Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 08:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 04:35 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I agree, in principle, with what you're saying, but the heavy lifting of considering racism is handled by the men here. And I guess what I'm wishing is that Nellie herself had more of an arc to play out with regard to that. Her perspective is completely different from that of the men and I'd be interested in more of her journey. She goes from being horrified that Emile would have half-Polynesian children to making the decision to join this family as a wife and mother to those same children. The mother role is even one she takes up before Emile even returns from his mission...before she even knows if he's still alive. So...how does she do that? What's going on in her head? What does she have to do to make that leap and love those children? I know...it would all be too much and the show would sink under the weight, but Nellie has, arguably, the most interesting and relatable character arc of the Rodgers and Hammerstein heroines and we don't get to see very much of how she gets from point A to point C. She seems to make this journey almost completely on her own. There's not even a Carrie Pipperidge/Ado Annie best friend character for her to talk over her feelings. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:49 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 08:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| JereNYC, you make some very good points here. This is what I think Hammerstein was going for: The audience falls in love with Nellie over the course of Act I, and we are meant to be shocked when her racism comes to the fore at the end of the act. But, in the Act II scene with Cable and Emile, after "Honey Bun," we can hear from what little she says to Emile on the subject that Nellie is terribly conflicted about her racism, and she really stumbles when she tries to explain it it. ("This is born in me.") When she learns very late in the show that Emile has put himself in mortal danger to go on that mission with Cable, and then when she learns that Cable has been killed, all of that is more than enough to bring her quickly to the realization of how foolish and nonsensical her racist feelings are ("What piffle! What a pinhead I was!") BY THE WAY, there is a huge complication here. It has often been pointed out that Nellie's shocked reaction to learning about Emile's children and their dead mother is not only because the children are half-Polynesian, but because Emile has not previously told her that he has any children at all. He has already proposed to her WITHOUT HAVING TOLD HER that he has two children living with him. Many people rightly consider this a major flaw in the book, especially in terms of how the audience is supposed to feel about Emile. And the thing is, I think it could have been fixed or at least finessed by not having Emile actually propose to Nellie ("Will you marry me?") before he tells her about his children. P.S. I realize that the word "pinhead" is now rightly considered offensive, I'm just quoting the libretto as written :-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:44 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - JereNYC 08:06 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| I think Nellie's journey is very clear. I think she takes up the mother role precisely because she doesn't know if he will return. She herself says when asked by Emile that she thinks his children are sweet. She can't get over Emile's involvement with their mother. But then she learns that Emile has gone behind enemy lines, risking his life for the things that the United States is fighting for, and that Cable is dead. And she knows what Cable told her about his inability to marry Liat even though he loves her. And then, finally, Bloody Mary and Liat come to her. Sometimes less is more, and I'm not sure what Nellie could say or sing that she doesn't say or sing that wouldn't seem simplistic and overly explanatory. I think they got it right, even though, like many older musicals, it's a bit odd that certain things don't get sung about. It's very odd that Nellie's only major singing in act two is "Honey Bun." But I think her brief "Some Enchanted Evening" reprise along with what she says in that scene and other scenes make her journey clear, and we feel it more deeply because she doesn't spell it out for us. Sometimes you don't fully appreciate someone until you lose that person or, fortunately for Nellie, almost lose that person. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:56 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 10:44 pm EDT 08/19/20 | |
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| "I think Nellie's journey is very clear. I think she takes up the mother role precisely because she doesn't know if he will return. She herself says when asked by Emile that she thinks his children are sweet. She can't get over Emile's involvement with their mother. But then she learns that Emile has gone behind enemy lines, risking his life for the things that the United States is fighting for, and that Cable is dead. And she knows what Cable told her about his inability to marry Liat even though he loves her. And then, finally, Bloody Mary and Liat come to her. Sometimes less is more." Very well expressed, thank you. "I think they got it right, even though, like many older musicals, it's a bit odd that certain things don't get sung about. It's very odd that Nellie's only major singing in act two is 'Honey Bun.' But I think her brief 'Some Enchanted Evening' reprise along with what she says in that scene and other scenes make her journey clear, and we feel it more deeply because she doesn't spell it out for us." Yes, but also, one could argue that Nellie's brief reprise of "Some Enchanted Evening" is all the more powerful BECAUSE she hasn't previously sung anything serious in Act II -- not to mention the fact that this is the first and only time that we hear her sing the main section of that beautiful song, not till about 12 minutes or so before the show ends. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:57 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 10:56 am EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| I agree. What I perhaps should have said is that if South Pacific were written nowadays, we'd probably get a show in which Nellie sang more explicitly and directly about her change of feelings. And that's why it may seem odd to us that she doesn't. But as I said (and you clearly agree), sometimes less is more. (And at three hours, including intermission, in performance, there's already plenty of more in South Pacific.) | |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:22 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 02:57 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| "What I perhaps should have said is that if South Pacific were written nowadays, we'd probably get a show in which Nellie sang more explicitly and directly about her change of feelings. And that's why it may seem odd to us that she doesn't. But as I said (and you clearly agree), sometimes less is more. (And at three hours, including intermission, in performance, there's already plenty of more in South Pacific.)" Right. And specifically, of course, in addition to the sections of the script that are concerned with Nellie's racism, there are also the scenes involving other characters that deal with that, not to mention the brief but extremely powerful song "You've Got to Be Taught." I think that, all told, there's enough content in the show directly addressing racism that, if there were more, it really might have seemed heavy-handed. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:59 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - AlanScott 02:57 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| (And at three hours, including intermission, in performance, there's already plenty of more in South Pacific.) They could have started by cutting Billis and that whole subplot...:-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:31 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 06:59 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
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| "They could have started by cutting Billis and that whole subplot... :-) " Even though I played Billis in high school, I agree that his is the most poorly written role in the show by far, ESPECIALLY all the time they spend on that long, involved, silly plot point where he creates a military diversion by falling out of a plane. (They spent EVEN MORE time on that in the movie version, and actually depicted it, presumably for the sake of humor, but I don't find it funny AT ALL). I think it's a great tribute to Danny Burstein that he was able to make the character bearable and at least mildly amusing, though I do think there were pretty big cuts in the particular scene where the incident referenced above is recounted. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 03:37 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 12:31 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| Agreed - obviously Billis is supposed to be the "comic" character - but he's just not funny. Also, if we're going to look at issues of prejudice and stereotype, etc, his seeming obsession with the whole boar's tooth ceremony stuff fits right in. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:20 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 03:37 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| "Agreed - obviously Billis is supposed to be the 'comic' character - but he's just not funny. " Right. I certainly understand why they tried to get some comic relief into Act II, and specifically into that scene just before we learn of Cable's fate, but I agree with you, the Billis stuff is just not funny. "If we're going to look at issues of prejudice and stereotype, etc, his seeming obsession with the whole boar's tooth ceremony stuff fits right in. Well, unless I misunderstand you, I'm not sure I agree with that. It seems pretty clear to me tha Billis is obsessed with that ceremony for two reasons: (1) the boar's teeth are apparently very valuable, if you can get your hands on one, and he's all about money; (2) we're told that the ceremony involves women dancing "with just skirts on," and that's another thing Billis is very interested in. I just doubled checked and the stuff about the boar's tooth ceremony is from Michener. I assume he provided an accurate description of it, which was then referenced in the musical. |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:32 pm EDT 08/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Michael_Portantiere 04:20 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
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| Understood, and I agree with what you say about the lure of the money and the girls. But I also can't help but feel a little whiff of "native islanders doing their stereotypical stuff" in there as well. It's not so much that I'm blaming Michener or Hammerstein for that - it's just that it adds a bit more skeeviness to Billis that I'm not sure is always considered. Not that he's any worse than the rest of them, lol. ;-) |
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| re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 11:18 pm EDT 08/22/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Randy Rainbow’s old, racist, and transphobic tweets resurface - Chromolume 10:32 pm EDT 08/22/20 | |
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| I read your first sentence and said "Wait, WUT??" And then "Oh, it's the South Pacific fork of this thread." |
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