Threaded Order Chronological Order
| SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Last Edit: EvFoDr 02:55 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 02:53 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| You know how some musicals get talked about over and over and some just seem to fade away? This one seems to be in the latter category, despite a healhy run, especially for the time. I know the synposis and looked up the main productions. I see the original ran three years on Broadway and a 1989 revival appears to have run less then a month. Ouch. I am curious what ATC'ers remember. What was the feeling at the time? How did this fit into the era in which it was introduced? I expect, and fine by me, that the conversation might move in directions that people were perhaps not thinking or talking about much at the time. A civil war era story that seems to be sympathetic towards the Southern states/people/Confederacy. But I feel like people were NOT talking about Shenandoah long before our current reckoning with the Confederacy and the slave south. I flipped through the cast list and was surprised that aside from John Cullum and Craig Lucas (in the ensemble) I have never heard of anyone else in terms of them having a signifcant Broadway credit before or after this show. I'd also never heard of anyone on the creative team. I guess this has just been a huge gap in my theatre knowledge. Honestly I consider myself very knowledgeable. Friends call me the encyclopedia of musical theatre. LOL. I guess you don't know about that you didn't learn about. I was in a kid's summer camp theatre revue in the mid 80's (I was around 11) and we sang the song Freedom. I recently came across some photos from that production and it prompted me to look the song up. I didn't even know it was from Shenandoah! I also listened to the OBCR today for the first time and recognized We Make A Beautiful Pair from the Alice/Emily Duets album--but again never knew what show it was from. And to top it all off I always thought the song Shenandoah was FROM this musical, when in fact it is just an American folk song. Wow! I was chuckling at how clueless I was about this show. Look forward to hearing some of your perspective. |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 06:50 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 02:53 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| At the time, the show was seen as very derivative. Most of the songs seem to be modeled on other songs from classic musicals and the emotional manipulation of the libretto is even more obvious than most musicals. This why even though the songs individually make strong impressions, the whole is less satisfying. Listening to the cast album is a much better way to experience this show than seeing a production. |
|
| reply to this message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: theatreguy40 06:32 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 02:53 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| My husband did the 1st National Tour with both John Cullum and then John Raitt as well as several summer packages at the MUNY and Starlight Theatres... I got to see the show many times. It was always very affecting and audiences really ate it up. I've also directed the show and again audiences loved it. But that was way back in the 1970's... I THINK it would do well today. Trouble is that it is incredibly "male" dominated as far as casting. Really only 2 women in the show. In fact, in the National Tour the ONLY women were the ones playing Jenny and Anne. Plus one female to understudy both roles. in the Church scenes - the congregation faced upstage so they had Men dressed as Townswomen!! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: portenopete 06:03 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 02:53 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| As it happens, Shenandoah was my first professional show (as a spectator). I was 10 years old and saw a summer stock tour starring John Raitt at the Ogunquit Playhouse in 1976. Raitt sang magnificently (listen to the link below) and it certainly captivated my ten year old soul. The fact that there were two children in it made it more accessible and the "Next to Lovin' I Like Fighting'" number with the Anderson sons roughhousing was incredibly sexy for a nascent homosexual! I saw Cullum in the 1990 revival, which was a Canadian production that had headlined Hal Linden in Toronto but he opted not to go to Broadway with the entirely Canadian cast (including a young Tom Cavanagh from TV's Ed). It was serviceable. Played at the (then-) Virginia. |
|
| Link | John Raitt singing "Meditation". |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 12:37 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - portenopete 06:03 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| I am learning so much from this thread. Can you help me understand how the touring worked back then? A show that opened on Broadway in January 1975 (And ran through most of 1977) was already available for licensing at a major summer stock venue like Ogunquit by 1976? I would think that would be held back while the show was on Broadway and/or held back in favor of a Boston tour stop. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 02:38 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:32 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 12:37 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
|
|
|
