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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:38 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JAllenC3 10:15 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "And if you don't think the use of 'colored people' by white people was a problem 50 or 60 years ago, why is it (and was it) so jarring when Nellie Forbush used it to describe Emile's kids in South Pacific?" The obvious answer is that the word is jarring and offensive when Nellie uses it in SOUTH PACIFIC because of her bigoted, racist attitude when she says it. As you may know, in TALES OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC, the "n" word is used instead. (Nellie doesn't actually speak the word, but Michener tells us that's the way she thinks of Emile's dead wife). Are you saying that the use of "colored people" by the NAACP was perfectly fine because that group named themselves, but was never fine when used by white people -- not even half a century ago? If that's the case, were white people not allowed to speak the full name of the NAACP? Or was it okay for them to use that phrase ONLY in that context? The way I see it, even completely neutral words like "gay," "jew," and "black" can sound very offensive when used as epithets, with the intent to give offense. But I don't think anyone is suggesting those words be banned as well. At lest, not yet.... |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 01:12 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:38 am EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I am still agog that someone does not see that the more formal "colored" is a different category of word than the more slangy "tranny." "Colored" was a preferred, respectful term 75-100 years ago. That is the reason it was used in the musical. Because it was a non-offensive term, Hammerstein used to replace the n-word--which was the term Nellie used in Michner's book. If Nellie has used the n-word, Hammerstein felt the she would have lost much of the audience's sympathy. Just like Rainbow's current situation. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:08 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - whereismikeyfl 01:12 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| ***"Colored" was a preferred, respectful term 75-100 years ago. That is the reason it was used in the musical. Because it was a non-offensive term, Hammerstein used to replace the n-word--which was the term Nellie used in Michner's book. If Nellie has used the n-word, Hammerstein felt the she would have lost much of the audience's sympathy.**** Yes, I'm basically in agreement with that. But also, to clarify here and what I wrote previously: Though I COULD be wrong, I'm almost certain that Nellie doesn't even speak the word "colored" in the published script of SOUTH PACIFIC, and did not speak it in the original Broadway production. When the Lincoln Center Theater production opened, I'm pretty sure I read that the word had appeared in the script at one point, and they decided to reinstate it to make Nellie's reaction more powerful. Going from my memory: After learning that Ngana and Jerome are Emile's children, not Henri's, Nellie is shocked, and what she says to Emile is: "And there mother was....." She doesn't finish the question, so Emile says: "A Polynesian. And she was beautiful Nellie." Also, to repeat: I'm pretty sure that, even in TALES OF THE SOUTH PACIFIC, Nellie does not actually speak the "n" word in dialogue, though we are told that this is the word that comes to her mind when she learns about Emile's children and his deceased wife. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Last Edit: whereismikeyfl 04:28 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 04:25 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 02:08 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I think you are right that she never says the word, but Michner does state that Nellie considered the native people of the island "n******s" like she knew from Little Rock. He is more explicit than the musical that Nellie was disturbed by the idea that a man who touched a n***** would touch her. Michner is out of fashion but Tales of the South Pacific is a wonderful collection of stories that is even more timely today, as it traces how American superimpose the mores of the US on the people of the Pacific. His "wokeness" shows that even if one is born in a time when causal bigotry is accepted, not everyone is a bigot. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 07:52 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - whereismikeyfl 04:25 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| ****I think you are right that she never says the word, but Michner does state that Nellie considered the native people of the island "n******s" like she knew from Little Rock.**** Right, isn't that what I wrote? |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 08:46 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 07:52 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Yup. I was agreeing, but may not have written it clearly enough for it to be clear. I was reading ALL the unread posts which may have colored my tone in responding. I am sorry. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:29 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - whereismikeyfl 08:46 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| NP, and thanks for providing a little more detail about what Michener writes about Nellie's racism. