Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: joerialto 04:15 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
| In reply to: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - WaymanWong 02:31 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
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| ‘White boy’? | |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:22 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - joerialto 04:15 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
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| Would your prefer white man? Or white person? Good for Odom to get that white people money. |
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| Fighting for pay equity is nothing to be ashamed of! | |
| Posted by: portenopete 02:43 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - Singapore/Fling 04:22 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
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| But needlessly denigrating a colleague is. Whether or not their situations were at all parallel, Messrs. Odom and Tveit are brothers in the theatre. Name-calling is below the belt. Leslie Odom, Jr. is an incredibly gifted performer who is possessed of an incredibly big ego. I say this from listening to him on many a talk show discussing his career. No doubt his confidence and swagger add to his appeal onstage and this conundrum has been a dilemma in Hollywood and Broadway for years: in the past performers strove to "appear" humble and self-effacing in public. It's fine to say we should "own" our swagger, but it makes for tiresome dinner party companionship and equally irritating talk show etiquette. And if any white actor's salary might have been germane in this discussion, surely it's Jonathan Groff's? He was in the position of having to re-learn his track- admittedly much simpler than Odom's Burr track- and he has a much higher TVQ, I would think, than Aaron Tveit, having starred in at least one or two series since his Broadway career bloomed. Say what you want to your agent or your wife or your friends around the table at Joe Allen's, but when you're talking a public forum, be nice. You're brilliant onstage and next time I see you in something I don't want to be fighting the nagging suspicion you are a douche. |
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| re: Fighting for pay equity is nothing to be ashamed of! | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:20 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: Fighting for pay equity is nothing to be ashamed of! - portenopete 02:43 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| How in the world is Odom denigrating his colleague? He indicated that he wanted to be paid equal to Tveit, and he referred to him as a "white boy" in a jocular manner, none of which is denigrating or attacking him. Again, I'm just baffled that so many white people (I'm presuming) are taking great offense (and clutching their pearls, lol) at this innocuous comment. | |
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| re: Fighting for pay equity is nothing to be ashamed of! | |
| Posted by: CanadianRyan 02:49 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: Fighting for pay equity is nothing to be ashamed of! - portenopete 02:43 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| Do you have to fight the same issue when you watch Patti LuPone? Or Zero Mostel? Or any of the other countless white “divas” in the theatre? I think he was using Tveit as an example. Calling him that white boy is not “name calling”... again, I wonder if Tveit gives as much thought to this as you seem to. I doubt it even matters to him. |
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| re: Fighting for pay equity is nothing to be ashamed of! | |
| Posted by: portenopete 03:25 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Fighting for pay equity is nothing to be ashamed of! - CanadianRyan 02:49 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| Mostel was fortunate to live and work in an era where one's backstage shenanigans were not publicised. Much like JFK, FDR, Mother Teresa, Dr. King and many other totems, I am glad to not have been made aware of their less-savoury personal quirks. As to Miss LuPone, with every utterance she makes I find myself having to deal with a parallel entity that obscures the artist. Generationally I am from the era where not knowing things was blissful. I could just enjoy the gifts and gain great pleasure and comfort. Most great artists are, I suspect, assholes. I am sure the solipsism and ego it takes to burn as incandescently as they do requires selfishness. I am sure there are some exceptions, but on the whole, I'd bet that if they didn't have the insane and appalling traits that now get them in trouble, they would be able to create great art. (Lin-Manuel Miranda may be an exception of note.) I just wish their failings were not so ubiquitous and publicised. |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: joerialto 09:57 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - Singapore/Fling 04:22 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
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| I doubt that Odom would appreciate being called ‘black boy’ | |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:32 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - joerialto 09:57 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
