people didn't know what to make of a high note by a soprano on broadcast tv? Like a soprano's high notes were as foreign as a visitor from Mars and heaven protect today's viewers? Very silly as she could have easily sung it as written and have been more effective. Bryn Terfel's acting as Figaro in "The Marriage of Figaro" at the Met when he first started there was very good, though as he took on more Wagnerian stand and sing roles, his acting got less impressive and his voice started to get more of a wobble with the heavier roles. The combination of his rather lackluster Sweeney against the very frenetic and over-acted (and we're talking over-acted against folks like Dorothy Loudon!) Emma Thompson's Mrs. Lovett, made for a less than really effective duo in "Sweeney Todd". Many times it's folks who are wonderful opera singers but less than stars who are really good in musicals. I saw Joyce Castle do a terrific Mrs. Lovett at City Opera years ago, as well as terrific work in opera. Regina Resnik, a name but not as big a star in opera (say, on the level as Carmen that Rise Stevens was a huge star), was effective in musicals, as those who saw her in "A Little Night Music" and "Cabaret" might attest. Robert Weede is fabulous on the OCR of "Most Happy Fella" and there are extended videos from "The Ed Sullivan Show" which show his acting was quite fine (the director must have approved the way he handled the Italian accent and lyrics that Frank Loesser supplied). His voice was gorgeous. It's a matter of making the voice adjust to the style. Maria Callas, who pretty much sang exclusively opera, cared about the acting so much that sometimes she would sacrifice the quality of her voice (and she was many times criticized for this by her detractors). Teresa Stratas would sometimes do this, and she was quite wonderful in her short-lived run in "Rags" and equally great and compelling vocally and acting-wise doing all three roles in Puccini's "Il Trittico" and her other roles in opera. Julia Migenes started as Hodel in the original "Fiddler on the Roof" before turning to opera and mostly having her career in Europe. Opera folks like the late Tatiana Troyanos, Morley Meredith and James MacCracken started on Broadway as well. Besides changing one's vocal technique for musicals by not using as much vibrato, employing more of a straighter tone, more of an emphasis on diction, and sometimes having to sound charactery rather than full-out legit, they have to be able to deal with dialogue proficiently and as well as someone who's doing a non-musical for the most part. Patricia Routledge could sing operetta incredibly well with a wonderful technique, but if you ever hear her doing the famous showstopper "Duet for One" from "1600 Pennsylvania Avenue", she makes herself sound downright ugly in tone at times on purpose, and stops the show cold. The audio is on YouTube. Had she wanted to, Barbara Cook would have been smashing in opera in soubrette and light lyric-coloratura roles. She even auditioned for "Candide" Leonard Bernstein by doing the full lyric-spinto Madama Butterfly's entrance, and she impressed Bernstein into giving her Cunegonde. I once asked Cook about whether she wanted to do opera. She told me that she was really interested in musical comedy and back then, there was enough work in it to make a career. But she'd have been wonderful as all the -inas, Rosina, Adina, Nanetta, plus Adele in "Die Fledermaus", Musetta, etc. if she wanted to pursue them. But she's probably a lot more famous than many who did those roles because she originated Cunegonde and Amalia and Marian the Librarian, when folks were writing musicals that are still being done 60 years later. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:39 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:36 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - PlayWiz 06:03 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
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| It's a matter of making the voice adjust to the style. That's certainly a major component. And, much as I'm stereotyping here (also take into account that I'm a huge opera fan, so I'm not being disdainful, just realistic), many opera singers generally seem to concentrate on the music rather than the text, whereas singing the text is much more an expected part of a musical. So, especially with musicals that are heavily based in text (Sondheim, for instance), the music often gets oversung by opera singers, at the expense of that text. Yes, some singers can really get how to approach things the other way around, but many just can't. A related symptom is the tendency to only go for rounded vowels. There was a concert A Little Night Music in Boston some years back with the Boston Pops (with Christine Ebersole and Ron Raines, who were great) that gave most of the supporting roles to young classical singers from the Tanglewood program. I remember, in "It Would Have Been Wonderful," how Ron Raines would say "if" but the young American classical singer doing Carl-Magnus could only say "eeeeeeeef." Is that English?? Similarly, when the Theatre Du Chatelet did Into The Woods, it opened with the theatre singers in the cast singing "I wish," but the more operatic voices singing "I weeeesh." It takes one right out of the performance because it sounds phony and overblown. (I was, however, very pleasantly surprised at Natalie Dessay's Fosca when the same company did Passion - hearing this wonderful coloratura get very appropriately "speak-y" with Fosca's music was a treat. I think she really understood how to go about it.) |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 11:20 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:16 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Chromolume 09:36 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
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| I believe that Natalie Dessay started off training as an actress, and it shows in her performances. She retired from singing opera, but still performs in other venues both acting and singing. When I was singing a lot of opera, my opera coach, who's at the Met, was the son of a well-known Broadway musical director and producer. So he knows the difference between musicals and opera performance, even though he concentrates much more on opera. When I first brought in some musical theater stuff to him, he said "You've really got the style right!". Later, when I had been singing a lot of musical theater and had been cast in another opera for him to coach me in, he had me add back vibrato and ground myself more for projection's sake to get back into the different vocal production and style that was right for opera. They have their similarities, but you're right -- someone singing "eeeef" instead of "if" just sounds wrong and artificial in musical theater, unless you intend your character to be that way. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:51 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:49 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - PlayWiz 11:16 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
