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| re: Just curious. | |
| Last Edit: NewtonUK 10:04 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 10:03 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: Just curious. - TheOtherOne 08:47 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| Well, his speech, and song, are JEwish in tone and rhythm - Sue me, sue me, what you can do me. And nu is Yiddish. And back in Runyon land you didnt speak Yiddish if you werent Jewish - believe me! A- right, already; I’m just a no-goodnik/ A -right, already; it’s true. So, nu? Again Jewish slang. So - no they don't say the character is Jewish. But if you did a play and a character said 'in the name of the father, the son, ...' it would be fair to assume the character was a Catholic, whether there was a note to that effect or not. We saw what happened in the Alfred Molina revival of FIDDLER when you try to play a truly Jewish character, ignmoring that they are Jewish. Not great. You don't have to be Jewish to play Nathan or Tevye. But you have to act Jewish. Otherwise why bother? |
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| re: Just curious. | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 10:58 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Just curious. - NewtonUK 10:03 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| I can’t say I agree with you as to the relevance of his being Jewish. “So new?” strikes me as street slang for “and this surprises you?”, so I would not equate Nathan with Tevye, Fanny or Tateh, to name a few. (I liked Molina’s Tevye all the same.) |
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| Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 02:35 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:31 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Just curious. - TheOtherOne 10:58 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| As noted by others, it's "So nu?" (spelled that way in the script and score) and not "So new?" Nu is Yiddish. “I’m just a no-good-nik” is Jewish-speak. As to whether Nathan Detroit is Jewish. I think a few things are relevant. First, Guys and Dolls is almost an original musical. It uses the Runyon world — Runyonland — but the two main plot threads are basically invented. The Sarah-Sky plot is greatly different from the story told in "The Idyll of Miss Sarah Brown," and all the rest is basically new. A couple of plot ideas may be inspired by things in a couple of Runyon stories — specifically, "Pick the Winner" and "Blood Pressure" — but to the extent they are used, they are transformed. There is no Adelaide in Runyon. It's been said that the Adelaide-Nathan subplot (and, of course, Nathan is a character in Runyon stories) comes from "Pick the Winner," about Cutie Singleton, who's been engaged for a very long time, but the only connection between "Pick the Winner" and the Adelaide-Nathan story is that Cutie has been engaged to a guy called Hot Horse Herbie for a very long time. (Vivian Blaine later played Cutie Singleton in a TV version of "Pick the Winner.") As for the Jewishness, I will quote a couple of sections from an Adam Gropnik New Yorker piece on Runyon that I’m also linking. “There are two layers of idiom-making laid one on top of the other in Runyon’s writing, a technique that accounts both for its complexity and for its comic, slightly out-of-focus nature—for its mixture of authenticity and unreality. As far as one can tell, Jewish crooks of the period really did speak a surprisingly elaborate and cautious diction. They didn’t speak like Runyon characters, but they tried to speak high for the same reason that they polished their shoes and tipped their hats and dressed in suits: fancy was classy. This tendency still shows in Sinatra’s recorded speech, which, when made for public consumption, is extremely ‘high,’ a Hoboken boy’s idea of a class act.” And later in the piece: “The other oddity in Runyon’s stories is how startlingly they reverse the normal ethnic roles in American writing. The Bellow generation has made us accustomed to ironically distanced Jewish narrators of violent or extreme events. But with Runyon the controlling sensibility is that of the Gentile author expressing his wonder (albeit through the puppet voice of the hamische narrator) at the violent antics of the Jews.” The world Runyon wrote about was an essentially Jewish world. Not every character in Runyon is Jewish, and I don’t think it’s ever made explicit, but it’s Jewish. Everyone hangs out in Mindy’s, which of course is Lindy’s, a Jewish deli, eating gefilte fish and cheesecake. You wrote this, “Sam Levene was Jewish and brought his ethnicity to the role to great effect, but I'm not so sure this is essential to the character.” Sam Levene was succeeded on Broadway by Julie Oshins, who was Jewish. Oshins had been playing it on the national tour. When he left to take over on Broadway, he was replaced by Sam Schwartz, who I would guess was Jewish. Levene’s original understudy was Paul Reed, who also played Brannigan. Reed was born Sidney Kahn. When Sam Levene left the London production, he was replaced by Sidney James, born Solomon Joel Cohen. In 1955, City Center did its first revival of Guys and Dolls. Nathan was played by Walter Matthau, who wasn’t Jewish but often played Jewish. When the production played a return engagement a month after closing, John Randolph, who was Jewish, played Nathan. In 1965, City Center did the show again. Alan King (Jewish) was Nathan. In 1966, they brought it back as part of a Frank Loesser festival. Jan Murray (Jewish) was Nathan. The list of Jewish actors who played the role in stock and in major houses around the country during the next few decades would include Phil Foster, Shelley Berman, Joseph Leon, Joey Adams, Milton Berle, Jack Carter, Lewis J. Stadlen, and Henry Goodman. Obviously, that proves nothing. There are lots of Jewish actors. But the fact that no one but Jewish actors played the role on any kind of continuing basis during the original Broadway, national tour and London runs suggests that the writers and the original creative team saw the character as Jewish. Clearly, you don’t have to be Jewish to play the role successfully. Look at Nathan Lane (although I felt he lacked the essential Yiddishkeit in a production I thought overrated). But maybe it helps a little? So nu? |