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| He likely wouldn't, but the situations aren't comparable. As long as we live in a society with entrenched systemic racism, we have to recognize that the way that white people are able to use certain words regarding race is different from the ways that BIPOC are able to use certain words. | |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Last Edit: writerkev 01:13 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| Posted by: writerkev 01:13 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - Singapore/Fling 12:32 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| You're bending over backwards to justify and excuse Odom's terribly rude (at best) reference to his peer as "that white boy." That's as repugnant as anything else. | |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 02:14 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:13 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - writerkev 01:13 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| No. I'm acknowledging that we live in a country and participate in an entertainment industry that is dominated by white people, which has historically oppressed Black people, and which continues to pay them, on average, less than white people. And I'm acknowledging that as a result of this system, white people have to respect that we can't ask to be regarded as equals by our BIPOC colleagues while continuing to benefit from our privilege. I find it repugnant how quickly (presumably white) people on this thread are to deny even the possibility that there may be racial disparities in pay, even though these have been consistently reported in the media, and even though we are in the midst of a national crisis about the undervaluing of Black life. I agree that there are many factors aside from race that can contribute to Tveit's paycheck versus the original offer to Odom - and that choosing "Grease Live" is a rather arbitrary benchmark - but I'm shocked, shocked, shocked at how quickly people are to take offense and loudly condemn a Black man for an innocuous statement that reflects hundreds of years of oppression against him and his people. |
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| Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. | |
| Posted by: portenopete 02:57 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - Singapore/Fling 02:13 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| "but I'm shocked, shocked, shocked at how quickly people are to take offense" I wish I could believe this was satire, but I suspect not. Calling somebody "white boy" is not an innocuous statement. It is a provocative statement, made with the expectation and surety that Odom's race will protect him from repercussions. If it were said jocularly around the table at dinner among friends, it would not be news. It's his purview to create his own narrative in private. But in speaking to a third party reporter, he should have been more cognisant of the ripple effects of what he was saying. He's a smart man. And of course, I'd bet Aaron Tveit can do nothing but smile and mutter "Sorry". Fighting for systemic structural change in the theatre- and in all arenas of life- is important, necessary work. Just as Michelle Williams did not call Mark Wahlberg names when the pay discrepancy on the Getty movie reshoot came to light; she and her agents went after the producers. And she won the support and admiration of the public at the same time. And without her having to do anything, Mark Wahlberg came out of it like a heel, even though he appeared to have been an unwitting participant in the affair. |
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| re: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. | |
| Last Edit: TheOtherOne 08:08 am EDT 08/09/20 | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 08:05 am EDT 08/09/20 | |
| In reply to: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. - portenopete 02:57 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| portenopote, Mark Wahlberg and Michelle Williams were working on the same project, under the same circumstances. Aaron Tveit and Leslie Odom, Jr were not. Odom should not have compared himself to Tveit here. No actor has been paid for a broadcast in theaters (which was the original intention) or a cable presentation (which was the Covid-fueled result) what he or she would have been paid to do had their project been aired (and aired live at that) on network television. Not to mention that he apparently held Lin Manuel and the rest of the company in limbo before he committed to joining them for the taping. This isn't a case of pearl clutching on the part of people calling him out for it, and it isn't a case of him being victimized because of race. It's a case of an actor's ego getting out of hand. I love Leslie, but his "white boy" comment cast an ugly shadow on an argument that was already way off base. |
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| re: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:19 pm EDT 08/09/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. - TheOtherOne 08:05 am EDT 08/09/20 | |
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| "It's a case of an actor's ego getting out of hand." But is it? In baseball, we refer to franchise players who negotiate sky high salaries because they can. LOJ is Hamilton's franchise player. Did you think LMM's ego was out of hand when he negotiated his top dollar deal with Jeffrey Seller (including paying his father a percentage)? Did you think Jeffrey Seller's ego was out of hand when he raised ticket prices to thousand dollar territory? Or is it just the black actor who is the star of your show who is supposed to resist negotiating the best deal he can get? Ya know, LOJ had an understudy. The producers could have said thanks anyway. But they didn't because they knew he was worth it. Hamilton is to Broadway what the Yankees are to baseball. Wanna play without Gerrit Cole? Just say no. Wanna memorialize your play without the star? Just say no. Do you think Hugh Jackman was uppity for cutting his deal with Rudin for MM? Whether we like it or not, we live in a capitalist country, and that doesn't apply differently based on race (or sex or any other category that we "traditionally" paid less). Offer and acceptance, bid and ask, quid pro quo. |
