Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 08:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - pecansforall 08:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| This is getting a bit tiresome, even for an old lefty type like me (albeit white, cisgender, middle-class......). "Tranny" was a term in general use, especially in the LGBT cultures, ten years ago--let us recall that RuPaul used it and it was a common epithet on Project Runway and other queer-positive shows. No, I would not use it today and the reasons for why it is now considered offensive are legitimate and well-articulated by many. But language changes over time--why dig up decade old tweets in which a term had a very different set of connotations? As to the "racist" comments, they strike me as Rainbow making fun of white domination and supremacy of cultural markers as much as anything. Today, they may be a bridge too far, but I read the "Miss Jenkins" one as indicating that, in the period in which he grew up, to be a black woman in the primarily white socioeconomic world in which he grew up, black women would mainly be known as "roles," rather than as individuals (i.e. Randy or Randi). I think some people seem to have a lot of time on their hands, looking to find flaws in Rainbow, a figure who wears his queerness (and his smart feyness--an apologetic lack of any attempt to come across as traditionally "masculine," and I know terms like fey, masculine, and feminine are vexed and contested, but some of us are proud that we do not feel pressured to perform traditional masculinity and that we can perform a slyness that is often more associated with non-heteronormative and non-traditional gender styles, and that we have worked damn hard for that). Between COVID, the Post Office, the upcoming election--aren't there enough CURRENT issues to address? |
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| i wish i could agree | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 11:27 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:14 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - BruceinIthaca 08:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I went into reading these resurfaced tweets with the same assumption, that in the gay community "tranny" was thrown around in an "it's our word" kind of way (even though it isn't and wasn't "our" word, I acknowledge it still was treated that way). But I found it to be overused beyond that defense, and totally unnecessary, and misused. I also don't think that using "RuPaul used it" is a good justification for someone like Randy... RuPaul was, at the time, a 50 year old black drag queen super star who grew up in the club and ball and drag scenes, and who's life is live bending gender (and was surely called a "tranny" countless times before Randy was even born, not to mention knowing and working with countless trans women in his life by 2010), while Randy was a young white gender-conforming gay guy. His life, experience, career, and community do not compare to Ru's in terms of empowering him to casually throw that word around, let alone on twitter. I think a better equivalent would have been Christian Siriano saying "hot tranny mess" on TV all the time back in 2007, before the Randy tweets. But to give you a sense of the time... Siriano publicly apologized for using that phrase afterwards... in 2008. 2 years before these tweets supposedly represented what was "common and okay then". Siriano was 22 when he was on the show saying it and 23 when he apologized ... Randy was almost 30 when he tweeted these. But what I thought was more indefensible was the racial nature of the tweets. That was worse than I expected. Not because he used the "n word" or any outright racism or anything, but the casual indifference and mocking... it really doesn't look good even for way way back in the long ago of 2010. I don't know what his career or audience was then, if he had any to speak of. Many comedy people on twitter start by taking on a bit of a character in their tweets, like a "wouldn't it be funny or crazy is someone said this, i'll tweet that"... also when you have no audience you don't think about how it will be read or taken. That doesn't make it okay. It's definitely true that what was seen as "inappropriate" was not the same then as now, so it does deserve context, but it also isn't just fully defendable as totally cool then. I'm not weighing in on whether or not to "cancel" him, he hasn't even made a statement. But I don't think they are worth defending outside of "in the context of the time they aren't as bad as they read now", which doesn't mean they weren't offensive or at least a bit gross and tone deaf even then. I don't think he needs to be cancelled, but he does need to be accountable, and I hope he makes a thoughtful apology soon. |
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| re: i wish i could agree | |
| Posted by: wearenow 04:14 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: i wish i could agree - Chazwaza 11:14 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| please. anyone who was a 'tranny' then didn't care, and anyone who's not a 'tranny' now shouldn't waste their little minds making a deal out of this . |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:13 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - BruceinIthaca 08:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Bruce, I almost always reflexively assume you are coming from the right place so it is with respect that I ask if you are applying a bit of a double standard here. If the subject were (purely) race or queerness or religion etc etc and a person not of the applicable category used a term that might be "ok" coming from a person OF that category, would you come out the same? We rightly kick people to the curb based on past conduct. I don't think liking the person ought to provide a free pass. Yes, our understanding of terms (and thus our usage) evolves but I really do not think that "tranny" was a neutral term a decade ago. And I also find the "don't we have more important things to be thinking about" meme to be a lame one. On that theory, we should stop posting here altogether. When the theatre will be up and running much less what reading is going to be online for the first time this weekend fades in comparison to the subjects you mention. Sorry, but if someone is troubled by something, I think they should not be shamed for raising it. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:00 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - ryhog 10:13 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| "We rightly kick people to the curb based on past conduct." This sums up why people criticize "cancel culture". It is not just automatically "right" to automatically "kick to the curb" anyone who has anything questionable or offensive in their past. There is more nuance than that, and a swift kick to the curb does not allow for context let alone growth or accountability. People should be accountable for things they've said and done in the past, that doesn't mean we just kick them to the curb, and when we do it doesn't mean it is right. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 12:57 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:45 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chazwaza 11:00 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I agree with you. I did not intend to advocate anything automatic (I see how it could seem that I was) and I do believe that the proper course is to consider context, acceptance of responsibility, remorse, etc. before formulating our attitude toward what was said. If you read my other post in this thread, I think it comes closer to accurately expressing my feelings on the subject. That said, I find some of the content pretty bad and hope that he deals with this very soon and in a way that ends up being an opportunity for growth for him and others. ETA: His out of the box reaction to the "resurfacing" (which I just saw for the first time) does not ooze with contrition. He tweeted: "I don't know why people try to start shit with me. I'm only just a little boy." He needs to repair this asap or I suspect there are a lot of people who will not be especially charitable. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - ryhog 10:13 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| "We rightly kick people to the curb based on past conduct." It is VERY WRONG to do that if they are "kicked to the curb" for using a word, phrase or term that is now considered offensive (by some) but was absolutely NOT generally considered offensive at the time it was used. "Yes, our understanding of terms (and thus our usage) evolves but I really do not think that 'tranny' was a neutral term a decade ago." You may not think so, but it was absolutely considered neutral by many people, OF COURSE depending on the context of the word's usage. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:42 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Michael, I don't know how much of the stuff that has been brought forward on twitter etc you have read but even setting aside the "tranny" usage, or putting it in the "it depends" category, there are racist expressions and tropes that have been highlighted that I am sure you would agree were not acceptable a decade ago or even five decades ago. I don't really want to repeat them but if you need to be pointed to them I can give you some links. At some point in the next 24 hours, I expect these tweets will be taken down and a high priced PR person will have written an apology for Randy. If it feels genuine, I will be inclined to forgive because that's what my (non-racist) grandmother taught me I should do. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 09:07 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - BruceinIthaca 08:51 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| It absolutely was not a term in use by most people in 2010. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 09:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Ncassidine 09:07 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Well, that's a really persuasive counter-argument. Did you survey "most people"? How do you know? Or is this a case of, I didn't use the term, so I guess most people didn't? | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 08:02 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - BruceinIthaca 09:26 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Even if you did use it, many people knew it was wrong to use. And the racist jokes are not excusable either. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:32 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Ncassidine 08:02 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| as I said elsewhere, the racist "jokes" would have been inexcusable decades earlier. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:01 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - ryhog 09:32 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I think in a comedy world sense it has to/should be acknowledge that there didn't used to be such a black and white view of "racist jokes", and joking that played on stereotypes or casually poked at or used more shocking takes on race relations etc were acceptable to far far more people, and were not seen as "racist" as a 0 to 100 kind of way, the way they much more often/likely are now. I'm not saying that was ok or not okay - I'm just saying there is a sensitivity and an awareness to the impact of that kind of humor now that there wasn't then. Some of it I think is right, and some of it is an overcorrection, but either way, my opinion is irrelevant, it's just a observable truth of how it was for people tweeting or writing or performing comedy then. I mean have you seen sets from people like Amy Schumer from back then? Stuff she'd never say now. Anthony Jeselnik (her ex boyfriend actually, and for awhile a much bigger comedian) was even more dryly insensitive and controversial on purpose, as the schtick, and had a whole tv series on Comedy Central based around it. Playing into dark and mean and insensitive humor that certainly played on stereotypes too. Playing on something also doesn't always mean supporting the idea that it is truth. But before recently, the sensitivity to the potential impact of the perpetuation of those things was not taken as seriously. But I think the main point is that nothing in Randy's career as a sketch and song comedian has made him seem anything but fully supportive to the BIPOC and LGBTQ+ communities. And in fact I think often people that are, and are in that community, feel empowered to throw around words like "tranny"... I frankly don't think trans people would have been anywhere near as bothered by him saying it as a straight person. But we are at a point where it doesn't matter why or what empowered you to use it... however, it's not entirely fair or worthwhile to go back 10 years ago and judge in today's context. However, still, as I said in another post, GLAAD had already gone after a famous gay for using tranny on TV, and that person (Christian Siriano) apologized for it and stopped using it, 3 2-3 years before Randy's tweets. So he was almost definitely aware it was at least a touchy thing. This wasn't the 80s. But i agree that going after him for these given what his content has been in the decade since doesn't seem like a good use of time. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: ryhog 08:25 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chazwaza 02:01 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| I am not sure I follow the last thing you said. The context in the last decade is that these items were still online until a couple of days ago despite, as you point out, notice. So even through the heightened awareness of the recent months, RR did not take them down and they continued to be statements people could read and react to (whether positively or negatively). Is he being fully supportive when he fails to address his own nurturing of these racist and biased stereotypes for a laugh? Moreover, as noted, despite plenty of time to address the subject, the best he could come up with was a tweet about people giving him shit. This places him in distinctly different territory than Siriano. One more thing: I am not sure I would agree about gay vs straight speakers. There has long been prejudice by gays against their own (and of course transgendered is not necessarily "their own.") Many have bristled at the use of "straight-acting" on dating sites for a long time. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:27 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - ryhog 08:25 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| i agree that he should have taken them down and should make a statement. And i am shocked at the stupidity and insensitivity that he left them up until now. Anyone with his platform should have scrubbed their social media accounts clean of anything like these tweets -- whether he personally saw them as offensive or not, just out of the fear of being cancelled. It makes him seem both stupid as a professional and insensitive as a comedian. And yes, i wasn't comparing him at all to Siriano... i was saying Siriano did it right, and it was something Randy would have known about as it happened before these tweets, i.e. he had no excuse really to think it would be seen as "ok" if anyone was gonna see his tweets, and obviously he is dealing with it the wrong way. I agree there's a problem with gays being prejudice against their own (and I agree transgender is not necessarily their own, so I'm not entirely sure why this is being brought up as if it is), that doesn't mean that gay people might have context to use the T word that wouldn't be as harmful or hateful or dismissive as the intention when a straight person might. It's a generalization that would need specific instances to illuminate and I don't have those, but it was definitely seen as different enough to be notable. I think for some gay people it was used as a term of endearment, reclaimed like f*ggot etc, but obviously is not ok if for no other reason because the gay men saying it weren't "trannies". But Randy wasn't using it that way. Randy's usage was more mean spirited and random. anyway, his tweets are awful and gross and he should have taken them down years ago, and he should be apologizing now. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 09:28 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Ncassidine 09:07 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I think the real turning point in usage was 2014. That's when the debate really exploded in the public sphere, when Laverne Cox made the cover of Time magazine for their "transgender tipping point" story... and when the Tranny Awards changed their name to the Transgender Erotica Awards. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 08:51 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 08:42 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - MockingbirdGirl 09:22 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I think you're right. Before that were a lot of mini battles over usage of the word, mostly between drag performers (who Rainbow is probably emulating) and trans people or trans allied activists. But after the Laverne Cox ascension to American celebrity status, things really took off and changed. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 09:19 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Ncassidine 09:07 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| RuPaul was asked by Mark Maron about the use of the term"tranny" in 2016. This was his response. The drag performer sat down with comedian Marc Maron on his WTF Podcast this week and articulated his thoughts surrounding the language-based controversy, which he has refrained from addressing until now. "When asked whether he is bothered by the word “tranny,” RuPaul responded by saying, “No! I love the word tranny.” Maron then noted that the trans community is offended by the term, to which Ru responded: No, it is not the transsexual community. These are fringe people who are looking for story lines to strengthen their identity as victims. That is what we’re dealing with. It’s not the trans community, because most people who are trans have been through hell and high water and they know — they’ve looked behind the curtain at Oz and went, ‘Oh, this is all a f**king joke. But, some people haven’t... You know, if your idea of happiness has to do with someone else changing what they say, what they do, you are in for a f**king hard-ass road." |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 08:50 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Billhaven 09:19 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| You have to take RuPaul with a grain of salt since he himself is not transsexual and has been frequently criticized by members of the transsexual community over the years for (among other things) his use of the word "tranny." It is to his advantage to characterize his critics as "fringe people." Maybe they are, but I would not take RuPaul's word for it. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 10:36 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Billhaven 09:19 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| I'm not sure being a covid shut--in isn't making me hyper-sensitive, but dragging up the use of a word that was once used and is now considered offensive to malign an extremely creative individual doesn't set well with me. Moreover, the fact that people were praising insurance commercials because a diva who can't give concerts anymore and is now reduced to making one of these offensive attacks on our senses .........it's too much. I hate commercials. I hate insurance commercials even more. I know they give employment to actors, but somewhere someone is racking up a bunch of sold souls. It's a pity that talented people sink to that level, but I KNOW -- They need the WORK. A conundrum, to be sure. I expect to be attacked. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: StageLover 02:23 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Pokernight 10:36 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| The discussion about the Idina Menzel commercial was too much to handle? An attack on our senses? Really? |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 03:52 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - StageLover 02:23 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| That's what you got? Insurance company commercials are an attack on MY senses.....all commercials are. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:01 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Pokernight 03:52 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I'll gladly take the Idina commercial over the new Progressive one where they're singing (badly) "Danny Boy." Ugh. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 11:09 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Pokernight 10:36 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| Moreover, the fact that people were praising insurance commercials because a diva who can't give concerts anymore and is now reduced to making one of these offensive attacks on our senses Yeah, that was me. I said that it was "pretty funny." Sorry for the offending your sensibilities with my effusive praise. Consider yourself "attacked," I guess. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 08:48 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - MockingbirdGirl 11:09 pm EDT 08/18/20 | |
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| The way I look at this is ask the simple question: Does Randy Rainbow hate trans people and minorities? Does his body of work point to degrading them somehow? No. Let's move on from this idiocy. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Ncassidine 08:55 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Zelgo 08:48 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| People don't have to move on. They can unfollow him if they want and encourage other people to do so. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 11:04 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Ncassidine 08:55 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Sure, they can also perform the Dance of the Seven Veils, naked, in a vat of jello. But do you really want to play into the game of divide and conquer? Do you really want to condemn people for something said 10 years ago while trying to be funny because they weren't a "woke" as you imagined you were at that time? If you do, I assure you, when you're done, you will have cancelled everyone around you. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:18 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Zelgo 11:04 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "Do you really want to condemn people for something said 10 years ago while trying to be funny because they weren't as 'woke' as you imagined you were at that time? If you do, I assure you, when you're done, you will have cancelled everyone around you." Not only that, but if they were to be totally honest, some of these people would also have to cancel themselves -- because I'd be willing to bet that at least some of them used the same words before those words were generally considered offensive, even though they may not remember doing so, or do remember but would never admit it. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: peter3053 04:24 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - Michael_Portantiere 02:18 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Quite so. Such extremists tend to have big blind spots about their own failings both past and present. As it said in one of the gospels, "First take the plank out of your own eye before you try to take a splinter out of someone else's." I often remember that before taking a swipe at someone else's apparent weaknesses. It doesn't mean not trying to improve my thoughts and language about, and actions towards, others, but it does act as a force to counter being quick to condemn, or indeed, "cancel". Which reminds me how important theatre has been as a civilizing force - being in a room with characters of different perspectives for two hours, where good playwrights find ways to make us see things one way and then another, and also see the foibles and failings that go with humans who hold those views. Hammerstein held that theatre should send the "big black giant" of the audience out "a nicer giant" than when they came in. South Pacific is a good example of that. I remember how people criticized it for years as being racist, and said it could never be revived, and then when they saw it again, they realized it was completely the reverse. I heard someone say just recently "Oh, how terrible - Liat doesn't even get to speak!" - yes, but not for racist reasons - it's because she doesn't speak English and because the writers needed to dramatize her as different in order to highlight more clearly Cable's failure. Nellie's final breakthrough definitely fulfils Hammerstein's mission of theatre - but there was a while when the show was, effectively, "canceled" because of planks in eyes. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:37 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - tiresome - peter3053 04:24 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| All very well put, peter3053. | |
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