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:32 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 02:08 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Going from my memory: After learning that Ngana and Jerome are Emile's children, not Henri's, Nellie is shocked, and what she says to Emile is: "And there mother was....." She doesn't finish the question, so Emile says: "A Polynesian. And she was beautiful Nellie." Your memory is 100% correct. ;-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:16 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 02:32 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Thanks :-) Come to think of it, I'm sure my memory was aided greatly by the fact that I believe the lines are exactly the same in the 1958 film version. I do not remember what was said in the Glenn Close version, and I certainly don't own that one on video, so I can't check :-) | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 03:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 02:32 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Also, I don't think Emile was married to the mother of his children, except in the film version, where, I suppose, out-of-wedlock children were just a taboo too far. I've always wondered if Emile wants to marry Nellie, or finds her an acceptable woman to marry, because she is white. I don't think he would consciously admit to racism, especially where his children are concerned, but it might be the case that Emile, who would likely have grown up in the 19teens, would acknowledge that there are women you love and women you marry. Perhaps, in Nellie, he has found both. In any case, I hope Emile lives a long life, because I can't imagine Nellie either remaining on the island as a widow or returning to Little Rock with two Polynesian stepchildren in tow. I've always wished that more of SOUTH PACIFIC was about Nellie grappling with the racism that she was taught at home in Little Rock. It would be interesting for the sunny and optimistic heroine to discover the darkness within and actually wrestle with it. And it would have given Hammerstein an opportunity to write some substantial conversations/lyrics for Nellie with characters other than Emile. It's interesting to me that, although contemporary productions almost always cast minority actors in the ensemble, Rodgers and Hammerstein didn't create any characters here who are specifically African-American. Surely there must be some black sailors or marines or even nurses on this island and surely it would be very interesting for Nellie to actually talk to someone of color and have a real conversation. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 03:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "Also, I don't think Emile was married to the mother of his children, except in the film version, where, I suppose, out-of-wedlock children were just a taboo too far." Actually, I think even in the movie version of the musical, in the scene where Captain Brackett and Harbison are telling Cable about Emile, Brackett still says only that Emile lived with a Polynesian woman for years, and also that he had two children by her. But he doesn't say they were married, and I don't believe we're supposed to think they were. So again, it was my mistake in referring to her as "Emile's deceased wife." "I've always wished that more of SOUTH PACIFIC was about Nellie grappling with the racism that she was taught at home in Little Rock." I understand why you feel that way, but I really think there's enough of that content in the musical as written to make the point very well. First there's the final scene of Act I, in which Nellie becomes so upset to learn of Emile's two half-Polynesian children that (as played in the movie) she becomes nearly hysterical with weeping and runs away. And then there's the very powerful scene with Cable and Emile, just before "You've Got to Be Taught." And of course, in that song, Cable very pointedly and succinctly states the tragic truth about racism and bigotry. To have put any more explicit discussion of racism in the show might have seemed too didactic or slege-hammerish, and perhaps might even been less effective for that reason. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 08:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 04:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I agree, in principle, with what you're saying, but the heavy lifting of considering racism is handled by the men here. And I guess what I'm wishing is that Nellie herself had more of an arc to play out with regard to that. Her perspective is completely different from that of the men and I'd be interested in more of her journey. She goes from being horrified that Emile would have half-Polynesian children to making the decision to join this family as a wife and mother to those same children. The mother role is even one she takes up before Emile even returns from his mission...before she even knows if he's still alive. So...how does she do that? What's going on in her head? What does she have to do to make that leap and love those children? I know...it would all be too much and the show would sink under the weight, but Nellie has, arguably, the most interesting and relatable character arc of the Rodgers and Hammerstein heroines and we don't get to see very much of how she gets from point A to point C. She seems to make this journey almost completely on her own. There's not even a Carrie Pipperidge/Ado Annie best friend character for her to talk over her feelings. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:49 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 08:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| JereNYC, you make some very good points here. This is what I think Hammerstein was going for: The audience falls in love with Nellie over the course of Act I, and we are meant to be shocked when her racism comes to the fore at the end of the act. But, in the Act II scene with Cable and Emile, after "Honey Bun," we can hear from what little she says to Emile on the subject that Nellie is terribly conflicted about her racism, and she really stumbles when she tries to explain it it. ("This is born in me.") When she learns very late in the show that Emile has put himself in mortal danger to go on that mission with Cable, and then when she learns that Cable has been killed, all of that is more than enough to bring her quickly to the realization of how foolish and nonsensical her racist feelings are ("What piffle! What a pinhead I was!") BY THE WAY, there is a huge complication here. It has often been pointed out that Nellie's shocked reaction to learning about Emile's children and their dead mother is not only because the children are half-Polynesian, but because Emile has not previously told her that he has any children at all. He has already proposed to her WITHOUT HAVING TOLD HER that he has two children living with him. Many people rightly consider this a major flaw in the book, especially in terms of how the audience is supposed to feel about Emile. And the thing is, I think it could