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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 07:04 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:00 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Too much to lump into one basket, sir. The musicals from an earlier era were conceived for legit voices who could sing without mics but not opera voices. The line between the two was thin in those days but it was there. Alfred Drake (Oklahoma, Kiss Me Kate, Kismet) also had a minor opera career although in my opinion he was second rate as an opera baritone (just not enough meat on the bones of the voice) for opera but one of the greats for musicals of the era. That era extends beyond but for sure includes The Most Happy Fella. I defy anyone who is not a robust opera baritone to satisfactorily encompass Tony, but the rest of the parts don't particularly require opera voices except maybe Marie. About late 60s everything got mic'd and I have to agree with you somewhat that opera voices are over ripe for these shows with the exception of Sweeny where Bryn Terfel tore through it like blazes, sorry if you don't agree. I totally agree that casting Billy Bigelow with an opera singer is a major mistake. If you think Nathan Gunn isn't perfect casting, listen to the recording with Barbara Cook as Julie and Samuel Ramey Billy. Talk about badly cast!!!!! The opera voices could cross over to pop music satisfactorily if like me you value musical values over lyrics to some extent (Eileen Farrell, Dorothy Kirstin) but neither lady should or did have a career on the musical comedy stage. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 04:29 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:27 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 07:04 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Re miking: By the mid-1940s (certainly by the late 1940s) most Broadway musicals had floor mikes and probably area mikes, too. Some of the more operatic musicals (and operettas and the actual operas performed on Broadway) didn't, but most shows had miking. Re Alfred Drake: Perhaps he did more opera than I know of. But at least from what I know, I wouldn’t say he had even a minor opera career. This is what I know of. In 1935, when he was 20, he sang for one summer with a small opera company performing on the Steel Pier in Atlantic City. His roles included Rocco in Fidelio, which is kind of funny for a 20-year-old. As far as I know, that Steel Pier season was it for him in terms of live performances of full operas, unless we count the Gilbert and Sullivan he did, which (at least as far I know) wasn’t much. Did Drake do more that I don’t know of? I heard him say in an interview some years back — I heard the interview long after it was originally broadcast — that he had aspired to a career in opera. In 1940, he auditioned for the Met via record. He sent the Met three recordings, which were of Mercutio's Queen Mab aria from Gounod's Roméo et Juliette, the duet for the Count and Susanna from Le Nozze di Figaro, and Tchaikovsky’s “None But the Lonely Heart.” Those are now available in the Stage Door set of Drake recordings. My memory is that in the radio interview he said that he eventually realized he would be relegated to comprimario roles because he didn’t have the kind of voice to sing leading roles. He said that he only wanted to do leading roles, he was not interested in being a supporting player, and his voice would allow him to sing leads in musicals but not in opera so he decided to do musicals. (Of course, he also had a career in nonmusicals.) When you write, "in my opinion he was second rate as an opera baritone (just not enough meat on the bones of the voice)," are you basing that on the three recordings I mentioned, along with the little Gilbert and Sullivan we have from him? I just ask because I’m wondering if you know of more opera recordings from him. In any case, he agreed with you. Drake’s brother, Arthur Kent, sang at the Met for several seasons in exactly the sort of roles that Drake probably would have sung had he pursued a career in opera. His best role there seems to have been Masetto, although he got a few other good supporting roles, such as Silvio in Pagliacci, along with a bunch of really minor ones. Dorothy Kirsten did perform in operettas onstage, including The New Moon at City Center in 1944. The production was miked. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:48 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 04:27 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| You ask if I know of more recordings, the answer is yes, he played several more when I was friends with him in the late 1960s. I heard Eri Tu from Ballo in Maschera, an excerpt from Aida, Act III and a Toreador Song that I remember. You are correct in calling me up on being loose about mics. You are correct that as early as the 40s there were floor and area mics but all they did was add a little volume and boost. The singers still had to project to the back of the orchestra and up to the balconies with only minor help. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:15 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 11:48 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
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| Oh, Snowysdad. It's just a little over three years ago that I replied to a post of yours here in which you told us about a Broadway acting credit of yours. In my reply, I went though some of the other Broadway acting credits that you had mentioned here over the years. And this is the end of this post because I may feel bad if I say any more. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:02 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 04:27 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| "By the mid-1940s (certainly by the late 1940s) most Broadway musicals had floor mikes and probably area mikes, too." That's what I thought, but someone recently posted somewhere that, according to the R&H organization, SOUTH PACIFIC was the first Broadway musical to use amplification of any kind. That didn't sound right to me -- and I guess it's not. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:55 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Michael_Portantiere 09:02 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| Yes, that's absolutely incorrect. We know that South Pacific was amplified (a letter was written to the Times complaining about the tinny sound), but it was very far from the first. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:37 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 07:04 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| While away for a period the perfect example came into my head, June Bronhill. From Australia she had a major career in London and her homeland in operetta mostly with forays either way into opera and musicals (the original Elizabeth Browning in Robert and Elizabeth). I am totally enamored with her voice and picked up a compilation set of live excerpts to better study her. There are quite a lot of opera performances (Gilda in Rigoletto, Mary in Maria Stuarda, Constanza in Abduction from the Seraglio). Never is she awful and I think listening I can glean that her acting in these roles was excellent, but she never convinces me that she is born to this facht, always more provincial than first tier. Once she is back on operetta turf she is extraordinary. Her Merry Widow, although in English stands up well to well seasoned European divas such as Schwarzkopf (never one of my favorite sopranos). The amplitude of the voice just belongs in operetta and musicals that call for operetta singing. Even though she was a coloratura, she sang The Mother Superior to Petula Clark's Maria as well as someone else in her homeland and did so with aplomb. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:52 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 11:37 am EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| At least on the cast recording with Petula Clark, she sings "Climb Ev'ry Mountain" in a higher key. I think it's up a step, and I think the high note is a B flat. I don't have it handy at the moment, and that particular performance doesn't seem to be on youtube, although at least one live TV performance of her singing it is there, when she was younger than when she played the Mother Abbess. My memory is that on the Clark cast recording she sounds impressive but at the end she sings something like this: "Ti yah fah yah ahhhhh!" There isn't even a hint of an e vowel at the end, it's just plain old "Ah!" |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:53 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 04:52 pm EDT 07/30/20 | |
