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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 05:25 pm EDT 08/08/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - Chromolume 02:13 pm EDT 08/08/20 | |
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| ***Just my opinion, but I think that ultimately you're seeing the song so incredibly literally, and I'm not sure it was meant to be taken that way. This is still a "musical comedy," (meant in the "most glorious words" kind of way) even with darker elements, and I think if this were meant to be a much more serious song, we'd hear that tone in the music (which is very playful) let alone the lyrics.*** I completely understand your point, and of course I agree that the lyrics of the songs were not meant to be taken seriously. But on a related note, I've always felt that the lighter and darker elements of CAMELOT are very poorly blended, as compared to many other musicals that have both. I think that's a large part of my problem with "Take Me to the Fair." Very shortly after Guenevere and the knights joke about severely injuring or killing Lancelot, one of the knights himself is killed -- but then, the show doesn't even stay consistently dark after that, it occasionally goes back to light humor and whimsy, as in the Morgan le Fey scene (although that's almost always cut nowadays). ***Even in Sweeney Todd, isn't the JOY and FUN of "A Little Priest" that neither of them are really thinking of the consequences of what they're proposing? Food for thought, lol?*** I never quite thought of it that way, and I don't agree that they're "not thinking of the consequences of what they're proposing" -- especially since they ACTUALLY START DOING IT very soon thereafter. I think the joy and fun of that song is that somehow, brilliantly, Sondheim (and the performers) are making us laugh fully and unreservedly along with a song about how the two characters are going to take dead bodies of people and grind them up into meat pies. But also, I think an audience's feelings about Sweeney and Mrs. Lovett are meant to be very different from their feelings about Guenevere. |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 07:05 pm EDT 08/08/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:04 pm EDT 08/08/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - Michael_Portantiere 05:25 pm EDT 08/08/20 | |
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| I don't agree that they're "not thinking of the consequences of what they're proposing" -- especially since they ACTUALLY START DOING IT very soon thereafter. That's the action, not the consequences. I don't think it *really* dawns on Mrs. Lovett what they're really getting away with until it's clear that Toby has figured it out. (Obviously she knows, but she isn't really taking it seriously until then,) And of course Todd doesn't get his "epiphany" (so to speak) until he finds his wife dead, and it's too late to revive her. And of course, that Lovett was hiding Lucy's identity from him. For Todd, especially, the consequences aren't that people will die, it's that someone he loves will die. |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:54 am EDT 08/10/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - Chromolume 07:04 pm EDT 08/08/20 | |
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| ***That's the action, not the consequences. I don't think it *really* dawns on Mrs. Lovett what they're really getting away with until it's clear that Toby has figured it out. (Obviously she knows, but she isn't really taking it seriously until then,) And of course Todd doesn't get his "epiphany" (so to speak) until he finds his wife dead, and it's too late to revive her. And of course, that Lovett was hiding Lucy's identity from him. For Todd, especially, the consequences aren't that people will die, it's that someone he loves will die.*** I agree with most of that, but I was addressing the audience's reaction to Todd and Mrs. Lovett, and to "A Little Priest" in particular, not the characters' own awareness of the full meaning and possible consequences of their actions. By the way, it strikes me that one of the reasons why the audience is able to laugh along with Sweeney and Mrs. L.'s plan to take the bodies of the people he's going to kill and grind them into meat pies is because, at that point, the only person we have seen Todd kill is Pirelli, who has been revealed as a despicable con artist and who then tries to blackmail Todd. And then, for most of Act II, the only people we see die are nameless characters who have no lines and with whom the audience has established no relationship -- until, of course, he murders the judge, who is the primary villain of the piece. And THEN, of course, he kills one more person after that, and tries to kill another.... P.S. I would say Todd has two epiphanies, perhaps. The first comes during the song titled "Epiphany," when it suddenly hits him that EVERYONE in the world deserves to die -- either because they are wicked or, if not, the victims of wickedness who should be put out of their misery. And yes, maybe there's a second epiphany, of a very different sort, when Todd realizes what he has done with his last murder, and this causes him to finally realize that "to seek revenge may lead to hell." |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:51 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - Michael_Portantiere 09:54 am EDT 08/10/20 | |
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| And yes, maybe there's a second epiphany, of a very different sort, when Todd realizes what he has done with his last murder, and this causes him to finally realize that "to seek revenge may lead to hell." I unfortunately never got to see Len Cariou do the role, but I've been told that when Tobias went to slit his throat, he actually lifted his head a bit as if to welcome death, tacitly acknowledging his guilt. (And of course there was originally a lyric in "Epiphany" that was changed - "We all deserve to die / Even you, Mrs. Lovett, even I." Maybe too much foreshadowing?) |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: larry13 08:26 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - Chromolume 04:51 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
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| I wasn't aware the lyric was changed. Do you know when or anything more about what it was changed to? | |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:26 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - larry13 08:26 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
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| I'm almost certain that the lyrics in "Epiphany" were changed FROM a repeat of "Tell you why, Mrs. Lovett, tell you why" TO "Even you, Mrs. Lovett, even I." The former version is on the original cast album, and I believe I've heard the latter in every production since then. | |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:29 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - Michael_Portantiere 09:26 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
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| I think you may be right after all. I was sure it was the other way around, but looking back at some sources now, it does seem that the repeat came first. Thanks for the correction. ;-) | |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: larry13 09:43 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - Michael_Portantiere 09:26 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
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| Thank you. I'm not able to access my OBC recording as quickly as I can FINISHING THE HAT. There on p. 355 are BOTH the lyrics you cite, in the order you cite, separated by several other lines of the song. | |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:59 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - larry13 09:43 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
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| Thanks. On the OBC album, there's definitely a repeat of "Tell you why, Mrs. Lovett, tell you why." Every time I hear that, I wonder when the repeat was changed to the other lyrics. I don't remember for sure what's in the tour video with Hearn and Lansbury, will have to check :-) | |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:48 am EDT 08/11/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - Michael_Portantiere 11:59 pm EDT 08/10/20 | |
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| In the manuscript conductor's score, the lyric was changed to "even you/even I." But the copyists' marks on the first page date the score of that song to 2 months after the opening. So it may have happened then? (That was part of my mistake - I always thought that score had existed earlier - but seeing that date change made me think.) Usually such a change would be marked with a revision date, but there's no such indication in this score. The original *published* version of the script has the repeat of "tell you why" - I don't know if that was changed in subsequent printings. There is a youtube performance with Cariou (which I had actually never known about, and will now have to watch) and he does repeat "Tell you why" in that. I haven't checked the Hearn video. |
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| re: Guinevere - Likable | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:03 am EDT 08/11/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Guinevere - Likable - Chromolume 12:48 am EDT 08/11/20 | |
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| Hi, I just checked the video, and Hearn sings the "tell you why" repeat. | |
| Link | SWEENEY TODD, "Epiphany" -- George Hearn |
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