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| Staying on "ee" vs. "ih" for a moment - I also have a fun memory of a classmate of mine in high school who was an amazing baritone, but was (if I remember correctly) not vocally trained at all - it was all just amazing talent. After his freshman year in college, he came back for the summer program we had in our town to play Harold in The Music Man. I was playing Jacey Squires, but also doing some vocal coaching, and I remember a night early on when we met to go through his songs. I remember we were doing the lead-in to "76 Trombones" and he, now with some definite classical voice training behind him, came out with "please observe me if you wheel / I'm Professor Harold Heel." And I stopped and said something like "my god, what have they done to your voice?" ;-) | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:39 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Chromolume 09:49 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
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| Well,Ethel Merman did say that George Gershwin told her to never take a singing lesson. She was a natural and someone would have tried to homogenize her voice most likely. | |
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| McCracken, not MacCracken, correction. nm | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 06:26 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - PlayWiz 06:03 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
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| nm | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Al10chim 07:17 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| We really enjoyed Mr Gunn and thought he was the best Billy we've ever seen. We have seen quite a few. | |
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| Partly prompted by this thread... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:42 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Al10chim 07:17 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| ....I re-watched all of the NY Phil CAROUSEL last night, and it confirmed my feeling that this was not only one of the best concert presentations of a musical I've ever seen, but one of the best productions of a musical -- period. I thought the entire cast is great, certainly including Nathan Gunn. Just superb. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Page 08:00 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Al10chim 07:17 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| Me too. This production of Carousel is still my favorite and I have seen many that I have loved including the last Broadway revival. Phenomenal cast! Beautifully staged for a concert version. I was mesmerized. After the show I inquired about a new cast album of this New York Philharmonic production. Sadly, there was nothing planned. I was most surprised when this production later aired on WETA and later released on DVD. Three years ago I saw Nathan Gunn perform with Georgetown Concert Series at St. John's Episcopal Church, Washington, DC. Excellent! |
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| Renee Flemming? | |
| Posted by: andPeggy 08:05 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| It's interesting that you brought up Carousel, but not Renee Flemming. I didn't see her in Carousel. No one seemed to hate her in it. How was she? | |
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| Not bad but hearing Blythe in the role was a visceral experience | |
| Posted by: fm_15 10:30 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Renee Flemming? - andPeggy 08:05 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I had seen the Met mezzo Stephanie Blythe in Wagner's Ring Cycle as Fricka the previous year before she played Nellie in the Philharmonic's concert version a few years ago, so I was familiar with her voice. Yet even that did not prepare me for the bomb she detonated the night I saw it. Being cheap, I had bought a 3rd Tier side box high above the the stage. The sight lines were so bad I heard they refunded some money to those who complained. The microphone and sound engineering were terrible and my partner who had never seen Carousel lost interest a quarter of the way through because he could not clearly hear nor understand any of the lyrics. That's how bad the sound was! And then, You'll Never Walk Alone arrived... Blythe's voice has the heft of an 18-wheeler but the supple smoothness of heavy cream. No echo-y microphone could harness her. Her voice rose over the poor mic-ing and resonated through the hall, growing and growing with each verse. By the end, I actually reached out to hold onto the hand rail of the box seat to steady myself because I swore I felt the box vibrating and for a moment actually thought it was going to collapse! I think i agree with the OP that this shouldn't be a trend where an opera star is hired in a knee-jerk reaction. However, if the voice is suited and the acting chops are there...it can make for an exciting performance. Paulo Szot in South Pacific was genuinely dreamy in the non singing parts and is a great example of perfect casting. |
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| re: Renee Flemming? | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:07 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Renee Flemming? - andPeggy 08:05 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| While acting, she was better than good. She was clearly a professional actress. Not the kinda performance where you'd say, "Wow, she could do a straight show," although she's stretching her own boundaries so much and received good notices for the Victoria Clark role in THE LIGHT IN THE PIAZZA... ... but her singing was just so gorgeous that you really didn't care. And this is where I'll say that an operatically trained voice shines -- it's in a live performance. She didn't even need that body mic, clearly, to fill the house with sound, and it was truly lovely. - GMB |
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| re: Renee Flemming? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:42 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Renee Flemming? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:07 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Fleming starred on Broadway in the nonmusical Living on Love, playing an opera singer. She had previously played it at Williamstown. Her acting seemed like an opera singer who's worked hard to be able to act in a nonmusical. She wasn't painful or embarrassing but she wasn't really good. Nettie doesn't have have a whole lot of dialogue in Carousel. Probably something she could do successfully. |
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| re: Renee Flemming? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:47 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Renee Flemming? - AlanScott 04:42 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| "Her acting seemed like an opera singer who's worked hard to be able to act in a nonmusical. She wasn't painful or embarrassing but she wasn't really good." That's how I felt about Fleming's acting in CAROUSEL, and unfortunately, even her singing in that show was not enjoyable (to me) because of all those silly embellishments that were added. I wonder if those were her idea, or the musical director's? Either way, I DID NOT like them. One of the many wrongheaded decisions in that production, in my opinion. |