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| re: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. | |
| Last Edit: TheOtherOne 04:47 pm EDT 08/09/20 | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 04:31 pm EDT 08/09/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. - ryhog 02:19 pm EDT 08/09/20 | |
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| Yes, we live in a capitalist society, but HAMILTON did not stop selling out because Leslie Odom Jr left its cast. It was still sold out nearly four years later when Covid-19 shut down Broadway. THE BOY FROM OZ and any other show Hugh Jackman has been in would have closed had he left. That is why he gets those big bucks. The Yankees did not stop selling out games when Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera retired, or, years earlier, when Mickey Mantle did. People go to see the Yankees. And they go to see HAMILTON. Leslie Odom is not that kind of a star. He hasn't been on Broadway or carried a film since, so it is hard to say what type of audience pull he will have, but neither Phillipa Soo nor Okierette Onaodowan made a case for the Hamiton pull when they returned to Broadway. Please don't think I would not love to see all of them back! But he was not that kind of star at the time. Ironically, he might be a bit closer to being one because his outstanding performance has now been seen by so many, but he was pushing it when he kept his company waiting to see if he would join them for the recording. And no, this one is not about race, though the Aaron Tveit comparison makes it plain that Odom thought it was. I would expect Jeremy Pope to negotiate a lot more money now if anyone wanted to film him in AIN'T TOO PROUD, but Jeremy followed up two huge personal successes in one season on Broadway with an arguably more successful debut in a popular miniseries. His agent would be crazy not to ask for more. True, his shows went on successfully without him, too, but his rise to stardom was meteoric and not restricted to one show. |
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| re: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:51 pm EDT 08/09/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. - TheOtherOne 04:31 pm EDT 08/09/20 | |
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| I'll accept the fact that my analogies were not great but the point is that it was a negotiation and there was nothing stopping the producers from deciding not to agree to his terms. None of your opinions overcome the fact that they wanted him and were willing to pay him his price. I have a friend who is a fashion designer. As a young man, he was bombarded by people telling him to sell to them at a lower price point. He steadfastly refused because he had confidence in the value of his product. You can probably guess what happened: he eventually became a name that you may know. Chefs do the same thing. Creative people do not have to sell themselves short, unless that is their choice. Finally, you say it is not about race but let me just say that your pronouncement on that subject runs counter to the avalanche of voices we have heard in the last weeks and months from persons of color that is is ALWAYS about race. Jeremy Pope does not prove otherwise, and I doubt he would agree with you. |
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| re: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:16 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: Your pearls are sufficiently clutched and your pique noted. - portenopete 02:57 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| Not satire, and not pearls clutched. If anything, I was trying to write in a polite way that masked how appalled I am by the tenor of this conversation. A bunch of white folks up in arms because a Black man said a word they don't agree with, in a jocular conversation, to point out how hard he had to fight to be paid his worth by a Broadway system that didn't even bother to confirm that he was signed up for the movie they were making, on the back of his Tony-winning labor, which was poised to make millions of dollars at the box office, and wound up being sold for a cool $75M to Disney. The nerve! |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: CanadianRyan 02:36 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - Singapore/Fling 02:13 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| Repugnant is... a strong word at minimum. Does anyone know if Tveit and Odom know each other? Are they friendly? I am white and I have friends who are BIPOC who refer to me as “white boy”. My best friends in high school made me a photo album that was titled “where’s whitey?” In the style of “where’s Waldo?” I doubt very very much Tveit is as bothered by this as many of you seem to be. But I would assume Tveit has a much better grasp of white privilege than some of the posters on this site seem to. |
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| You're likely right about Tveit being less up in arms than we are LOL..... | |