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| I so agree... | |
| Posted by: IvyLeagueDropout 02:38 am EDT 08/03/20 | |
| In reply to: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) - AlanScott 02:31 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| ...about the '92 revival! Not particularly about its Jewishness (I was probably too young and Midwestern to think about that back then), but I thought the show was vastly inferior to the several regional/community productions I had seen by that point, or the high school production in which I was the definitive Rusty Charlie.😁 The reason I didn't love it was that while the world of Runyon is populated by larger than life characters that can border on cartoonish, there is an earthiness to the characters. I didn't think anyone in the Lane revival seemed anything besides cartoony. Which makes the audience not really care about the characters. I'm a fan of everyone involved in that production, but I thought then (and still think when I listen to that recording or watch clips online) that it was much less than the sum of it's parts. | |
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| re: I so agree... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:03 pm EDT 08/03/20 | |
| In reply to: I so agree... - IvyLeagueDropout 02:38 am EDT 08/03/20 | |
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| "The reason I didn't love it was that while the world of Runyon is populated by larger than life characters that can border on cartoonish, there is an earthiness to the characters. I didn't think anyone in the Lane revival seemed anything besides cartoony. Which makes the audience not really care about the characters." I know what you mean, and I would say that's probably largely due to the style of Jerry Zaks' direction in general, and of that show in particular. I also think that, despite whatever its flaws may be, the movie version of GUYS AND DOLLS in that all, or almost all, of the actors create vivid characters without cartoonish exaggeration, including Stubby Kaye, Johnny Silver, Sheldon Leonard, et al. I would say there's even a lot of subtlety in the performance of B.S. Pully, who plays Big Jule. |
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| My Jewish two cents, and a correction | |
| Posted by: fredfrankg (fredfrankg427@gmail.com) 05:43 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) - AlanScott 02:31 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| True, Nathan doesn't have to be played by a Jewish actor. However, Matthau was Jewish, as were so many actors who played Nathan. Also, "So, nu?" isn't the only (funny) example of Jewish syntax in G&D. One of Nathan's great lines when challenged by Big Jule and has to pick up a nickel is, "For this, I have to bend over!" Stay safe and well. x |
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| re: My Jewish two cents, and a correction | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:45 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: My Jewish two cents, and a correction - fredfrankg 05:43 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| Thank you for the correction. I had always thought that Matthau was Jewish, and then somewhere at some point I somehow became under the wrong impression that he wasn't. It's a relief to know that he was. :) | |
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| re: My Jewish two cents, and a correction | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 07:16 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: My Jewish two cents, and a correction - fredfrankg 05:43 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| "True, Nathan doesn't have to be played by a Jewish actor. However, Matthau was Jewish, as were so many actors who played Nathan." I was shocked to read in Alan's post that Matthau was not Jewish. Thank you for clearing this up. And thank you for your dramaturgy (not quite sure if that's the right word, but I suspect you'd be among the best of dramaturgs), Alan. |
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| re: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 03:41 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) - AlanScott 02:31 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| I love this post. It’s a brilliant post. I also happen to love the idea that many times there is something important about matching the correct actor to the correct role and it may habe to do with ethnicity or race or heritage. Although it’s not always imperative (there have been controversies, as with Jonathan Pryce playing someone who was part Asian in MISS SAIGON, and the contrary, prevalent tendency to cast African-Americans in African-American roles), it’s nice to see such a wise essay. Anne Bancroft famously played Gittel Mosca onstage so you’d have never known she was Italian not Jewish. But perhaps Shirley MacLaine’s work in the film version (of TWO FOR THE SEESAW) was off-balance for just such an issue of heritage. I think Jewish-American is important. I think Irish-American is important. And Casting is a very tricky business. |