have been fixed or at least finessed by not having Emile actually propose to Nellie ("Will you marry me?") before he tells her about his children. P.S. I realize that the word "pinhead" is now rightly considered offensive, I'm just quoting the libretto as written :-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:44 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 08:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I think Nellie's journey is very clear. I think she takes up the mother role precisely because she doesn't know if he will return. She herself says when asked by Emile that she thinks his children are sweet. She can't get over Emile's involvement with their mother. But then she learns that Emile has gone behind enemy lines, risking his life for the things that the United States is fighting for, and that Cable is dead. And she knows what Cable told her about his inability to marry Liat even though he loves her. And then, finally, Bloody Mary and Liat come to her. Sometimes less is more, and I'm not sure what Nellie could say or sing that she doesn't say or sing that wouldn't seem simplistic and overly explanatory. I think they got it right, even though, like many older musicals, it's a bit odd that certain things don't get sung about. It's very odd that Nellie's only major singing in act two is "Honey Bun." But I think her brief "Some Enchanted Evening" reprise along with what she says in that scene and other scenes make her journey clear, and we feel it more deeply because she doesn't spell it out for us. Sometimes you don't fully appreciate someone until you lose that person or, fortunately for Nellie, almost lose that person. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:56 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 10:44 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "I think Nellie's journey is very clear. I think she takes up the mother role precisely because she doesn't know if he will return. She herself says when asked by Emile that she thinks his children are sweet. She can't get over Emile's involvement with their mother. But then she learns that Emile has gone behind enemy lines, risking his life for the things that the United States is fighting for, and that Cable is dead. And she knows what Cable told her about his inability to marry Liat even though he loves her. And then, finally, Bloody Mary and Liat come to her. Sometimes less is more." Very well expressed, thank you. "I think they got it right, even though, like many older musicals, it's a bit odd that certain things don't get sung about. It's very odd that Nellie's only major singing in act two is 'Honey Bun.' But I think her brief 'Some Enchanted Evening' reprise along with what she says in that scene and other scenes make her journey clear, and we feel it more deeply because she doesn't spell it out for us." Yes, but also, one could argue that Nellie's brief reprise of "Some Enchanted Evening" is all the more powerful BECAUSE she hasn't previously sung anything serious in Act II -- not to mention the fact that this is the first and only time that we hear her sing the main section of that beautiful song, not till about 12 minutes or so before the show ends. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:57 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:56 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| I agree. What I perhaps should have said is that if South Pacific were written nowadays, we'd probably get a show in which Nellie sang more explicitly and directly about her change of feelings. And that's why it may seem odd to us that she doesn't. But as I said (and you clearly agree), sometimes less is more. (And at three hours, including intermission, in performance, there's already plenty of more in South Pacific.) | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:22 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 02:57 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| "What I perhaps should have said is that if South Pacific were written nowadays, we'd probably get a show in which Nellie sang more explicitly and directly about her change of feelings. And that's why it may seem odd to us that she doesn't. But as I said (and you clearly agree), sometimes less is more. (And at three hours, including intermission, in performance, there's already plenty of more in South Pacific.)" Right. And specifically, of course, in addition to the sections of the script that are concerned with Nellie's racism, there are also the scenes involving other characters that deal with that, not to mention the brief but extremely powerful song "You've Got to Be Taught." I think that, all told, there's enough content in the show directly addressing racism that, if there were more, it really might have seemed heavy-handed. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:59 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 02:57 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| (And at three hours, including intermission, in performance, there's already plenty of more in South Pacific.) They could have started by cutting Billis and that whole subplot...:-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:31 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 06:59 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| "They could have started by cutting Billis and that whole subplot... :-) " Even though I played Billis in high school, I agree that his is the most poorly written role in the show by far, ESPECIALLY all the time they spend on that long, involved, silly plot point where he creates a military diversion by falling out of a plane. (They spent EVEN MORE time on that in the movie version, and actually depicted it, presumably for the sake of humor, but I don't find it funny AT ALL). I think it's a great tribute to Danny Burstein that he was able to make the character bearable and at least mildly amusing, though I do think there were pretty big cuts in the particular scene where the incident referenced above is recounted. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:37 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 12:31 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| Agreed - obviously Billis is supposed to be the "comic" character - but he's just not funny. Also, if we're going to look at issues of prejudice and stereotype, etc, his seeming obsession with the whole boar's tooth ceremony stuff fits right in. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:20 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 03:37 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| "Agreed - obviously Billis is supposed to be the 'comic' character - but he's just not funny. " Right. I certainly understand why they tried to get some comic relief into Act II, and specifically into that scene just before we learn of Cable's fate, but I agree with you, the Billis stuff is just not funny. "If we're going to look at issues of prejudice and stereotype, etc, his seeming obsession with the whole boar's tooth ceremony stuff fits right in. Well, unless I misunderstand you, I'm not sure I agree with that. It seems pretty clear to me tha Billis is obsessed with that ceremony for two reasons: (1) the boar's teeth are apparently very valuable, if you can get your hands on one, and he's all about money; (2) we're told that the ceremony involves women dancing "with just skirts on," and that's another thing Billis is very interested in. I just doubled checked and the stuff about the boar's tooth ceremony is from Michener. I assume he provided an accurate description of it, which was then referenced in the musical. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:32 pm EDT 08/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 04:20 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| Understood, and I agree with what you say about the lure of the money and the girls. But I also can't help but feel a little whiff of "native islanders doing their stereotypical stuff" in there as well. It's not so much that I'm blaming Michener or Hammerstein for that - it's just that it adds a bit more skeeviness to Billis that I'm not sure is always considered. Not that he's any worse than the rest of them, lol. ;-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 11:18 pm EDT 08/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 10:32 pm EDT 08/22/20 | |
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| I read your first sentence and said "Wait, WUT??" And then "Oh, it's the South Pacific fork of this thread." |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 04:59 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 04:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| To have put any more explicit discussion of racism in the show might have seemed too didactic or slege-hammerish, and perhaps might even been less effective for that reason. I'd agree. Oscar-Hammerish is not sledge-hammerish (even if he did have important socio/political points to make). ;-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 07:40 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 04:59 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "I'd agree. Oscar-Hammerish is not sledge-hammerish (even if he did have important socio/political points to make). ;-)" Yes. I would say that those who were very vocal about their hatred of "You've Got to be Taught" may well have felt the message of the song was laid on with a sledge-hammer, though I assume the only people felt that way hated that message more than the style in which it was delivered :-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 07:40 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I once had a very odd but interesting conversation about "Carefully Taught" with a small group of high school students I was teaching. Some of them were saying they felt the song was racist, and I realize that they were hearing the lyric in the opposite way that it was intended, It makes me wonder how many other people have misconstrued the meaning of the song. It all comes down to syntax. Is the lyric "you've GOT to be taught" or is it "you've got to be TAUGHT"? Obviously in context, Hammerstein was going for the latter choice - that racism is taught. But the kids were hearing the "got" as an imperative - as if Cable were advocating being taught that way (you've GOT to be taught to do this). It was the first time I realized the lyric could indeed be heard that way. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:42 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 09:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| ****I once had a very odd but interesting conversation about "Carefully Taught" with a small group of high school students I was teaching. Some of them were saying they felt the song was racist, and I realize that they were hearing the lyric in the opposite way that it was intended, It makes me wonder how many other people have misconstrued the meaning of the song. It all comes down to syntax. Is the lyric "you've GOT to be taught" or is it "you've got to be TAUGHT"? Obviously in context, Hammerstein was going for the latter choice - that racism is taught. But the kids were hearing the "got" as an imperative - as if Cable were advocating being taught that way (you've GOT to be taught to do this). It was the first time I realized the lyric could indeed be heard that way.**** That's fascinating. Of course, given the way the lyrics are set to the music, one could say that the words "got" and "taught" are given equal emphasis, so there's really no help there if you feel it's necessary to stress "taught" over "got" (and I understand why you feel that way). My first reaction was that anyone would have to be pretty dense to interpret the song as pro- rather than anti- bigotry, though arguably it might at least partly depend on whether or not the song is experienced in the context of the show. (How did your students experience it?) That said, I remember that when I was very young, there was a public service TV commercial that used a very lovely, lyrical, wistful recording of "Carefully Taught" as sung by a female voice, played behind footage of children of all races playing together, to make the anti-bigotry point. In that case, I had no trouble immediately understanding the meaning of the song outside of the context of SOUTH PACIFIC, though of course I would say the footage and the context of the commercial itself helped greatly. Hey -- I just looked for the commercial on YouTube, and here it is! It was for the NYC Commission on Human Rights. |