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| re: Renee Flemming? | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 12:47 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Renee Flemming? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:07 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I thought her stiff and studied. | |
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| Bernstein did not want to hear Carreras sing Tony | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:53 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| "Why the fuck did Bernstein want to hear a WEST SIDE STORY sung by Kiri TeKanawa and Jose Carreras?!?" Well, he didn't want to hear Carreras. This has been discussed here several times over the years. Bernstein ended up with Carreras, but he never wanted him for the role. Some of the entire mess was that DG very much wanted opera stars. The story as told in Jack Gottlieb’s book Working With Bernstein is that Bernstein wanted Neil Shicoff to sing Tony, but he declined because the sessions were to start one day after the sessions for his first opera recording, Rigoletto conducted by Sinopoli, were to end. Domingo was suggested but Bernstein reportedly vetoed him because of his Spanish accent. At a meeting at which Bernstein was not present, Bernstein's manager, Harry Kraut (depicted as an extremely unpleasant man in Charlie Harmon's memoir of his years working for Bernstein), said that he was sure that Bernstein would be happy with Carreras. Bernstein had heard him in London, according to Kraut, and would want him. Others were skeptical for exactly the reason you would think. But Carreras was available and happy to do it. It turned out that the tenor whom Bernstein had heard in London was the Liverpool-born tenor Alberto Remedios, who was best known for singing Wagner heldentenor roles in English at the English National Opera. Bernstein's annoyance with the entire situation is said to partly explain how unpleasant he was to Carreras but it wasn't Carreras's fault. It was Harry Kraut's fault, and I suppose his own fault for not being more involved. In the 1940s through the 1960s or so, there was actually much more ”crossover," as they now say, than there is now. It was mostly with less-famous names, but many opera people who sang at New York City Opera and major regional opera houses also regularly or at least sometimes sang in musicals and seem to have done well. We have some of those people on recordings of musicals, and I think most people don't realize that some of those people were opera singers. Not famous opera names but opera singers. In general, with a few exceptions, I think the current opera singers I've heard and seen in musicals have not successfully made the transition. |
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| What about Peter Hofmann? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:56 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Bernstein did not want to hear Carreras sing Tony - AlanScott 07:53 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Thanks for all of that info, Alan, but you didn't mention Peter Hofmann. I'm sure I've read that he was supposed to sing Tony in that DG recording of WSS, but then (obviously) it didn't work out, for some reason I don't recall. Have you never heard/read that? I've heard Hofmann sing from WSS on another recording conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas, and at least he was able to sing the part without (much of) an accent. | |
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| re: What about Peter Hofmann? | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 06:51 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:50 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: What about Peter Hofmann? - Michael_Portantiere 08:56 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| I don't recall ever having read that Hofmann, who had recorded Tristan with Bernstein a couple of years earlier, was supposed to sing Tony, and a quickish search didn't bring up anything, which doesn't mean it wasn't considered. That Bernstein recording with Hofmann and his then-wife, Deborah Sasson, came out around the same time that the Bernstein-DG WSS recording was issued. At least one critic reviewed the two of them together. |
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| re: What about Peter Hofmann? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:08 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What about Peter Hofmann? - AlanScott 06:50 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
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| Thanks, Alan. I don't recall where I read that Hofmann was to have done the Bernstein-conducted WSS, so maybe my memory is just faulty -- of, if anyone did write that anywhere, maybe they were just confused by the other recording. On the other hand: If it IS true that Hofmann was almost signed, or at least considered, for the Bernstein-conducted WSS but wound up on that other recording instead, I suppose it's possible that was due to the fact that the recordings were on different labels? |
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| re: What about Peter Hofmann? | |
| Posted by: larry13 09:19 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What about Peter Hofmann? - AlanScott 06:50 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
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| I had to look up Deborah Sasson, whom I'd never heard of. Yes, she was once married to Hofmann but it is Hildegard Behrens who recorded Isolde with him and Bernstein. | |
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| re: What about Peter Hofmann? | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 09:53 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:52 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What about Peter Hofmann? - larry13 09:19 pm EDT 07/31/20 | |
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| I know that Hildegard Behrens was Isolde on the Bernstein-conducted Tristan und Isolde. In the post to which I responded, Michael wrote this: "I've heard Hofmann sing from WSS on another recording conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas, and at least he was able to sing the part without (much of) an accent." I replied partly with: “That Bernstein recording with Hofmann and his then-wife, Deborah Sasson, came out around the same time that the Bernstein-DG WSS recording was issued. At least one critic reviewed the two of them together.” The recording listed and described on the linked page is the one that I meant when I mentioned “That Bernstein recording.” That is the recording to which Michael was referring. The Bernstein Tristan und Isolde was released around September 1983. The Bernstein-conducted WSS and the Tilson Thomas-Hofmann-Sasson Bernstein on Broadway were both released around March-April 1985, which was why at least one critic reviewed them together. |