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| If it is up a step it is a C. Patricia Neway's climatic note was a B natural according to her (I read it somewhere, never met the lady). The recording is inconclusive the pitch not true on the CD transfer and of course LPs were notorious for requiring adjustment at the turntable. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:35 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 11:53 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
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| In the published vocal score, it is an A flat. And that, according to my musician friends (since I don't have an ear or the training to be sure), is what she sings on the cast recording. It is true that sometimes published vocal scores of Broadway musicals diverge from what was performed on opening night. Notable examples with rather major changes include Gypsy and Kiss Me, Kate (not even talking about something really obvious like "Better Than a Dream," added during the run, being in the Bells Are Ringing published score), but there is no reason to believe this is the case with The Sound of Music. And if the note was going to be changed for the recording, wouldn't it probably have been changed up, not down? Even if you're correct when you write, "The recording is inconclusive the pitch not true on the CD transfer and of course LPs were notorious for requiring adjustment at the turntable," the change is not going to be from a B to an A flat. And there have been several CD issues. It's possible that they're not exactly right, but, again, off by that much? I don't think that's likely. How do you know that the pitch is not true on one or more of the CD transfers? |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:03 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 09:35 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| "How do you know that the pitch is not true on one or more of the CD transfers?" I was wondering the same thing. This may be naive of me, but I've always assumed that major record companies are very careful about correct pitch in producing CD/digital transfers of older recordings from tape sources, including cast albums. Because of the nature of digital playback, if the pitch of a recording on CD is off, that would have to mean the speed of the tape machine that was used to play back the original master tapes in making the transfer would have had to be off, which I suppose is possible. I own hundreds of recordings on CD, and I think I've only come across two transfers that were notably off pitch: The first CD release of GOLDEN RAINBOW, which was also in mono (I believe that one was produced by Steve & Eydie themselves) and a transfer of the Victoria de los Angeles recording of the opera MANON that was, I believe, on the Testament label. (I very recently found a copy of the EMI release of that recording, and the pitch is fine there.) |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:23 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Michael_Portantiere 03:03 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| I've read that an early CD issue of the Callas-de Sabata Tosca was a bit fast and sharp. And the same company, EMI, issued a CD of the Klemperer's recording of the Mahler 2nd a bit fast and sharp, hoping no one would notice, because at the time CDs were limited to 80 minutes, and the performance is 80:15. So they sped it up slightly. Maybe at the time they were afraid of going over 79. (They first issued it on two CDs, and then on one, speeded up.) So it has happened, but like you I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect) that the problems with turntables generally being slightly off was pretty much not a problem with CDs. | |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:38 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - AlanScott 04:23 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| "I've read that an early CD issue of the Callas-de Sabata Tosca was a bit fast and sharp." Wow, one of the most famous opera recordings of all time. And that story about the Mahler is really interesting, thanks. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:21 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 10:20 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 07:04 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Youre right. My grumpy side was out strong this morning, and it was too much to lump together. We know how much the earliest days of musical theatre borrowed from operetta, not to mention Gilbert & Sullivan, etc. As for Mr. Terfel -- Aside from the acting, which I really was unconvinced by -- as is crucial for Sweeney -- his casting illustrates something else for me. When SWEENEY TODD or WEST SIDE STORY are sung by true opera stars, it exposes the limits of what the composers wove into the roles. It's like hearing a country tune for a fiddle played on a Stradivarius violin. When you hear a voice this big, with that much dexterity, it only makes me wish that the composer had written something harder and more expansive. It's like watching Olympic-level skaters skate an entire program with nothing but single axels. - GMB |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:33 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - GrumpyMorningBoy 10:20 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| WSS is problematic, very hard to produce a first class production. Casting requirements: Youth, star quality (for Tony, Maria and Anita), major singing ability, and even more dancing ability. It does not belong in an opera house which is going to sacrifice dancing and likely star quality. There are musicals that can go there but I'm definitely not convinced that WSS is one of them. Also duly noted about Gilbert and Sullivan. The D'Oyly Carte Opera company had its heyday in the 50s and 60s when they fielded opera quality casts. The round of London recordings from the company, first stereo ones show the company and Gilbert and Sullivan at their best. |
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| re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:39 pm EDT 08/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: I'm confused. Does anyone actually WANT to see opera stars perform musicals? - Snowysdad 11:33 pm EDT 07/29/20 | |
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| Of course, there was one opera star-to-be in the original West Side Story - Reri Grist, who played Consuelo and sang "Somewhere." But she was just at the very beginning of her operatic career at the time. | |
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