| It was unusual (although not quite unheard of) for there to have been a summer stock tour of a musical running on Broadway when that 1976 stock tour with Raitt went out. I wondered if perhaps they made it available for stock because business was going downhill on Broadway and perhaps they thought it would close by June or July but it was doing better in the spring of 1976 than it had been in the spring of 1975. The television commercials and perhaps word of mouth helped. Still, it never did really great business on Broadway. When Variety did its 1977-1978 roundup of hits and flops, Shenandoah (months after it had closed) was listed, by itself, under "Status Still Not Clarified." In the 1978-1979 roundup, it was listed under Failures. But I guess it did eventually pay off and provide a small profit to the investors, or at least that's what Steven Suskin says in More Opening Nights on Broadway. He was an investor. I'm not sure that any other source lists it as having finally paid off. I think it was probably the first Broadway musical to run 1,000 performances without having paid off by the time it closed. Raitt went out with a bus-and-truck tour of Shenandoah in the fall of 1976 so I guess the stock tour was preparation for that, or perhaps a test of sorts. A first-class tour did not go out till the fall of 1977, with Cullum opening it but just playing the first three weeks, and then Raitt replaced him. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 04:45 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - AlanScott 02:32 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
|
|
|
| Thanks Alan. All very fascinating. I am shocked that a show that ran that long, in that time period when we know that shows cost less and it was easier to recoup, did not recoup by closing. There doesn't seem to be anything about this show that screams "expensive to run". In fact I think it was Clive Barnes who said the physical production looked cheap. Interestingly the same thing was said in Times review for the revival. Of course, who knows what was going on behind the scenes. We have no idea what the budget looked like, or how competently it was all managed. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:55 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 04:45 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
|
|
|
| I had long known that Shenandoah had closed at a loss. But I have learned over the last few years that certain shows that I would have thought recouped didn't. For instance, All the Way Home, which I discussed a couple of days ago, didn't even come close. These have been primarily plays because I generally knew about the musicals, but there have been plenty of plays, even going pretty far back, that managed to run long enough that I would have expected them to pay off, but they kind of kept going for months, either barely getting by and thereby not making much profit (and sometimes then losing again what they'd made by running at a loss for periods of time) or doing pretty well for a while but not long enough to quite pay off. I meant to reply to the fairly recent Gemini thread to mention several things, including that it took around two years for it to pay off. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 05:15 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 02:53 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| When the musical Shenandoah was first produced in 1975, the spectre of the Vietnam War still loomed large over American culture. (U.S. troops had only just been withdrawn in 1973.) I imagine that's one big reason why the creatives involved chose to adapt the popular 1965 film of the same title, about an American family inevitably caught up in a war (the U.S. Civil War) they wanted no part of. I think the actual issues involved in the Civil War took a back seat to the war's effect on the family and the implicit evocation of more recent American wars, both in the show itself and in the political and popular discussion about it at the time. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 04:59 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 02:53 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| It's not at all sympathetic to the South -- ir the North -- Charlie wants no part of the war, either for himself or his family. I recommend you see the film Shenandoah with Jimmy Stewart which the musical is based (fairly closely) on. Cullum was wonderful and deserved his Tony. The show is more Rodgers and Hammerstein than Stephen Sondheim which is both its strength and its weakness. It was very popular in community and dinner theaters for several years, but you really need a lead who is equally strong as an actor and singer. I also saw the Ford's Theater production which I don't recall being greatly altered ( And I know the show well, having done it twice) Gary Geld and Peter Udell also wrote the unsuccessful Angel and Purlie - which you may have heard of Philip Rose the producer/director also produced A Raisin in the Sun, The Owl and the Pussycat, Purlie Victorious, Purlie, and Shenandoah. and directed Angel, Purlie, as well as Shenandoah, and several other shows -- I'm sort of surprised you've never heard of him |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Keeping score of Gary Geld & Peter Udell | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:33 am EDT 08/21/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:18 am EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - StageDoorJohnny 04:59 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| I've always been curious about Geld and Udell. They wrote two hits in the 1970s: ''Purlie'' and ''Shenandoah,'' both of which earned them Tony Award nominations (and Udell even won the Tony for co-writing the book to the latter). Cleavon Little and Melba Moore won Tonys for ''Purlie,'' and a 1981 TV adaptation, with Moore, won a CableACE Award, and John Cullum won his first Best Actor in a Musical Tony for ''Shenandoah.'' Both shows have some nifty toe-tapping songs. I especially enjoy ''Walk Him Up the Stairs'' and ''I Got Love'' from ''Purlie,'' as well as ''Why Am I Me?,'' ''Next to Lovin' (I LIke Fightin')'' and ''The Pickers Are Coming'' from ''Shenandoah.'' Geld and Udell wrote one more Broadway show: ''Angel,'' a 1978 musical of ''Look, Homeward Angel,'' that closed after 5 performances. Did that flop cause Geld and Udell to break up? Udell would go on to write two more musicals with Garry Sherman: ''Comin' Uptown'' (1979) and ''Amen Corner'' (1983), but both were short-lived. Does anyone know anything more about Geld and Udell? I couldn't find any footage of them on YouTube, and only about one interview in the N.Y. Times in 1975. They were pop songwriters (''Sealed With a Kiss'') and lamented about getting the brushoff from a number of New York critics. (Anyone catch the 20th anniversary revival of ''Shenandoah'' at Goodspeed in 1994? The cast included Marc Kudisch and James Van Der Beek.) |