| Posted by: portenopete 03:13 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - CanadianRyan 02:36 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| Your point is well taken: if they are indeed friends, then being called "white boy" might be seen in a different light. But similarly, if a white actor had said something like calling a black friend "my boy" in an interview, it's unlikely that it would have gone unnoticed and unchallenged. As to your own personal history.... I find the enforced identification that you as the one white guy in a group endured as odious as if it had been the other way round. I'm glad you seem happy to laugh it off and I know that the systemic subjugation of millions of Africans over three hundred years and the concomitant cruelty rained down on them over generations is WAAAAAAAAAY worse and not "the same thing", I still think that being made to feel like an "other" because of your race is wrong period, no matter which group can claim the most persecution over the millennia. Women,Jews, Gays, Blacks, Japanese, Vietnamese, Laotian, Old, Huguenot, Trans, Fat, Ginger, Stutterers, Roma, Indigenous, Poor, Disabled: I fall into a number of these categories but have zero interest in dwelling on my status as being the "least" privileged person in the room. Let's fight at the governmental and societal levels for equal voting, for representation in government, for inclusion in decision-making bodies, in a multiplicity of stories being told. And let's stop hurling accusations of fragility and "Karen-ness" at each other in an attempt at allyship. Leslie Odom, Jr. doesn't need my help in fighting for his case: his blazing talent should be all that anyone cares about. |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: joerialto 01:01 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - Singapore/Fling 12:32 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| Racism is a two way street. | |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:22 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - joerialto 01:01 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| First of all, no it is not. Second, when a white person calls a black man "boy" it conjures up centuries of oppression. When a black person calls a white man "boy" it mocks that racism, something very in keeping with the effort (to which you seem oblivious) to rectify a hideous history. On the merits, LOJ is entitled to negotiate for whatever he wants and the producer is entitled to accept or reject his proposal. Just as with a sports figure who is a free agent. The Tony winner can price himself just as Hamilton on Broadway can price its premium tickets. He has something they want and that may well be viewed by some as the sine qua non of the show. |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: joerialto 01:57 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - ryhog 01:22 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| So it’s okay to be racist to rectify history? | |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:08 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - joerialto 01:57 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| It's not ok to call it racist, because (as I said) it isn't. rac·ist /ˈrāsəst/ adjective showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another. Whites are not a minority or marginalized group. FWIW, based on the little bit I know the "victim" you are worried about, I feel confident he would (or has) laughed at being called this horrible thing. |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: portenopete 03:16 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - ryhog 02:08 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| rac·ist /ˈrāsəst/ adjective showing or feeling discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or believing that a particular race is superior to another. Did you leave out the "minority" or "marginalised" bits? And yes, you're probably right that Aaron Tveit might have laughed it off. (If anything, it will increase the perception of what he's worth going forward.) |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: ryhog 03:33 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - portenopete 03:16 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| "Did you leave out the "minority" or "marginalised" bits?" No, they were not in the definition of "racist" that I quoted, though they are in the definition of "racism" (as "typical"). I think the distinction is that the latter can have a broader meaning (albeit atypically) but the former cannot. Meanwhile, I really wish we were not all so marginalized from the theatre. :-( |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: portenopete 04:07 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - ryhog 03:33 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| As Albert Brooks said in Broadcast News, you buried the lead. Too true, ryhog. The reason we're all on this site is because we love the theatre and we're pissed off that we can't see/do/experience it. We'll be back..... |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: joerialto 02:11 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - ryhog 02:08 pm EDT 08/07/20 | |
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| So glad you straightened me out! | |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Posted by: larry13 04:36 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - Singapore/Fling 04:22 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
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| Who would NOT prefer "white man" rather than "white boy?" | |
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| re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie | |
| Last Edit: Quicheo 04:48 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 04:45 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Why Leslie Odom Jr. nearly didn't do the 'Hamilton' movie - larry13 04:36 pm EDT 08/06/20 | |
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| Likely, Aaron Tveit, as he was playing a just-turned-18-year-old white boy and working hard NOT to appear as a fully adult man. ;) And seriously, is there an actor working in musical theater today who is trading more on his boy-ishness than Tveit (and that's not shade to him at all)? Maybe Gavin Creel? Maybe Ben Platt? |
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