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| Link | "You've Got to be Taught" -- NYC Commission on Human Rights TV commercial, 1970 |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 11:07 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 09:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| A lot of people who hear the song out of context or read the lyrics misunderstand the intent. I have had to explain it many times to young people who assume this song was in favor of "careful teaching." In part it is because they recognize that the music is from "the old days" and they know that there bigotry was pervasive then---so they assume advocating for prejudice would have been acceptable. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:12 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - whereismikeyfl 11:07 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| *****A lot of people who hear the song out of context or read the lyrics misunderstand the intent. I have had to explain it many times to young people who assume this song was in favor of "careful teaching." In part it is because they recognize that the music is from "the old days" and they know that there bigotry was pervasive then---so they assume advocating for prejudice would have been acceptable.***** I do understand that point, but on the other hand, I would think that many bigoted, racist people don't view their own feelings as "hatred" or "fear." I would hope that the use of those words in "Carefully Taught," and also phrases like "It's got to be drummed in your dear little ear," would make it very clear that the song is meant to be bitterly ironic, that having it "drummed in your dear little ear" that you need to "hate all the people your relatives hate" is being condemned rather than advocated. That said, I have heard the opinion expressed that many young people, in particular, have trouble understanding irony. I'm not sure why this should be true, but maybe it is, and maybe that's a major part of the problem here. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:47 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 12:12 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| That said, I have heard the opinion expressed that many young people, in particular, have trouble understanding irony. Two words - Alanis. Morissette. ;-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 04:10 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 03:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| Did you see the Bartlett Sher production? Although there were Black sailors in the company, they were often kept distinctly separate from the white sailors, even in choreographed numbers. You can actually see it in this production photo. | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:49 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 03:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "Surely there must be some black sailors or marines or even nurses on this island and surely it would be very interesting for Nellie to actually talk to someone of color and have a real conversation." There wouldn't have been. The American military was still strictly segregated. I believe that in Michener, it's explicitly stated that Emile never married the mother of his children. In the musical, it's strongly implied. Brackett says that Emile "lived with a Polynesian woman for five years." |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:22 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 03:49 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| ***I believe that in Michener, it's explicitly stated that Emile never married the mother of his children. In the musical, it's strongly implied. Brackett says that Emile "lived with a Polynesian woman for five years."*** Yes, I apologize. Above, I referred to the Polynesian mother of Emile's children as his "deceased wife," but I agree it's made pretty clear in the musical that they were not married. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:01 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 03:49 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "There wouldn't have been. The American military was still strictly segregated." I didn't realize the segregation extended to field hospitals as well. I assumed that black troops might be stationed on this part of the island and white on that part of the island, never intentionally to mix. But it wouldn't really have made sense to have two different hospital set ups with two different medical staffs. And I'd have thought that Nellie, as a nurse, might be right on the only spot where actual interaction with black service members might be possible. At the time, would doctors or nurses in a field hospital, like the one where Nellie and her colleagues work, actually refuse to treat non-white service members who might be brought in? Maybe, what I really mean is COULD they have done so? Would the military brass just allow soldiers or sailors or marines to die, simply because they were black and the hospital staff was white? |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:24 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 04:01 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| In South Pacific, the troops on the island have seen no fighting. It's only late in the second act that they are about to be actively involved in combat for the first time. So unless there was an accident or an outbreak of a fatal disease or something like that, no one was in danger of dying. Doing a search, I came across this article, which does suggest some answers to your questions, although I can't swear that it's entirely accurate. But at least it's not wikipedia. :) And it does align with what I'm finding in a few other articles I've read or skimmed that came up in a duckduckgo search on segregation in the u.s. military world war ii. |
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| Link | Black soldiers in World War II |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 07:55 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 04:24 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| That was really interesting...thanks for finding that. The treatment of black service members in WWII was an embarrassment to the country. | |
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