Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| While Rainbow left many of these bigoted tweets far behind, the past caught up to him Monday afternoon. His nearly 10-year-old tweets were first resurfaced by Twitter user @spookperson, who highlighted several years of tweets using language that is considered hate speech by some social networking giants. In a series of tweets that spanned nearly a year, Rainbow repeatedly used the term “tranny” in attempts to be comedic. | |
| Link | Randy Rainbow is under fire for racist and transphobic tweets dating back to 2010. |
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| re: What does it say about ATC that this is the longest recent thread? Inquiring minds want to know. | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 10:06 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| nm | |
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| Personally, I preferred when folks were getting excited and writing in length about treasure trails! | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 03:44 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:42 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What does it say about ATC that this is the longest recent thread? Inquiring minds want to know. - NewtonUK 10:06 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| Wasn't that about "South Pacific" as well? I think that was one of the longest threads ever. I think Ann can confirm this. | |
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| Those were the days ... | |
| Posted by: Ann 04:11 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: Personally, I preferred when folks were getting excited and writing in length about treasure trails! - PlayWiz 03:42 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| One of the longest, probably, but I cannot say for sure if it was the longest thread. It's my impression that there have been longer threads (and I can't really state what the longest thread is, though as bored as the shutdown has made me, I could go back and count the posts in the original treasure trail thread, instead of contemplating my own navel). | |
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| re: Those were the days ... | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 08:12 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 08:10 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: Those were the days ... - Ann 04:11 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| You could even post the whole original thread, if you wanted to and had the capacity to. Though it might push things here down QUITE a bit (unless you put it in a FAQ place or elsewhere, perhaps labeled "ATC Classics"), but anyway, its cheerful zaniness and lightness of spirit for the most part might be a tonic in these trying and turbulent times. | |
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| re: Those were the days ... | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 04:24 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: Those were the days ... - Ann 04:11 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| Oh, that was a classic. Patti LuPone and audiences misbehaving went on for a long, long time, too. Laura |
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| re: What does it say about ATC that this is the longest recent thread? Inquiring minds want to know. | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:15 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What does it say about ATC that this is the longest recent thread? Inquiring minds want to know. - NewtonUK 10:06 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| Actually, what I would say it says about ATC is that it's great to have people intelligently and respectfully debate and express different opinions on a very complex and controversial subject. In my opinion, that's what's happening here. | |
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| re: What does it say about ATC that this is the longest recent thread? Inquiring minds want to know. | |
| Posted by: Cornus 01:07 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What does it say about ATC that this is the longest recent thread? Inquiring minds want to know. - Michael_Portantiere 12:15 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| I thought the exact same thing. I even sent my niece a link to this thread commenting that it is so much more enjoyable reading the intelligent responses here than the inane stuff I read on FB. | |
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| In fairness... | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 11:27 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: What does it say about ATC that this is the longest recent thread? Inquiring minds want to know. - NewtonUK 10:06 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| ... more of it is about South Pacific than Randy Rainbow. You just can't tell from the subject lines. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:16 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Link | LGBTQ Nation: Randy Rainbow's racist & transphobic tweets resurface. And there are dozens |
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| Posted this in the wrong place. It was meant to be in reply to the OP's initial post. | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 02:51 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:50 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - WaymanWong 02:16 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| I'll start by saying that I've watched and/or listened to only a couple of RR's parodies. The ones I saw or heard didn't strike me as particularly clever or well-done. Not awful but not great. And without wanting to get overly political, I should also say that I feel DT is a delusional egomaniac, a sociopath, a coward, a bully, a compulsive liar, a hypocrite, a thief, and a sexual predator. I could list more things but I'll leave it there. So I'm in agreement with RR's political point of view. I also have been upset for years now by what has come to be known as "cancel culture." I'm a fervent First Amendment absolutist. I think those on the left who try to censor people do themselves and the entire left wing of the country (and the country as a whole) a great disservice. With all that as preface, I found the things I read yesterday on the page linked by the OP to be pretty appalling. I really don't think there's much excuse for the things RR posted that are quoted there. And it's not like he was saying these things privately. I'm sure pretty much everyone has said things privately that they wouldn't want to be made public. I certainly have. On the other hand (since the word I'm bringing up has been discussed in this thread), I will mention that until yesterday, when I typed the word in a discussion about this story, I don't think I had ever written or typed or said the word tranny. It's not that I'm so woke. I don't even claim that I've been especially sensitive to the issues and the oppression faced by the trans community and trans individuals. It's just so clearly a negative word, and I think that's always been clear to me. Even if Ru Paul uses it. One more thing: If I ever leave Manhattan or my current apartment, my main priority in choosing someplace new to live will be a place where I have to deal with less noise. The amount of noise where I live is maddening. I'm very sympathetic to people who find noise where they live to be disturbing. And I found his "black noise" comment hugely offensive. Not funny. At all. Again, none of us, including (perhaps especially) me, is perfect, but he said these things in a very public forum. It doesn't seem like he said them in order to mock the attitudes expressed. He should apologize. If you like his work and you want to watch any new videos from him (or rewatch old ones), I don't think that means that you endorse the attitudes he expressed. As for me, I didn't watch more than a couple of his videos, and I don't feel the need to watch any new ones he may produce. If I'd been a fan, perhaps I'd be more forgiving. |
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| Oh, wow, this only gets worse | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:26 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - WaymanWong 02:16 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| Adding Mexican and Asian jokes to the mix, hitting the usual roster of denigrating Asian men's penises and calling Mexicans tiny, plus some truly Trump worthy comments calling Latinx people criminals. This is turning into a trainwreck. And yes, these jokes were offensive and wrong in 2010 - that was just ten years ago, and people knew better. | |
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| re: Oh, wow, this only gets worse | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 04:14 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 04:13 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Oh, wow, this only gets worse - Singapore/Fling 01:26 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| Another Asian ''joke'' from the Randy Rainbow collection of tweets: ''Called a guy who bumped into me this morning an asshole and now I feel bad cuz I think he might have been a dickhead. Or Asian.'' |
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| re: Oh, wow, this only gets worse | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:01 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Oh, wow, this only gets worse - WaymanWong 04:13 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| Appalling. And noticeable that people who were defending his Transphobic remarks are not engaging whatsoever with these racist tweets. | |
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| re: Oh, wow, this only gets worse | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:23 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Oh, wow, this only gets worse - Singapore/Fling 05:01 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| ''Called a guy who bumped into me this morning an asshole and now I feel bad cuz I think he might have been a dickhead. Or Asian." I'm not sure how anyone could attempt to defend this "joke." |