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| Link | Bernstein on Broadway |
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| appreciate this backstory! Thank you. (nm) | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:03 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Bernstein did not want to hear Carreras sing Tony - AlanScott 07:53 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| nm means neoclassical muck | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 07:04 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Too much to lump into one basket, sir. The musicals from an earlier era were conceived for legit voices who could sing without mics but not opera voices. The line between the two was thin in those days but it was there. Alfred Drake (Oklahoma, Kiss Me Kate, Kismet) also had a minor opera career although in my opinion he was second rate as an opera baritone (just not enough meat on the bones of the voice) for opera but one of the greats for musicals of the era. That era extends beyond but for sure includes The Most Happy Fella. I defy anyone who is not a robust opera baritone to satisfactorily encompass Tony, but the rest of the parts don't particularly require opera voices except maybe Marie. About late 60s everything got mic'd and I have to agree with you somewhat that opera voices are over ripe for these shows with the exception of Sweeny where Bryn Terfel tore through it like blazes, sorry if you don't agree. I totally agree that casting Billy Bigelow with an opera singer is a major mistake. If you think Nathan Gunn isn't perfect casting, listen to the recording with Barbara Cook as Julie and Samuel Ramey Billy. Talk about badly cast!!!!! The opera voices could cross over to pop music satisfactorily if like me you value musical values over lyrics to some extent (Eileen Farrell, Dorothy Kirstin) but neither lady should or did have a career on the musical comedy stage. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 04:29 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:27 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 07:04 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Re miking: By the mid-1940s (certainly by the late 1940s) most Broadway musicals had floor mikes and probably area mikes, too. Some of the more operatic musicals (and operettas and the actual operas performed on Broadway) didn't, but most shows had miking. Re Alfred Drake: Perhaps he did more opera than I know of. But at least from what I know, I wouldn’t say he had even a minor opera career. This is what I know of. In 1935, when he was 20, he sang for one summer with a small opera company performing on the Steel Pier in Atlantic City. His roles included Rocco in Fidelio, which is kind of funny for a 20-year-old. As far as I know, that Steel Pier season was it for him in terms of live performances of full operas, unless we count the Gilbert and Sullivan he did, which (at least as far I know) wasn’t much. Did Drake do more that I don’t know of? I heard him say in an interview some years back — I heard the interview long after it was originally broadcast — that he had aspired to a career in opera. In 1940, he auditioned for the Met via record. He sent the Met three recordings, which were of Mercutio's Queen Mab aria from Gounod's Roméo et Juliette, the duet for the Count and Susanna from Le Nozze di Figaro, and Tchaikovsky’s “None But the Lonely Heart.” Those are now available in the Stage Door set of Drake recordings. My memory is that in the radio interview he said that he eventually realized he would be relegated to comprimario roles because he didn’t have the kind of voice to sing leading roles. He said that he only wanted to do leading roles, he was not interested in being a supporting player, and his voice would allow him to sing leads in musicals but not in opera so he decided to do musicals. (Of course, he also had a career in nonmusicals.) When you write, "in my opinion he was second rate as an opera baritone (just not enough meat on the bones of the voice)," are you basing that on the three recordings I mentioned, along with the little Gilbert and Sullivan we have from him? I just ask because I’m wondering if you know of more opera recordings from him. In any case, he agreed with you. Drake’s brother, Arthur Kent, sang at the Met for several seasons in exactly the sort of roles that Drake probably would have sung had he pursued a career in opera. His best role there seems to have been Masetto, although he got a few other good supporting roles, such as Silvio in Pagliacci, along with a bunch of really minor ones. Dorothy Kirsten did perform in operettas onstage, including The New Moon at City Center in 1944. The production was miked. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:48 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 04:27 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| You ask if I know of more recordings, the answer is yes, he played several more when I was friends with him in the late 1960s. I heard Eri Tu from Ballo in Maschera, an excerpt from Aida, Act III and a Toreador Song that I remember. You are correct in calling me up on being loose about mics. You are correct that as early as the 40s there were floor and area mics but all they did was add a little volume and boost. The singers still had to project to the back of the orchestra and up to the balconies with only minor help. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:15 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 11:48 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
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| Oh, Snowysdad. It's just a little over three years ago that I replied to a post of yours here in which you told us about a Broadway acting credit of yours. In my reply, I went though some of the other Broadway acting credits that you had mentioned here over the years. And this is the end of this post because I may feel bad if I say any more. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:02 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 04:27 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| "By the mid-1940s (certainly by the late 1940s) most Broadway musicals had floor mikes and probably area mikes, too." That's what I thought, but someone recently posted somewhere that, according to the R&H organization, SOUTH PACIFIC was the first Broadway musical to use amplification of any kind. That didn't sound right to me -- and I guess it's not. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:55 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Michael_Portantiere 09:02 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| Yes, that's absolutely incorrect. We know that South Pacific was amplified (a letter was written to the Times complaining about the tinny sound), but it was very far from the first. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:37 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 07:04 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| While away for a period the perfect example came into my head, June Bronhill. From Australia she had a major career in London and her homeland in operetta mostly with forays either way into opera and musicals (the original Elizabeth Browning in Robert and Elizabeth). I am totally enamored with her voice and picked up a compilation set of live excerpts to better study her. There are quite a lot of opera performances (Gilda in Rigoletto, Mary in Maria Stuarda, Constanza in Abduction from the Seraglio). Never is she awful and I think listening I can glean that her acting in these roles was excellent, but she never convinces me that she is born to this facht, always more provincial than first tier. Once she is back on operetta turf she is extraordinary. Her Merry Widow, although in English stands up well to well seasoned European divas such as Schwarzkopf (never one of my favorite sopranos). The amplitude of the voice just belongs in operetta and musicals that call for operetta singing. Even though she was a coloratura, she sang The Mother Superior to Petula Clark's Maria as well as someone else in her homeland and did so with aplomb. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:52 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 11:37 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| At least on the cast recording with Petula Clark, she sings "Climb Ev'ry Mountain" in a higher key. I think it's up a step, and I think the high note is a B flat. I don't have it handy at the moment, and that particular performance doesn't seem to be on youtube, although at least one live TV performance of her singing it is there, when she was younger than when she played the Mother Abbess. My memory is that on the Clark cast recording she sounds impressive but at the end she sings something like this: "Ti yah fah yah ahhhhh!" There isn't even a hint of an e vowel at the end, it's just plain old "Ah!" |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:53 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 04:52 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| If it is up a step it is a C. Patricia Neway's climatic note was a B natural according to her (I read it somewhere, never met the lady). The recording is inconclusive the pitch not true on the CD transfer and of course LPs were notorious for requiring adjustment at the turntable. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:35 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 11:53 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
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| In the published vocal score, it is an A flat. And that, according to my musician friends (since I don't have an ear or the training to be sure), is what she sings on the cast recording. It is true that sometimes published vocal scores of Broadway musicals diverge from what was performed on opening night. Notable examples with rather major changes include Gypsy and Kiss Me, Kate (not even talking about something really obvious like "Better Than a Dream," added during the run, being in the Bells Are Ringing published score), but there is no reason to believe this is the case with The Sound of Music. And if the note was going to be changed for the recording, wouldn't it probably have been changed up, not down? Even if you're correct when you write, "The recording is inconclusive the pitch not true on the CD transfer and of course LPs were notorious for requiring adjustment at the turntable," the change is not going to be from a B to an A flat. And there have been several CD issues. It's possible that they're not exactly right, but, again, off by that much? I don't think that's likely. How do you know that the pitch is not true on one or more of the CD transfers? |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:03 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 09:35 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| "How do you know that the pitch is not true on one or more of the CD transfers?" I was wondering the same thing. This may be naive of me, but I've always assumed that major record companies are very careful about correct pitch in producing CD/digital transfers of older recordings from tape sources, including cast albums. Because of the nature of digital playback, if the pitch of a recording on CD is off, that would have to mean the speed of the tape machine that was used to play back the original master tapes in making the transfer would have had to be off, which I suppose is possible. I own hundreds of recordings on CD, and I think I've only come across two transfers that were notably off pitch: The first CD release of GOLDEN RAINBOW, which was also in mono (I believe that one was produced by Steve & Eydie themselves) and a transfer of the Victoria de los Angeles recording of the opera MANON that was, I believe, on the Testament label. (I very recently found a copy of the EMI release of that recording, and the pitch is fine there.) |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:23 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Michael_Portantiere 03:03 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| I've read that an early CD issue of the Callas-de Sabata Tosca was a bit fast and sharp. And the same company, EMI, issued a CD of the Klemperer's recording of the Mahler 2nd a bit fast and sharp, hoping no one would notice, because at the time CDs were limited to 80 minutes, and the performance is 80:15. So they sped it up slightly. Maybe at the time they were afraid of going over 79. (They first issued it on two CDs, and then on one, speeded up.) So it has happened, but like you I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that the problems with turntables generally being slightly off was pretty much not a problem with CDs. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:38 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 04:23 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| "I've read that an early CD issue of the Callas-de Sabata Tosca was a bit fast and sharp." Wow, one of the most famous opera recordings of all time. And that story about the Mahler is really interesting, thanks. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:21 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:20 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 07:04 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Youre right. My grumpy side was out strong this morning, and it was too much to lump together. We know how much the earliest days of musical theatre borrowed from operetta, not to mention Gilbert & Sullivan, etc. As for Mr. Terfel -- Aside from the acting, which I really was unconvinced by -- as is crucial for Sweeney -- his casting illustrates something else for me. When SWEENEY TODD or WEST SIDE STORY are sung by true opera stars, it exposes the limits of what the composers wove into the roles. It's like hearing a country tune for a fiddle played on a Stradivarius violin. When you hear a voice this big, with that much dexterity, it only makes me wish that the composer had written something harder and more expansive. It's like watching Olympic-level skaters skate an entire program with nothing but single axels. - GMB |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:33 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:20 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| WSS is problematic, very hard to produce a first class production. Casting requirements: Youth, star quality (for Tony, Maria and Anita), major singing ability, and even more dancing ability. It does not belong in an opera house which is going to sacrifice dancing and likely star quality. There are musicals that can go there but I'm definitely not convinced that WSS is one of them. Also duly noted about Gilbert and Sullivan. The D'Oyly Carte Opera company had its heyday in the 50s and 60s when they fielded opera quality casts. The round of London recordings from the company, first stereo ones show the company and Gilbert and Sullivan at their best. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:39 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 11:33 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Of course, there was one opera star-to-be in the original West Side Story - Reri Grist, who played Consuelo and sang "Somewhere." But she was just at the very beginning of her operatic career at the time. | |
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| What about Ballerinas doing Broadway dancing (and singing)? | |
| Posted by: stan 05:22 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I agree with Mr GrumpyMorningBoy. They're two different styles and voices. I think, however, that many Classical instrumentalists can do jazz and popular music well -- But, when I've seen amazing ballerinas on the stage in roles that were not written for Ballerina characters, I'm not cringing, but they're not Chita or Gwen either. | |
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| Great comparison. | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:23 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: What about Ballerinas doing Broadway dancing (and singing)? - stan 05:22 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| And that's why musical theatre dance is so different from ballet. Obviously nearly all Broadway dance stems from ballet, but if we don't believe that you're a character up there, you're in the wrong genre. - MB |
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| Not to be obvious, but.... | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 05:14 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| ...I think they are called "Opera Fans". And many are people who value purity of sound and musical dramatics over the qualities that many on this board would deem necessary for a credible stage performance. I think Opera has more in common with Dance in that although aesthetics and emotion are clearly still in play, they are both also rated and admired on technical purity above all else. The West Side Story travesty? Sold a ton of units and didn't hurt either leads careers. Bryn Terfel? Not only did people want him to sing Sweeney, but they staged THREE different productions for him to do it on record and they only stopped once he was well enough to show up. Sometimes, as mentioned below, it all comes together in someone who has technical chops and an acting talent -- Paulo Szot (have you seen the recent Mass???) and Renee Fleming both acquitted themselves just fine in recent productions -- and from the Dance world, the Fairchilds are both quite something. But as fans, I think theater fans are looking at a different order of essential criteria of excellence when seeing something on stage. |
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| if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:01 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Not to be obvious, but.... - Quicheo 05:14 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I could have said so, but I'm not quibbling with roles that nearly require operatic training, the way that Tony in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA or Johanna in SWEENEY do. And there are plenty more -- like Nellie in CAROUSEL or Mother Abbess in THE SOUND OF MUSIC -- where the acting requirements are so minimal that you really ought to just cast the most spectacular voice you can. I thought Paulo Szot was pretty darn terrific in the SOUTH PACIFIC revival. And it was lovely to hear that Renee Fleming could do in the last CAROUSEL. I still hold that most operatic voices don't properly serve most musical theater repertoire. And I'll say the inverse, as well. As much as I want to hear a musical theatre voice on a role like Sportin' Life, I will happily entertain anyone who wants to say that the PORGY & BESS adaptation for Broadway didn't properly serve Gershwin's composition. I'm sure that if any performing arts mailing list includes people who love opera as much as people who love theater, it's the mailing list of Lincoln Center. But hot damn, if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it. - GMB |
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| re: if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 11:06 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| "if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it" -- theater fan "if you can't sing a role, I don't care how well you act it" -- opera fan "it depends" -- the huge continuum between the extremes of the two above (And I fully agree that most musical theater roles are not written for Opera voices and vice versa. And yet, the occasional cross-over successes delight like a just as improbable lightening strike.) |
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| re: if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:45 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Maybe I haven't been as clear as I wished to be. Opera is not musicals and musicals are not Opera. Years ago the difference between voices trained for one or the other was not as great as it is now but it was always there. RCA released a 2 LP of selections from all of Lerner and Lowe's major successes. Stars were Robert Merrill, Jan Peerce and Jane Powell (sort of a popular voice but sort of operatic as well). Oy what a mess. Merrill and his brother in law Peerce had no business in this repertory. Not only could they have never acted the parts, they couldn't sing them with proper style. I once saw and reviewed a production of Into the Woods done by an opera company. Now ITW is probably Sondheim's least operatic score, its many vocal threads need mics to sort them out and keep them clear. I didn't even mention cast members by name because they were so completely miscast. Here you are absolutely correct, no one in his or her right mind would want to hear opera voices do that show, nor Company. | |