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| re: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:48 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) - AlanScott 02:31 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| Thank you for that wonderful post, Alan. I've always felt that Nathan is clearly supposed to be a Jewish character, even if I knew only a small fraction of the supporting evidence you gave. I also wondered if maybe some of the characters in Nathan Detroit's world might be Italian, though I think it's pretty clear from his name that Big Jule is supposed to be Jewish :-) On that note, I find it interesting that Adam Gropnik chose the Sinatra, an Italian, as his example of someone who tended to "speak high" when he spoke for public consumption, though I'm not sure I can offhand think of a famous Jewish performer who might also fit the category. Maybe Alan King? |
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| re: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 05:29 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) - Michael_Portantiere 02:48 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| Terrific post, Alan, thank you! There was never any doubt in my mind that Nathan (and a good many other characters) were Jewish. As for “nu”—my late mother in law could use it, depending on context and her inflection, in a dozen different ways, from utterly sarcastic to fatalism to asking for further details. A versatile term! Laura |
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| re: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:30 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) - showtunetrivia 05:29 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| As for “nu”—my late mother in law could use it, depending on context and her inflection, in a dozen different ways, from utterly sarcastic to fatalism to asking for further details. A versatile term! Yes - in real usage, it's close to untranslatable. It's almost more of a vocal attitude instead of a word, if that makes sense. |
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| re: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 07:33 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Runyon's Jewish world (one of my very long posts) - Chromolume 07:30 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| It is kind equivalent to "yeah," which in English can indicate agreement, disbelief, need for more info, dismissal, or enthusiasm. | |
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| re: Just curious. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:21 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Just curious. - TheOtherOne 10:58 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| It seems like what you are doing is hearing an expression in a foreign language and intuiting what you think it might mean in context. Moreover, you seem to be translating "nu" as "new" even though a quick google check will reveal that it is something else. I understand how one might not connect the dots to Jewish automatically, but at this point I think it is pretty clear that Nathan is just as Jewish as Tevye. | |
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| re: Just curious. | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 12:33 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:32 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Just curious. - ryhog 12:21 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| This reminds me a little of a college friend who used to say "mercy buckets" without having ANY idea it was a deliberate mispronunciation of the French "merci beaucoups." (I remember asking "shouldn't that be buckups?" and he didn't understand what I meant.) It's also fun when someone who doesn't know yiddish says stuff like "schmuck" or "putz" and has no idea what the words really mean...;-) |
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| re: Just curious. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:46 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Just curious. - Chromolume 12:32 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| this is probably not allowed but I will post it and suggest it is for educational purposes :-) | |
| Link | yiddish lesson? |
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| re: Just curious. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:00 pm EDT 08/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Just curious. - TheOtherOne 10:58 am EDT 08/02/20 | |
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| I can’t say I agree with you as to the relevance of his being Jewish. “So new?” strikes me as street slang for “and this surprises you?”, so I would not equate Nathan with Tevye, Fanny or Tateh, to name a few. Honestly, I can't really anyone ever saying something like "so nu" (btw, authentically pronounced "zo" not "so") unless they know their yiddish - and that's mainly going to be someone Jewish. I've never heard the English phrase "so new" as a street slang kind of colloquialism outside of that. Your mileage may differ, but... |
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