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| Here's what I can't understand... | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:44 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:35 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Oh, wow, this only gets worse - Singapore/Fling 01:26 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| It's one thing when you're trying to gain fame by saying outlandish things in the hopes that you'll gain attention. It's quite another when you're so famous that you're nominated for Emmy Awards and being invited as a guest on mainstream news and entertainment shows. The fact that Randy Rainbow made it this far without thinking that perhaps it was time to revisit the things he'd said and -- gosh, at minimum, DELETE THEM, but better, APOLOGIZE for them -- makes me feel extra cynical about whether liberals are any less capable than conservatives of claiming political positions merely because it's what their audience would pay to hear. We know full well that these were the accusations we leveled at people like Glenn Beck back in the day, or might even say of someone like Rush Limbaugh today. "They can't possibly believe this stuff... they must just know that this is what their paying audience wants to hear." When tweets like these come to light, how are we not supposed to view Randy Rainbow's anti-Trump sentiments through an equally cynical lens? What does this guy ACTUALLY believe about people of color, women, and trans folks? It's just horribly dispiriting. It's very tempting to believe that liberals who find a mass audience are truly opposed to racism, sexism, and homophobia. But maybe we shoudln't be so sunny about it all. Entertainers want to pay the bills just like everyone else. - GMB |
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| re: Here's what I can't understand... | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:48 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Here's what I can't understand... - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:35 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| A hundred percent! I'm baffled he didn't delete these years ago, but more importantly, his response so far is to paint himself as the victim of unfairness - another Trump quality - which suggests that he doesn't see anything wrong with these comments. | |
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| Transphobic and Privileged Jokes | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 10:43 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:42 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Rainbow's jokes are disrespectful and unquestionably transphobic and privileged, but if he acknowledges the harm caused, I think we can all move on in peace. Advisory, I'm going to use the word in question in the following: The "tranny" jokes are appalling, and unquestionably show him being transphobic. The jokes are nasty and angry, meant to wound and denigrate. Whether or not we feel the word was fair usage in 2010, the construction of the joke makes it clear that being identified as a "tranny" is negative, and that Rainbow is shouting it out on the street to people he thinks fit this description. That's gross. That's bullying and harassment (and hopefully only a thing that happened in his head). That's, to borrow a word, repugnant. And it's conspicuous how many on this thread are defending Rainbow, asking for our understanding about the context, after blanketly calling for Leslie Odom, Jr's head last week, but I think that's an example of his White Male privilege. That's also how I view his Black jokes: he's the best example of what happens when White Gay Men think they can perform Black Girl Culture. These jokes are tacky and wrong. They are disrespectful to Black women, and they are just kind of ugly to hear. He should've known better then, and he definitely should know better now, otherwise, he needs to break out his copy of "Me and White Supremacy" and start journalling. So these jokes are a hot mess, but that doesn't mean Rainbow hasn't grown into a better person in the past ten years, and I wouldn't want to be judged for things that I said when I was 29. I think it should be easy for him to acknowledge that these statements caused harm, whether intentional or not; to own his bias; and perhaps do work on behalf of the Trans community as ammends. He has an opportunity to model for other white people how to take responsibility and restore justice, and I hope he takes it. PS - As for RuPaul, please do not use him as an example of what is appropriate for how to speak of the Trans community. RuPaul is a national treasure and one of the most important figures in modern gay liberation, but he has also displayed Transphobia, and it took his show a long time to acknowledge that Trans people exist, even while they were appearing on the show. That isn't a reason to lambast or cancel RuPaul - do that because he's a fracker - but it is to say don't let him be your guide. |
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| re: Transphobic and Privileged Jokes | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 12:01 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: Transphobic and Privileged Jokes - Singapore/Fling 10:42 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I used RuPaul as an example because as you said he is " is a national treasure and one of the most important figures in modern gay liberation". I figure if he can grow and change, so can Randy Rainbow. We have to wait and see. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: allineedisthegirl 12:59 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| This is so much fun! Let's get our torches. db |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: DavidEsq 10:32 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Let's also not be so cavalier with using the word "resurface". That implies something that just naturally came up. This has been a right-wing tactic for years now and every time we fall for it we enable them. This is how we get Trump. This is an intentional orchestrated political distraction and don't fool yourself into thinking this is anything but that. Please stop enabling this. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 10:46 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 10:40 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - DavidEsq 10:32 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I checked the tweet's source but I have no idea whether that was the original source. It's very hard to say whether the present use of these past tweets by Rainbow is a concerted campaign to bring down an opponent or not. So I'd say your point is very possible but not necessarily provable. That margin of uncertainty is, for the present time until the next platform upstages it, the awesome power of Twitter. | |
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| I need to move to a new planet | |
| Posted by: TheHarveyBoy 07:39 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| This is all getting too ridiculous for me to bear. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: Roman 10:55 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| Posted by: Roman 10:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| My head hurts. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: FrankF 09:20 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| HAHAHAHAHA. This is ridiculous. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:11 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - FrankF 09:20 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| One hundred percent agreed that this is ridiculous. Also despicable. Probably the doing of some right wing, pro-Trump group. Attempting to vilify someone for using the word "tranny" back in the day, when it was not remotely considered offensive by anyone, is equivalent to vilifying someone for using the phrase "colored people" 50 or 60 years ago, when the term was considered the preferred one in referring to that group of people, to the point where the acronym NAACP stood for -- and still to this day stands for -- "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People." And, to keep that point theater related, I would cite "for colored girls who have considered suicide / when the rainbow is enuf." |
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| Michael, you are flat wrong. | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:39 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:30 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:11 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| You're so wrong that I'm not sure that it's worth my time to explain to you how mistaken your point of view is here. Read those tweets, take the time to think through all the awful things he's actually SAYING and implying about transgender people -- beyond the mere use of the term -- and humble yourself. When you find the time. - GMB |
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| re: Michael, you are flat wrong. | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:34 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: Michael, you are flat wrong. - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:30 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| I do apologize. My initial response was based ONLY on the three tweets I had read in the ADVOCATE article (which I initially thought were the only ones everyone else was reacting to) and on my general feeling, because of my own experience, that the word "tranny" was not necessarily pejorative. Now that I have read further, my feelings have changed. | |
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| thank you | |