|
| Link | N.Y. Times: The 'Shenandoah' Saga by John S. Wilson (1975) |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: Keeping score of Gary Geld & Peter Udell | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:55 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: Keeping score of Gary Geld & Peter Udell - WaymanWong 02:18 am EDT 08/21/20 | |
|
|
|
| Without wanting to get too heavily into the hit/flop discussion, I will just mention that neither Purlie nor Shenandoah had paid off when they closed. The former probably would have if it had not been forced to play in three different theatres during its Broadway run. The costs of the two moves it had to make probably kept it from paying off. I posted elsewhere about the Shenandoah situation. It seems to have paid off eventually, but it took a very long time. And it's not like Sweeney Todd, which took an even longer time to pay off, as Sweeney cost a huge amount (for the time) to produce, and I think it had the highest weekly nut in Broadway history at the time. (Had they closed Sweeney when the original leads left, they would have been wise. They lost a lot that had not yet been distributed by running it four more months.) Shenandoah had a low production cost for the time and had a lowish weekly nut. I don't think it would be accurate to describe either as flops. They were both too popular and ran far too long. But they weren't quite hits either. They were sort-of hits. If they had both just about paid off, I think they could be described as "soft hits," which is a good term, one that I would use for a show like Child's Play, which closed with a very small profit and never played a sold-out week. I suppose that since it seems that Shenandoah eventually paid off, it might be described as a very soft hit. And Purlie might be described as a near-hit. But then some short-lived shows have paid off for one reason or another, sometimes just because of a movie sale. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:20 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - StageDoorJohnny 04:59 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| It's been a while since I've seen the film, but my memory is that it's not sympathetic toward the South. I'm glad you mentioned that. I must admit that I've never seen the show, although I certainly could have. I heard some of the cast recording, and it simply didn't seem good. Which I thought was too bad as it did seem to me like the film might have made a good musical. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: JAllenC3 04:32 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 02:53 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| I never saw the original but I did see the Fords Theatre production in 2006 with Scott Bakula as Charlie Anderson and Andrew Samonsky directed by Jeff Calhoun. I remember enjoying it quite a bit, but the program notes indicate it was restructured from the original production. I also remember conversations in the DC press about how they were trying to make the show relevant during the Iraq war and the protests against it going on at the time. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 03:32 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 02:53 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| At the time, it was a fabulous and moving show - John Cullum was quite brilliant in it. As I recall, it opened the same week as THE WIZ. It's interesting to look at the reviews. In his daily review of THE WIZ, Clive Barnes was very mixed, ultimately disappointed in the show. In his Sunday review, Walter Kerr actively disliked THE WIZ. Meanwhile, for SHENANDOAH, Barnes wrote a very positive review (with a few caveats), but it make it clear you would love the show; in the Sunday paper, Walter Kerr wrote a love letter to SHENANDOAH. SHENANDOAH ran 1,050 performances - a hit. THE WIZ ran 1,672 performances. A smash hit. So much for critics! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| The Variety tallies for Shenandoah and The Wiz | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:03 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - NewtonUK 03:32 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| I just read Barnes's review of Shenandoah, and I would characterize it as mixed leaning toward mildly enthusiastic. Here is Variety's tally of the reviews for Shenandoah: "six moderately approving notices (Collins, WCBS-TV; Godfrey, UPI; Howe, WNBC-TV; Lyons, WCBS; S. Klein, WNEW-TV; Probst, WNBC), two unfavorable (Gottfried, Post; Watt, News), and four mixed (Barnes, Times; Glover, AP; A. Klein, WNYC; Sanders, WABC-TV)." Here is the tally for The Wiz: "nine favorable reviews (Citron, WNYC-TV; Collins, WCBS-TV; Currie, UPI; Glover, AP; Howe, WNBC-TV; A. Klein, WNYC; Probst, WNBC; Sanders, WABC-TV; Watt, News), and three mixed (Barnes, Times; Gottfried, Post; Lyons, WCBS)." I should add that Variety's choices of how to characterize reviews have not always struck me as accurate. For instance, I would say, as I said before, that Barnes's Shenandoah was mixed but leaning toward favorable. On the other hand, I would say that his Wiz review was mixed leaning a bit on the negative side. To simply list them both as mixed, as Variety