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| re: if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:16 am EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it - Snowysdad 11:45 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I think that Merrill and, to a lesser degree, Peerce do rather well for that kind of recording. It's not meant to be a cast recording, it's not meant to be theatrical. Even though Merrill was never considered much of an actor in opera, I think he had a better feel than most opera singers for American popular music. In fact, there are times when I'm really surprised at how well he lightens his approach on that recording. Unfortunately, he's also prone to some sloppiness, and extra takes might have been helpful on a couple of the songs he sings. His final consonants sometimes virtually disappear. Despite that, I am impressed with how well he does generally. If not for the awful chorus, his "They Call the Wind Maria" would rival the best. And on "The Heather on the Hill" in particular he also lightens his voice very well, not oversinging, letting the words come through with simplicity. Btw, Richard Tucker was Peerce's brother-in-law. |
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| re: if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 11:15 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: if you can't act a role, I don't care how well you sing it - Snowysdad 11:45 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Oy indeed. Thank you for your expertise and reportage in this thread. It seems to me that Into the Woods depends so much on the different styles in which each character sings that an operatic voice in each role would erase that essential distinction. And the fudging of casting verisimilitude common in opera would add another level of disaster. That said, clearly some opera companies have had good success with Sweeney Todd, Pacific Overtures, and A Little Night Music, all of which seem more closer cousins to opera rep than Company or Into the Woods are. |
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| re: Not to be obvious, but.... | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 07:40 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Not to be obvious, but.... - Quicheo 05:14 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Can't agree with you about Szot in MASS. His vocal take on it was interesting but to start with he is/was too old. I went in with an open mind but could not wrap myself around a middle aged celebrant, the emotional arc is so clearly from young/naive to older/wiser. MASS is one of my favorite works of all time, I am familiar with all the recordings. Alan Titus on the original is the best, Jubuliant Sykes my second favorite and the guy whose name won't come to me on Jaerve's recording is good. Jerry Hadley is a train wreck from start to finish, partly for the same reason to Szot flounders. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 01:12 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Well - MOST HAPPY FELLA was written for and sung by an opera singer, Robert Weede. Irra Pettina was an opera singer, and was quite terrific in CANDIDE. Ezio Pinza and Paulo Szot were both quite fine in South Pacific. Pinza also headlined the hit FANNY. Opera star Helen Traubel was one of the stars of Rodgers and Hammerstein's PIPE DREAM. Re these concert versions of musicals - they're CONCERT versions, with the NYPO. The point is to sing the music beautifully, less to create performances that work on Broadway. I thought that mezzo Stephanie Blythe was quite good in the NYPO CAROUSEL, and as far as Nathan Gunn goes - he's a terrific actor in opera - and having seen it live, thought it a much better performance than that of the Billy in the recent Broadway revival. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 07:49 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - NewtonUK 01:12 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I think Traubel in Pipe Dream illustrates when it goes wrong. The original cast album doesn't show off how fine the score really is, partly because of Traubel. Leslie Uggams is so much more appropriate on the Encores recording, bringing the whole show into better focus. | |
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| NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: BwyDan 02:09 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - NewtonUK 01:12 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| "and as far as Nathan Gunn goes - he's a terrific actor in opera - and having seen it live, thought it a much better performance than that of the Billy in the recent Broadway revival." NewtonUK, are you referring to Joshua Henry, who last played Billy on Bwy opposite Jessie Mueller? |
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| re: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 03:59 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - BwyDan 02:09 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| YEs - thanks - I briefly forgot Mr Henry's names. I had enjoyed him in other productions, but I thought his Billy was way below par in the Billy Bigelow sweepstakes. 'My Boy Bill' is a great 'aria' - even John Raitt, to be fair not much of an actor, could sell this song and act it. Mr. Henry, to me, missed all the acting cues in the song, and just made a great sound. If there is one thing a great opera singer knows how to do is how to make the words do the work. | |
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| re: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 04:04 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 04:01 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - NewtonUK 03:59 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Maybe John Raitt was a bit stiff in film in "The Pajama Game", but it was his first (and only) major film performance; it's possible he was much better acting on stage. He won a Donaldson Award, the predecessor ot the Tonys, for his performance in "Carousel". Plus, he did practically every male leading role in musicals in regionals and summer stock. That voice was glorious, and he wasn't half-bad looking either! |
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| re: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 04:49 am EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - PlayWiz 04:01 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I saw Raitt in Zorba, On A Clear Day, Music Man, Kismet and a self-directed 25th anniversary tour of Carousel. With a good strong director he was decent as an actor, but his self-directed Billy was embarrassing, esp. in the Soliloquy. He physically acted out everything possible - wrestle, dive, swim, sissy, etc., it was not pretty. But dear God, could that man sing! | |
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| re: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:53 am EDT 07/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - StageDoorJohnny 04:49 am EDT 07/31/20 | |
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| The reviews I've seen of him as Zorbá said things like, "The casting sounds ridiculous but he's surprisingly good in the role.." | |