| Posted by: comedywest 10:38 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:11 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| This is beyond ridiculous. When I read it, I kept say, "Yeah and..." But of course there is no there there. We have to stop policing people language, especially words whose meanings have changed. The important thing for the Daily Dot though is that it will get clicks and that is what matters. |
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| re: thank you | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 10:48 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: thank you - comedywest 10:38 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Should we stop policing all of his racist comments as well? | |
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| re: thank you | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 10:58 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: thank you - Ncassidine 10:48 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| His comments are designed to distract and enflame. And they work every single time. People spend the next 24 hours outraged. Meanwhile, the important issues are overlooked. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JAllenC3 10:15 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:11 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Michael, there are many articles online from prior to 2010 that discuss how the term "tranny" is offensive. Maybe you don't feel it is. Maybe people in your social circle thought it was acceptable. But that does not excuse it. It's one thing if members of the trans community use the word for themselves, but for a cis-man to use it even in 2010 in a derogatory manner (which Rainbow's tweets are) wasn't ok. And if you don't think the use of "colored people" by white people was a problem 50 or 60 years ago, why is it (and was it) so jarring when Nellie Forbush used it to describe Emile's kids in South Pacific? |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 10:55 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JAllenC3 10:15 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| And if you don't think the use of "colored people" by white people was a problem 50 or 60 years ago, why is it (and was it) so jarring when Nellie Forbush used it to describe Emile's kids in South Pacific? Because context. C'mon, we're better than this. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JAllenC3 11:37 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - MockingbirdGirl 10:55 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| And the context of Rainbow's tweets was to mock and belittle in order to elicit humor from others. He has a long history of transphobia that didn't end in 2010. He also has a long history of making jokes at the expense of racial minorities. He's been under fire for this for multiple days now and he has yet to apologize. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:38 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JAllenC3 10:15 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "And if you don't think the use of 'colored people' by white people was a problem 50 or 60 years ago, why is it (and was it) so jarring when Nellie Forbush used it to describe Emile's kids in South Pacific?" The obvious answer is that the word is jarring and offensive when Nellie uses it in SOUTH PACIFIC because of her bigoted, racist attitude when she says it. As you may know, in TALES OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC, the "n" word is used instead. (Nellie doesn't actually speak the word, but Michener tells us that's the way she thinks of Emile's dead wife). Are you saying that the use of "colored people" by the NAACP was perfectly fine because that group named themselves, but was never fine when used by white people -- not even half a century ago? If that's the case, were white people not allowed to speak the full name of the NAACP? Or was it okay for them to use that phrase ONLY in that context? The way I see it, even completely neutral words like "gay," "jew," and "black" can sound very offensive when used as epithets, with the intent to give offense. But I don't think anyone is suggesting those words be banned as well. At lest, not yet.... |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 01:12 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:38 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I am still agog that someone does not see that the more formal "colored" is a different category of word than the more slangy "tranny." "Colored" was a preferred, respectful term 75-100 years ago. That is the reason it was used in the musical. Because it was a non-offensive term, Hammerstein used to replace the n-word--which was the term Nellie used in Michner's book. If Nellie has used the n-word, Hammerstein felt the she would have lost much of the audience's sympathy. Just like Rainbow's current situation. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:08 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - whereismikeyfl 01:12 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| ***"Colored" was a preferred, respectful term 75-100 years ago. That is the reason it was used in the musical. Because it was a non-offensive term, Hammerstein used to replace the n-word--which was the term Nellie used in Michner's book. If Nellie has used the n-word, Hammerstein felt the she would have lost much of the audience's sympathy.**** Yes, I'm basically in agreement with that. But also, to clarify here and what I wrote previously: Though I COULD be wrong, I'm almost certain that Nellie doesn't even speak the word "colored" in the published script of SOUTH PACIFIC, and did not speak it in the original Broadway production. When the Lincoln Center Theater production opened, I'm pretty sure I read that the word had appeared in the script at one point, and they decided to reinstate it to make Nellie's reaction more powerful. Going from my memory: After learning that Ngana and Jerome are Emile's children, not Henri's, Nellie is shocked, and what she says to Emile is: "And there mother was....." She doesn't finish the question, so Emile says: "A Polynesian. And she was beautiful Nellie." Also, to repeat: I'm pretty sure that, even in TALES OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC, Nellie does not actually speak the "n" word in dialogue, though we are told that this is the word that comes to her mind when she learns about Emile's children and his deceased wife. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: whereismikeyfl 04:28 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 04:25 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 02:08 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I think you are right that she never says the word, but Michner does state that Nellie considered the native people of the island "n******s" like she knew from Little Rock. He is more explicit than the musical that Nellie was disturbed by the idea that a man who touched a n***** would touch her. Michner is out of fashion but Tales of the South Pacific is a wonderful collection of stories that is even more timely today, as it traces how American superimpose the mores of the US on the people of the Pacific. His "wokeness" shows that even if one is born in a time when causal bigotry is accepted, not everyone is a bigot. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 07:52 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - whereismikeyfl 04:25 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| ****I think you are right that she never says the word, but Michner does state that Nellie considered the native people of the island "n******s" like she knew from Little Rock.**** Right, isn't that what I wrote? |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 08:46 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 07:52 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Yup. I was agreeing, but may not have written it clearly enough for it to be clear. I was reading ALL the unread posts which may have colored my tone in responding. I am sorry. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:29 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - whereismikeyfl 08:46 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| NP, and thanks for providing a little more detail about what Michener writes about Nellie's racism. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:32 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 02:08 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Going from my memory: After learning that Ngana and Jerome are Emile's children, not Henri's, Nellie is shocked, and what she says to Emile is: "And there mother was....." She doesn't finish the question, so Emile says: "A Polynesian. And she was beautiful Nellie." Your memory is 100% correct. ;-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:16 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 02:32 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Thanks :-) Come to think of it, I'm sure my memory was aided greatly by the fact that I believe the lines are exactly the same in the 1958 film version. I do not remember what was said in the Glenn Close version, and I certainly don't own that one on video, so I can't check :-) | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 03:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 02:32 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Also, I don't think Emile was married to the mother of his children, except in the film version, where, I suppose, out-of-wedlock children were just a taboo too far. I've always wondered if Emile wants to marry Nellie, or finds her an acceptable woman to marry, because she is white. I don't think he would consciously admit to racism, especially where his children are concerned, but it might be the case that Emile, who would likely have grown up in the 19teens, would acknowledge that there are women you love and women you marry. Perhaps, in Nellie, he has found both. In any case, I hope Emile lives a long life, because I can't imagine Nellie either remaining on the island as a widow or returning to Little Rock with two Polynesian stepchildren in tow. I've always wished that more of SOUTH PACIFIC was about Nellie grappling with the racism that she was taught at home in Little Rock. It would be interesting for the sunny and optimistic heroine to discover the darkness within and actually wrestle with it. And it would have given Hammerstein an opportunity to write some substantial conversations/lyrics for Nellie with characters other than Emile. It's interesting to me that, although contemporary productions almost always cast minority actors in the ensemble, Rodgers and Hammerstein didn't create any characters here who are specifically African-American. Surely there must be some black sailors or marines or even nurses on this island and surely it would be very interesting for Nellie to actually talk to someone of color and have a real conversation. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 03:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "Also, I don't think Emile was married to the mother of his children, except in the film version, where, I suppose, out-of-wedlock children were just a taboo too far." Actually, I think even in the movie version of the musical, in the scene where Captain Brackett and Harbison are telling Cable about Emile, Brackett still says only that Emile lived with a Polynesian woman for years, and also that he had two children by her. But he doesn't say they were married, and I don't believe we're supposed to think they were. So again, it was my mistake in referring to her as "Emile's deceased wife." "I've always wished that more of SOUTH PACIFIC was about Nellie grappling with the racism that she was taught at home in Little Rock." I understand why you feel that way, but I really think there's enough of that content in the musical as written to make the point very well. First there's the final scene of Act I, in which Nellie becomes so upset to learn of Emile's two half-Polynesian children that (as played in the movie) she becomes nearly hysterical with weeping and runs away. And then there's the very powerful scene with Cable and Emile, just before "You've Got to Be Taught." And of course, in that song, Cable very pointedly and succinctly states the tragic truth about racism and bigotry. To have put any more explicit discussion of racism in the show might have seemed too didactic or slege-hammerish, and perhaps might even been less effective for that reason. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 08:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 04:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I agree, in principle, with what you're saying, but the heavy lifting of considering racism is handled by the men here. And I guess what I'm wishing is that Nellie herself had more of an arc to play out with regard to that. Her perspective is completely different from that of the men and I'd be interested in more of her journey. She goes from being horrified that Emile would have half-Polynesian children to making the decision to join this family as a wife and mother to those same children. The mother role is even one she takes up before Emile even returns from his mission...before she even knows if he's still alive. So...how does she do that? What's going on in her head? What does she have to do to make that leap and love those children? I know...it would all be too much and the show would sink under the weight, but Nellie has, arguably, the most interesting and relatable character arc of the Rodgers and Hammerstein heroines and we don't get to see very much of how she gets from point A to point C. She seems to make this journey almost completely on her own. There's not even a Carrie Pipperidge/Ado Annie best friend character for her to talk over her feelings. |
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| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:49 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 08:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| JereNYC, you make some very good points here. This is what I think Hammerstein was going for: The audience falls in love with Nellie over the course of Act I, and we are meant to be shocked when her racism comes to the fore at the end of the act. But, in the Act II scene with Cable and Emile, after "Honey Bun," we can hear from what little she says to Emile on the subject that Nellie is terribly conflicted about her racism, and she really stumbles when she tries to explain it it. ("This is born in me.") When she learns very late in the show that Emile has put himself in mortal danger to go on that mission with Cable, and then when she learns that Cable has been killed, all of that is more than enough to bring her quickly to the realization of how foolish and nonsensical her racist feelings are ("What piffle! What a pinhead I was!") BY THE WAY, there is a huge complication here. It has often been pointed out that Nellie's shocked reaction to learning about Emile's children and their dead mother is not only because the children are half-Polynesian, but because Emile has not previously told her that he has any children at all. He has already proposed to her WITHOUT HAVING TOLD HER that he has two children living with him. Many people rightly consider this a major flaw in the book, especially in terms of how the audience is supposed to feel about Emile. And the thing is, I think it could have been fixed or at least finessed by not having Emile actually propose to Nellie ("Will you marry me?") before he tells her about his children. P.S. I realize that the word "pinhead" is now rightly considered offensive, I'm just quoting the libretto as written :-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:44 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 08:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I think Nellie's journey is very clear. I think she takes up the mother role precisely because she doesn't know if he will return. She herself says when asked by Emile that she thinks his children are sweet. She can't get over Emile's involvement with their mother. But then she learns that Emile has gone behind enemy lines, risking his life for the things that the United States is fighting for, and that Cable is dead. And she knows what Cable told her about his inability to marry Liat even though he loves her. And then, finally, Bloody Mary and Liat come to her. Sometimes less is more, and I'm not sure what Nellie could say or sing that she doesn't say or sing that wouldn't seem simplistic and overly explanatory. I think they got it right, even though, like many older musicals, it's a bit odd that certain things don't get sung about. It's very odd that Nellie's only major singing in act two is "Honey Bun." But I think her brief "Some Enchanted Evening" reprise along with what she says in that scene and other scenes make her journey clear, and we feel it more deeply because she doesn't spell it out for us. Sometimes you don't fully appreciate someone until you lose that person or, fortunately for Nellie, almost lose that person. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:56 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 10:44 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "I think Nellie's journey is very clear. I think she takes up the mother role precisely because she doesn't know if he will return. She herself says when asked by Emile that she thinks his children are sweet. She can't get over Emile's involvement with their mother. But then she learns that Emile has gone behind enemy lines, risking his life for the things that the United States is fighting for, and that Cable is dead. And she knows what Cable told her about his inability to marry Liat even though he loves her. And then, finally, Bloody Mary and Liat come to her. Sometimes less is more." Very well expressed, thank you. "I think they got it right, even though, like many older musicals, it's a bit odd that certain things don't get sung about. It's very odd that Nellie's only major singing in act two is 'Honey Bun.' But I think her brief 'Some Enchanted Evening' reprise along with what she says in that scene and other scenes make her journey clear, and we feel it more deeply because she doesn't spell it out for us." Yes, but also, one could argue that Nellie's brief reprise of "Some Enchanted Evening" is all the more powerful BECAUSE she hasn't previously sung anything serious in Act II -- not to mention the fact that this is the first and only time that we hear her sing the main section of that beautiful song, not till about 12 minutes or so before the show ends. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:57 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:56 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| I agree. What I perhaps should have said is that if South Pacific were written nowadays, we'd probably get a show in which Nellie sang more explicitly and directly about her change of feelings. And that's why it may seem odd to us that she doesn't. But as I said (and you clearly agree), sometimes less is more. (And at three hours, including intermission, in performance, there's already plenty of more in South Pacific.) | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:22 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 02:57 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| "What I perhaps should have said is that if South Pacific were written nowadays, we'd probably get a show in which Nellie sang more explicitly and directly about her change of feelings. And that's why it may seem odd to us that she doesn't. But as I said (and you clearly agree), sometimes less is more. (And at three hours, including intermission, in performance, there's already plenty of more in South Pacific.)" Right. And specifically, of course, in addition to the sections of the script that are concerned with Nellie's racism, there are also the scenes involving other characters that deal with that, not to mention the brief but extremely powerful song "You've Got to Be Taught." I think that, all told, there's enough content in the show directly addressing racism that, if there were more, it really might have seemed heavy-handed. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:59 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 02:57 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| (And at three hours, including intermission, in performance, there's already plenty of more in South Pacific.) They could have started by cutting Billis and that whole subplot...:-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:31 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 06:59 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| "They could have started by cutting Billis and that whole subplot... :-) " Even though I played Billis in high school, I agree that his is the most poorly written role in the show by far, ESPECIALLY all the time they spend on that long, involved, silly plot point where he creates a military diversion by falling out of a plane. (They spent EVEN MORE time on that in the movie version, and actually depicted it, presumably for the sake of humor, but I don't find it funny AT ALL). I think it's a great tribute to Danny Burstein that he was able to make the character bearable and at least mildly amusing, though I do think there were pretty big cuts in the particular scene where the incident referenced above is recounted. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:37 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 12:31 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| Agreed - obviously Billis is supposed to be the "comic" character - but he's just not funny. Also, if we're going to look at issues of prejudice and stereotype, etc, his seeming obsession with the whole boar's tooth ceremony stuff fits right in. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:20 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 03:37 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| "Agreed - obviously Billis is supposed to be the 'comic' character - but he's just not funny. " Right. I certainly understand why they tried to get some comic relief into Act II, and specifically into that scene just before we learn of Cable's fate, but I agree with you, the Billis stuff is just not funny. "If we're going to look at issues of prejudice and stereotype, etc, his seeming obsession with the whole boar's tooth ceremony stuff fits right in. Well, unless I misunderstand you, I'm not sure I agree with that. It seems pretty clear to me tha Billis is obsessed with that ceremony for two reasons: (1) the boar's teeth are apparently very valuable, if you can get your hands on one, and he's all about money; (2) we're told that the ceremony involves women dancing "with just skirts on," and that's another thing Billis is very interested in. I just doubled checked and the stuff about the boar's tooth ceremony is from Michener. I assume he provided an accurate description of it, which was then referenced in the musical. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:59 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 04:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| To have put any more explicit discussion of racism in the show might have seemed too didactic or slege-hammerish, and perhaps might even been less effective for that reason. I'd agree. Oscar-Hammerish is not sledge-hammerish (even if he did have important socio/political points to make). ;-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 07:40 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 04:59 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "I'd agree. Oscar-Hammerish is not sledge-hammerish (even if he did have important socio/political points to make). ;-)" Yes. I would say that those who were very vocal about their hatred of "You've Got to be Taught" may well have felt the message of the song was laid on with a sledge-hammer, though I assume the only people felt that way hated that message more than the style in which it was delivered :-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 07:40 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I once had a very odd but interesting conversation about "Carefully Taught" with a small group of high school students I was teaching. Some of them were saying they felt the song was racist, and I realize that they were hearing the lyric in the opposite way that it was intended, It makes me wonder how many other people have misconstrued the meaning of the song. It all comes down to syntax. Is the lyric "you've GOT to be taught" or is it "you've got to be TAUGHT"? Obviously in context, Hammerstein was going for the latter choice - that racism is taught. But the kids were hearing the "got" as an imperative - as if Cable were advocating being taught that way (you've GOT to be taught to do this). It was the first time I realized the lyric could indeed be heard that way. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:42 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 09:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| ****I once had a very odd but interesting conversation about "Carefully Taught" with a small group of high school students I was teaching. Some of them were saying they felt the song was racist, and I realize that they were hearing the lyric in the opposite way that it was intended, It makes me wonder how many other people have misconstrued the meaning of the song. It all comes down to syntax. Is the lyric "you've GOT to be taught" or is it "you've got to be TAUGHT"? Obviously in context, Hammerstein was going for the latter choice - that racism is taught. But the kids were hearing the "got" as an imperative - as if Cable were advocating being taught that way (you've GOT to be taught to do this). It was the first time I realized the lyric could indeed be heard that way.**** That's fascinating. Of course, given the way the lyrics are set to the music, one could say that the words "got" and "taught" are given equal emphasis, so there's really no help there if you feel it's necessary to stress "taught" over "got" (and I understand why you feel that way). My first reaction was that anyone would have to be pretty dense to interpret the song as pro- rather than anti- bigotry, though arguably it might at least partly depend on whether or not the song is experienced in the context of the show. (How did your students experience it?) That said, I remember that when I was very young, there was a public service TV commercial that used a very lovely, lyrical, wistful recording of "Carefully Taught" as sung by a female voice, played behind footage of children of all races playing together, to make the anti-bigotry point. In that case, I had no trouble immediately understanding the meaning of the song outside of the context of SOUTH PACIFIC, though of course I would say the footage and the context of the commercial itself helped greatly. Hey -- I just looked for the commercial on YouTube, and here it is! It was for the NYC Commission on Human Rights. |
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| Link | "You've Got to be Taught" -- NYC Commission on Human Rights TV commercial, 1970 |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 11:07 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 09:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| A lot of people who hear the song out of context or read the lyrics misunderstand the intent. I have had to explain it many times to young people who assume this song was in favor of "careful teaching." In part it is because they recognize that the music is from "the old days" and they know that there bigotry was pervasive then---so they assume advocating for prejudice would have been acceptable. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:12 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - whereismikeyfl 11:07 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| *****A lot of people who hear the song out of context or read the lyrics misunderstand the intent. I have had to explain it many times to young people who assume this song was in favor of "careful teaching." In part it is because they recognize that the music is from "the old days" and they know that there bigotry was pervasive then---so they assume advocating for prejudice would have been acceptable.***** I do understand that point, but on the other hand, I would think that many bigoted, racist people don't view their own feelings as "hatred" or "fear." I would hope that the use of those words in "Carefully Taught," and also phrases like "It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear," would make it very clear that the song is meant to be bitterly ironic, that having it "drummed in your dear little ear" that you need to "hate all the people your relatives hate" is being condemned rather than advocated. That said, I have heard the opinion expressed that many young people, in particular, have trouble understanding irony. I'm not sure why this should be true, but maybe it is, and maybe that's a major part of the problem here. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:47 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 12:12 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| That said, I have heard the opinion expressed that many young people, in particular, have trouble understanding irony. Two words - Alanis. Morissette. ;-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 04:10 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 03:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Did you see the Bartlett Sher production? Although there were Black sailors in the company, they were often kept distinctly separate from the white sailors, even in choreographed numbers. You can actually see it in this production photo. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:49 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 03:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "Surely there must be some black sailors or marines or even nurses on this island and surely it would be very interesting for Nellie to actually talk to someone of color and have a real conversation." There wouldn't have been. The American military was still strictly segregated. I believe that in Michener, it's explicitly stated that Emile never married the mother of his children. In the musical, it's strongly implied. Brackett says that Emile "lived with a Polynesian woman for five years." |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:22 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 03:49 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| ***I believe that in Michener, it's explicitly stated that Emile never married the mother of his children. In the musical, it's strongly implied. Brackett says that Emile "lived with a Polynesian woman for five years."*** Yes, I apologize. Above, I referred to the Polynesian mother of Emile's children as his "deceased wife," but I agree it's made pretty clear in the musical that they were not married. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:01 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 03:49 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "There wouldn't have been. The American military was still strictly segregated." I didn't realize the segregation extended to field hospitals as well. I assumed that black troops might be stationed on this part of the island and white on that part of the island, never intentionally to mix. But it wouldn't really have made sense to have two different hospital set ups with two different medical staffs. And I'd have thought that Nellie, as a nurse, might be right on the only spot where actual interaction with black service members might be possible. At the time, would doctors or nurses in a field hospital, like the one where Nellie and her colleagues work, actually refuse to treat non-white service members who might be brought in? Maybe, what I really mean is COULD they have done so? Would the military brass just allow soldiers or sailors or marines to die, simply because they were black and the hospital staff was white? |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:24 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 04:01 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| In South Pacific, the troops on the island have seen no fighting. It's only late in the second act that they are about to be actively involved in combat for the first time. So unless there was an accident or an outbreak of a fatal disease or something like that, no one was in danger of dying. Doing a search, I came across this article, which does suggest some answers to your questions, although I can't swear that it's entirely accurate. But at least it's not wikipedia. :) And it does align with what I'm finding in a few other articles I've read or skimmed that came up in a duckduckgo search on segregation in the u.s. military world war ii. |
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| Link | Black soldiers in World War II |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 07:55 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 04:24 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| That was really interesting...thanks for finding that. The treatment of black service members in WWII was an embarrassment to the country. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 08:31 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:11 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| While I would not rake anyone over the coals for this, it would be rewriting history to say that "tranny" was not considered remotely offensive. It was a demeaning, belittling term---that is why Rainbow could use it for an easy laugh. It if truly was "not considered remotely offensive" then the tweets would not have been funny. People always claim that racist, sexist, homophobic, etc, humor was "acceptable" yet, somehow there are always comic performers and writers who do not use that kind of humor, so clearly someone found it "unacceptable." Rainbow had to go for outrage because he had not fully developed his skills. He would not do it now. Now can we move on to TODAY's a--holes? |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:50 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - FrankF 09:20 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| And yet, it was only weeks ago out here when I got royally drubbed for saying I objected to the continued use of the term "show queens." Hmm... | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 08:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| This is getting a bit tiresome, even for an old lefty type like me (albeit white, cisgender, middle-class......). "Tranny" was a term in general use, especially in the LGBT cultures, ten years ago--let us recall that RuPaul used it and it was a common epithet on Project Runway and other queer-positive shows. No, I would not use it today and the reasons for why it is now considered offensive are legitimate and well-articulated by many. But language changes over time--why dig up decade old tweets in which a term had a very different set of connotations? As to the "racist" comments, they strike me as Rainbow making fun of white domination and supremacy of cultural markers as much as anything. Today, they may be a bridge too far, but I read the "Miss Jenkins" one as indicating that, in the period in which he grew up, to be a black woman in the primarily white socioeconomic world in which he grew up, black women would mainly be known as "roles," rather than as individuals (i.e. Randy or Randi). I think some people seem to have a lot of time on their hands, looking to find flaws in Rainbow, a figure who wears his queerness (and his smart feyness--an apologetic lack of any attempt to come across as traditionally "masculine," and I know terms like fey, masculine, and feminine are vexed and contested, but some of us are proud that we do not feel pressured to perform traditional masculinity and that we can perform a slyness that is often more associated with non-heteronormative and non-traditional gender styles, and that we have worked damn hard for that). Between COVID, the Post Office, the upcoming election--aren't there enough CURRENT issues to address? |
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| i wish i could agree | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 11:27 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:14 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - BruceinIthaca 08:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I went into reading these resurfaced tweets with the same assumption, that in the gay community "tranny" was thrown around in an "it's our word" kind of way (even though it isn't and wasn't "our" word, I acknowledge it still was treated that way). But I found it to be overused beyond that defense, and totally unnecessary, and misused. I also don't think that using "RuPaul used it" is a good justification for someone like Randy... RuPaul was, at the time, a 50 year old black drag queen super star who grew up in the club and ball and drag scenes, and who's life is live bending gender (and was surely called a "tranny" countless times before Randy was even born, not to mention knowing and working with countless trans women in his life by 2010), while Randy was a young white gender-conforming gay guy. His life, experience, career, and community do not compare to Ru's in terms of empowering him to casually throw that word around, let alone on twitter. I think a better equivalent would have been Christian Siriano saying "hot tranny mess" on TV all the time back in 2007, before the Randy tweets. But to give you a sense of the time... Siriano publicly apologized for using that phrase afterwards... in 2008. 2 years before these tweets supposedly represented what was "common and okay then". Siriano was 22 when he was on the show saying it and 23 when he apologized ... Randy was almost 30 when he tweeted these. But what I thought was more indefensible was the racial nature of the tweets. That was worse than I expected. Not because he used the "n word" or any outright racism or anything, but the casual indifference and mocking... it really doesn't look good even for way way back in the long ago of 2010. I don't know what his career or audience was then, if he had any to speak of. Many comedy people on twitter start by taking on a bit of a character in their tweets, like a "wouldn't it be funny or crazy is someone said this, i'll tweet that"... also when you have no audience you don't think about how it will be read or taken. That doesn't make it okay. It's definitely true that what was seen as "inappropriate" was not the same then as now, so it does deserve context, but it also isn't just fully defendable as totally cool then. I'm not weighing in on whether or not to "cancel" him, he hasn't even made a statement. But I don't think they are worth defending outside of "in the context of the time they aren't as bad as they read now", which doesn't mean they weren't offensive or at least a bit gross and tone deaf even then. I don't think he needs to be cancelled, but he does need to be accountable, and I hope he makes a thoughtful apology soon. |
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| re: i wish i could agree | |