did, is misleading. But I think the Variety tallies do generally indicate that The Wiz overall received reviews that were probably at least as favorable as those received by Shenandoah. I've also just read Kerr's reviews of both, not included in the Variety tally because his reviews did not appear till the first or sometimes the second Sunday after a show's opening. He certainly did love Shenandoah. The headline given his Wiz review — "'The Wiz' Misses" — makes it sound worse than it was. I would say that it was actually more mixed than negative. I think most people who were already inclined to see the show would not have changed their minds reading his review. He said quite enough nice things that it ended up sounding like it was an entertaining show. Oddly, I think his review, if read through, would have encouraged more people to see The Wiz than Barnes's review did. But then Rex Reed once rightly wrote something like, "Walter Kerr can pan a show and make me want to rush out and see it." |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: StageLover 04:06 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - NewtonUK 03:32 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| It's not a coincidence that both shows a;sp had very effective TV commercials. I especially remember John Cullum is a field singing, "This here land is Anderson land". THE WIZ had "Ease on Down the Road" which really popped. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayLover 03:17 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - EvFoDr 02:53 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| Although I didn't see it on Broadway, I enjoyed a strong production in Long Beach, CA with John Raitt in 1984. The show packs a lot of power and has great dramatic musical numbers for the male lead which Raitt sang beautifully. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 09:27 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - BroadwayLover 03:17 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| When I was an undergraduate at Northwestern, the national tour of Shenandoah starring Cullum came to Chicago and played the Arie Crown. Those of you who knew the Loop theatres of that era (mid to late 70s), may recall that the Arie Crown was a humongous barn of a theatre, part of McCormick Place, a huge convention center (it's where the tour of Sweeney Todd with Lansbury and Hearn also played, among many others). One Saturday or Sunday (I don't remember which), I screwed up my courage and took the El from Evanston to the stop closest to McCormick Place (about a mile or so walk nonetheless) and bought a ticket in the farthest reaches of the balcony (all I could afford). I'd owned the LP for some time and had seen the film with my parents when it came out. I could barely see the faces of the actors, but Cullum's voice and presence were definitive--I remember some of his soliloquies to this day with a clarity I don't necessarily have about some productions I've seen in more recent years! I don't recall all that much about the rest of the cast or the production as a whole (not their fault--it is truly a vehicle for Charlie Anderson), but I became a fan of Cullum's for a lifetime. And the last scene with the singing of the "hymn" ("Pass the Cross to Me") with the, yes, shamelessly manipulative ending (the same as in the film), did indeed move me to tears--but I didn't feel "used," simply happy and touched. I don't think it could easily be revived today--though I agree with those posters who describe it as being equally critical of the South and the North in the making of war--I think it was a show of its time. But in its time, if you were really just starting your career as an audience member of big, professional Broadway-based shows, it was deeply satisfying. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: Snowgrace 06:52 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - BroadwayLover 03:17 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| Saw it on Broadway when I was 10 & LOVED it...I remember John Cullum letting me, having dropped off a letter to him, come meet him backstage & he was so, so gracious! Maureen Silliman went on to do lots of work, & Donna Theodore, the other principal female cast member, did quite a bit of other work around that time...I think my Dad & I saw her in one of the wonderful musicals at Equity Library Theatre. The commercial, of John Cullum singing in a field, was very powerful & aired a LOT. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 12:31 pm EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - Snowgrace 06:52 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| Thanks for the memory! Theodore impressed me immediately on the Freedom track. Before I knew who was singing, both Ann Crumb and Streisand came to mind. Something about the "throb" in her tone. I felt for sure it must be the younger version of some actress who became a Broadway mainstay. But alas, I had never heard of her and she has no other credits on IBDB. ' |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 12:35 am EDT 08/21/20 | |
| In reply to: re: SHENANDOAH: Thoughts and Memories? - Snowgrace 06:52 pm EDT 08/20/20 | |
|
|
|
| I think other posters covered most of what I would have said. Saw it in Boston, I believe pre Broadway. I took my parents. By this time I was already an experienced theater goer and more. We all liked the show, it was decently crafted and had that oh so fantastic part for its male lead which Cullum filled magnificently. It was of its time, the anti war sentiment still in the air moved the audiences in ways that don't as much today. Listening to the cast album is a pleasant experience, there are a number of good old fashioned show tunes. Geld and Udell were modestly talented as a team but Pulie continues to resonate whereas Shendoah does not. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.071855 seconds.