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| re: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 06:48 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: NewtonUK, re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - PlayWiz 04:01 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I'm told that John Raitt himself used to make fun of his own acting ability. Apparently, he was the first to admit that he wasn't a great actor, and that his owed his career to his glorious singing voice. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:23 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - NewtonUK 01:12 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| "Re these concert versions of musicals - they're CONCERT versions, with the NYPO. The point is to sing the music beautifully, less to create performances that work on Broadway. I thought that mezzo Stephanie Blythe was quite good in the NYPO CAROUSEL, and as far as Nathan Gunn goes - he's a terrific actor in opera - and having seen it live, thought it a much better performance than that of the Billy in the recent Broadway revival." I completely agree. We can all think of examples where the casting of opera singers in musical theater roles did not work, but there are also many times when it does. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:47 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Michael_Portantiere 01:23 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I also agree, and let me just add: "there are no rules." --me |
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| I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 03:43 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Michael_Portantiere 01:23 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Nathan Gunn was not dynamic, but was at least sincere, and I also found him preferable to Joshua Henry in the last revival, who I didn't believe for a single minute. (I have liked Henry in several other things, including Scottsboro Boys and Violet, so I think it's less an issue with his performance in Carousel than with overall problems I had with that entire production.) That said, the best overall Billy I've ever seen is far and away Michael Hayden from the 1990s revival - and while his voice didn't bother me either in London or New York, I believe opinion was nearly universal that he gave a tremendous performance that wasn't especially well-sung at all. Which I guess proves the original poster's point. |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 04:05 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:57 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: I completely agree re: Billy - ShowGoer 03:43 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Opinion was not nearly universal about Haydn's performance. I knew quite a few people disappointed by the singing. He came off as a Jimmy Cagney wannabe who couldn't sing the role. I was more moved by Gordon MacRae's acting and singing in the film and perplexed how they could cast Haydn, who ended the first act's difficult "Soliloquoy" with a whimper instead of a bang. There were some beautiful aspects to that production, but I would rather have seen someone else as Billy. | |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:55 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: I completely agree re: Billy - ShowGoer 03:43 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| "That said, the best overall Billy I've ever seen is far and away Michael Hayden from the 1990s revival - and while his voice didn't bother me either in London or New York, I believe opinion was nearly universal that he gave a tremendous performance that wasn't especially well-sung at all. Which I guess proves the original poster's point." I know what you mean, but I would describe Billy Bigelow as a prime example of a musical theater role that really needs to be very well sung and ALSO very well acted. |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 07:53 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I completely agree re: Billy - Michael_Portantiere 03:55 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I'm going way back to my youth but my memory of Harve Presnell's Billy (Lincoln Center on tour) is that he was tremendous. | |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:34 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I completely agree re: Billy - Snowysdad 07:53 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I was unaware that Harve Presnell toured in that production, or that he ever played Billy Bigelow anywhere. Of course, it makes perfect sense. I would have LOVED to have seen him in that role. | |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:55 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I completely agree re: Billy - Michael_Portantiere 01:34 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| You made me wonder if my mind was playing tricks but no, I found the program from all those years ago. | |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 06:47 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I completely agree re: Billy - Michael_Portantiere 03:55 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| I'd like to add that the original choice for Billy in the film of CAROUSEL was Frank Sinatra....so deal with that as you will. I am not a musician or composer, but if I WAS, I'd want to hear my music song as well as it possibly could be. Leontyne Price's version of Rodgers and Hart's "Nobody's Heart" is sublime. | |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 07:55 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I completely agree re: Billy - Pokernight 06:47 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Yes it is as is her Right as the Rain, but both are songs that lend to her side of the divide. She chose her popular material very carefully and very well. | |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 06:51 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I completely agree re: Billy - Pokernight 06:47 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| ***Leontyne Price's version of Rodgers and Hart's "Nobody's Heart" is sublime.*** I absolutely LOVE that recording, and most of the rest of Price's "pop" album. |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: larry13 08:40 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I completely agree re: Billy - Michael_Portantiere 06:51 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Yes, superb album. Some recognition must go, however, to Andre Previn who was conductor/pianist/arranger. | |
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| re: I completely agree re: Billy | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:08 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I completely agree re: Billy - larry13 08:40 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| "Some recognition must go, however, to Andre Previn who was conductor/pianist/arranger." Yes, of course. Beautiful work from Previn. The only negative aspect of his participation is that, unfortunately, two tracks on the album were used for two very mediocre songs he himself wrote with his the wife, Dory, when they could have been used to have Price sing two more great classics. But, whatever, it's still a wonderful album. |
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