| Posted by: wearenow 04:14 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: i wish i could agree - Chazwaza 11:14 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| please. anyone who was a 'tranny' then didn't care, and anyone who's not a 'tranny' now shouldn't waste their little minds making a deal out of this . |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:13 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - BruceinIthaca 08:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Bruce, I almost always reflexively assume you are coming from the right place so it is with respect that I ask if you are applying a bit of a double standard here. If the subject were (purely) race or queerness or religion etc etc and a person not of the applicable category used a term that might be "ok" coming from a person OF that category, would you come out the same? We rightly kick people to the curb based on past conduct. I don't think liking the person ought to provide a free pass. Yes, our understanding of terms (and thus our usage) evolves but I really do not think that "tranny" was a neutral term a decade ago. And I also find the "don't we have more important things to be thinking about" meme to be a lame one. On that theory, we should stop posting here altogether. When the theatre will be up and running much less what reading is going to be online for the first time this weekend fades in comparison to the subjects you mention. Sorry, but if someone is troubled by something, I think they should not be shamed for raising it. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:00 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - ryhog 10:13 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| "We rightly kick people to the curb based on past conduct." This sums up why people criticize "cancel culture". It is not just automatically "right" to automatically "kick to the curb" anyone who has anything questionable or offensive in their past. There is more nuance than that, and a swift kick to the curb does not allow for context let alone growth or accountability. People should be accountable for things they've said and done in the past, that doesn't mean we just kick them to the curb, and when we do it doesn't mean it is right. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 12:57 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:45 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chazwaza 11:00 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I agree with you. I did not intend to advocate anything automatic (I see how it could seem that I was) and I do believe that the proper course is to consider context, acceptance of responsibility, remorse, etc. before formulating our attitude toward what was said. If you read my other post in this thread, I think it comes closer to accurately expressing my feelings on the subject. That said, I find some of the content pretty bad and hope that he deals with this very soon and in a way that ends up being an opportunity for growth for him and others. ETA: His out of the box reaction to the "resurfacing" (which I just saw for the first time) does not ooze with contrition. He tweeted: "I don't know why people try to start shit with me. I'm only just a little boy." He needs to repair this asap or I suspect there are a lot of people who will not be especially charitable. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - ryhog 10:13 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| "We rightly kick people to the curb based on past conduct." It is VERY WRONG to do that if they are "kicked to the curb" for using a word, phrase or term that is now considered offensive (by some) but was absolutely NOT generally considered offensive at the time it was used. "Yes, our understanding of terms (and thus our usage) evolves but I really do not think that 'tranny' was a neutral term a decade ago." You may not think so, but it was absolutely considered neutral by many people, OF COURSE depending on the context of the word's usage. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:42 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Michael, I don't know how much of the stuff that has been brought forward on twitter etc you have read but even setting aside the "tranny" usage, or putting it in the "it depends" category, there are racist expressions and tropes that have been highlighted that I am sure you would agree were not acceptable a decade ago or even five decades ago. I don't really want to repeat them but if you need to be pointed to them I can give you some links. At some point in the next 24 hours, I expect these tweets will be taken down and a high priced PR person will have written an apology for Randy. If it feels genuine, I will be inclined to forgive because that's what my (non-racist) grandmother taught me I should do. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 09:07 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - BruceinIthaca 08:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| It absolutely was not a term in use by most people in 2010. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 09:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Ncassidine 09:07 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Well, that's a really persuasive counter-argument. Did you survey "most people"? How do you know? Or is this a case of, I didn't use the term, so I guess most people didn't? | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 08:02 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - BruceinIthaca 09:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Even if you did use it, many people knew it was wrong to use. And the racist jokes are not excusable either. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:32 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Ncassidine 08:02 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| as I said elsewhere, the racist "jokes" would have been inexcusable decades earlier. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:01 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - ryhog 09:32 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I think in a comedy world sense it has to/should be acknowledge that there didn't used to be such a black and white view of "racist jokes", and joking that played on stereotypes or casually poked at or used more shocking takes on race relations etc were acceptable to far far more people, and were not seen as "racist" as a 0 to 100 kind of way, the way they much more often/likely are now. I'm not saying that was ok or not okay - I'm just saying there is a sensitivity and an awareness to the impact of that kind of humor now that there wasn't then. Some of it I think is right, and some of it is an overcorrection, but either way, my opinion is irrelevant, it's just a observable truth of how it was for people tweeting or writing or performing comedy then. I mean have you seen sets from people like Amy Schumer from back then? Stuff she'd never say now. Anthony Jeselnik (her ex boyfriend actually, and for awhile a much bigger comedian) was even more dryly insensitive and controversial on purpose, as the schtick, and had a whole tv series on Comedy Central based around it. Playing into dark and mean and insensitive humor that certainly played on stereotypes too. Playing on something also doesn't always mean supporting the idea that it is truth. But before recently, the sensitivity to the potential impact of the perpetuation of those things was not taken as seriously. But I think the main point is that nothing in Randy's career as a sketch and song comedian has made him seem anything but fully supportive to the BIPOC and LGBTQ+ communities. And in fact I think often people that are, and are in that community, feel empowered to throw around words like "tranny"... I frankly don't think trans people would have been anywhere near as bothered by him saying it as a straight person. But we are at a point where it doesn't matter why or what empowered you to use it... however, it's not entirely fair or worthwhile to go back 10 years ago and judge in today's context. However, still, as I said in another post, GLAAD had already gone after a famous gay for using tranny on TV, and that person (Christian Siriano) apologized for it and stopped using it, 3 2-3 years before Randy's tweets. So he was almost definitely aware it was at least a touchy thing. This wasn't the 80s. But i agree that going after him for these given what his content has been in the decade since doesn't seem like a good use of time. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: ryhog 08:25 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chazwaza 02:01 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| I am not sure I follow the last thing you said. The context in the last decade is that these items were still online until a couple of days ago despite, as you point out, notice. So even through the heightened awareness of the recent months, RR did not take them down and they continued to be statements people could read and react to (whether positively or negatively). Is he being fully supportive when he fails to address his own nurturing of these racist and biased stereotypes for a laugh? Moreover, as noted, despite plenty of time to address the subject, the best he could come up with was a tweet about people giving him shit. This places him in distinctly different territory than Siriano. One more thing: I am not sure I would agree about gay vs straight speakers. There has long been prejudice by gays against their own (and of course transgendered is not necessarily "their own.") Many have bristled at the use of "straight-acting" on dating sites for a long time. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:27 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - ryhog 08:25 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| i agree that he should have taken them down and should make a statement. And i am shocked at the stupidity and insensitivity that he left them up until now. Anyone with his platform should have scrubbed their social media accounts clean of anything like these tweets -- whether he personally saw them as offensive or not, just out of the fear of being cancelled. It makes him seem both stupid as a professional and insensitive as a comedian. And yes, i wasn't comparing him at all to Siriano... i was saying Siriano did it right, and it was something Randy would have known about as it happened before these tweets, i.e. he had no excuse really to think it would be seen as "ok" if anyone was gonna see his tweets, and obviously he is dealing with it the wrong way. I agree there's a problem with gays being prejudice against their own (and I agree transgender is not necessarily their own, so I'm not entirely sure why this is being brought up as if it is), that doesn't mean that gay people might have context to use the T word that wouldn't be as harmful or hateful or dismissive as the intention when a straight person might. It's a generalization that would need specific instances to illuminate and I don't have those, but it was definitely seen as different enough to be notable. I think for some gay people it was used as a term of endearment, reclaimed like f*ggot etc, but obviously is not ok if for no other reason because the gay men saying it weren't "trannies". But Randy wasn't using it that way. Randy's usage was more mean spirited and random. anyway, his tweets are awful and gross and he should have taken them down years ago, and he should be apologizing now. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 09:28 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Ncassidine 09:07 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I think the real turning point in usage was 2014. That's when the debate really exploded in the public sphere, when Laverne Cox made the cover of Time magazine for their "transgender tipping point" story... and when the Tranny Awards changed their name to the Transgender Erotica Awards. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 08:51 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 08:42 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I think you're right. Before that were a lot of mini battles over usage of the word, mostly between drag performers (who Rainbow is probably emulating) and trans people or trans allied activists. But after the Laverne Cox ascension to American celebrity status, things really took off and changed. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 09:19 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Ncassidine 09:07 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| RuPaul was asked by Mark Maron about the use of the term"tranny" in 2016. This was his response. The drag performer sat down with comedian Marc Maron on his WTF Podcast this week and articulated his thoughts surrounding the language-based controversy, which he has refrained from addressing until now. "When asked whether he is bothered by the word “tranny,” RuPaul responded by saying, “No! I love the word tranny.” Maron then noted that the trans community is offended by the term, to which Ru responded: No, it is not the transsexual community. These are fringe people who are looking for story lines to strengthen their identity as victims. That is what we’re dealing with. It’s not the trans community, because most people who are trans have been through hell and high water and they know — they’ve looked behind the curtain at Oz and went, ‘Oh, this is all a f**king joke. But, some people haven’t... You know, if your idea of happiness has to do with someone else changing what they say, what they do, you are in for a f**king hard-ass road." |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 08:50 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Billhaven 09:19 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| You have to take RuPaul with a grain of salt since he himself is not transsexual and has been frequently criticized by members of the transsexual community over the years for (among other things) his use of the word "tranny." It is to his advantage to characterize his critics as "fringe people." Maybe they are, but I would not take RuPaul's word for it. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 10:36 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Billhaven 09:19 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I'm not sure being a covid shut--in isn't making me hyper-sensitive, but dragging up the use of a word that was once used and is now considered offensive to malign an extremely creative individual doesn't set well with me. Moreover, the fact that people were praising insurance commercials because a diva who can't give concerts anymore and is now reduced to making one of these offensive attacks on our senses .........it's too much. I hate commercials. I hate insurance commercials even more. I know they give employment to actors, but somewhere someone is racking up a bunch of sold souls. It's a pity that talented people sink to that level, but I KNOW -- They need the WORK. A conundrum, to be sure. I expect to be attacked. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: StageLover 02:23 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Pokernight 10:36 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| The discussion about the Idina Menzel commercial was too much to handle? An attack on our senses? Really? |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 03:52 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - StageLover 02:23 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| That's what you got? Insurance company commercials are an attack on MY senses.....all commercials are. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:01 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Pokernight 03:52 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I'll gladly take the Idina commercial over the new Progressive one where they're singing (badly) "Danny Boy." Ugh. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 11:09 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Pokernight 10:36 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Moreover, the fact that people were praising insurance commercials because a diva who can't give concerts anymore and is now reduced to making one of these offensive attacks on our senses Yeah, that was me. I said that it was "pretty funny." Sorry for the offending your sensibilities with my effusive praise. Consider yourself "attacked," I guess. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 08:48 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - MockingbirdGirl 11:09 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| The way I look at this is ask the simple question: Does Randy Rainbow hate trans people and minorities? Does his body of work point to degrading them somehow? No. Let's move on from this idiocy. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 08:55 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Zelgo 08:48 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| People don't have to move on. They can unfollow him if they want and encourage other people to do so. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 11:04 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Ncassidine 08:55 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Sure, they can also perform the Dance of the Seven Veils, naked, in a vat of jello. But do you really want to play into the game of divide and conquer? Do you really want to condemn people for something said 10 years ago while trying to be funny because they weren't a "woke" as you imagined you were at that time? If you do, I assure you, when you're done, you will have cancelled everyone around you. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:18 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Zelgo 11:04 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "Do you really want to condemn people for something said 10 years ago while trying to be funny because they weren't as 'woke' as you imagined you were at that time? If you do, I assure you, when you're done, you will have cancelled everyone around you." Not only that, but if they were to be totally honest, some of these people would also have to cancel themselves -- because I'd be willing to bet that at least some of them used the same words before those words were generally considered offensive, even though they may not remember doing so, or do remember but would never admit it. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: peter3053 04:24 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Michael_Portantiere 02:18 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Quite so. Such extremists tend to have big blind spots about their own failings both past and present. As it said in one of the gospels, "First take the plank out of your own eye before you try to take a splinter out of someone else's." I often remember that before taking a swipe at someone else's apparent weaknesses. It doesn't mean not trying to improve my thoughts and language about, and actions towards, others, but it does act as a force to counter being quick to condemn, or indeed, "cancel". Which reminds me how important theatre has been as a civilizing force - being in a room with characters of different perspectives for two hours, where good playwrights find ways to make us see things one way and then another, and also see the foibles and failings that go with humans who hold those views. Hammerstein held that theatre should send the "big black giant" of the audience out "a nicer giant" than when they came in. South Pacific is a good example of that. I remember how people criticized it for years as being racist, and said it could never be revived, and then when they saw it again, they realized it was completely the reverse. I heard someone say just recently "Oh, how terrible - Liat doesn't even get to speak!" - yes, but not for racist reasons - it's because she doesn't speak English and because the writers needed to dramatize her as different in order to highlight more clearly Cable's failure. Nellie's final breakthrough definitely fulfils Hammerstein's mission of theatre - but there was a while when the show was, effectively, "canceled" because of planks in eyes. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:37 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - peter3053 04:24 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| All very well put, peter3053. | |
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