Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:59 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - manchurch03104 07:41 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| And what about Doctorow, who of course, created the story and many of the characters? How about McNally? How about Flaherty's music? ALL summarily dismissed as "classic white privilege?" | |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 07:56 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - Chromolume 08:59 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| I'm talking about Ahren's statement itself, not the show. That statement comes 100% from a place of white privilege. Ask any person of color how much progress this country has made in 400 years. | |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: huskyital (huskyital@yahoo.com) 02:31 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - manchurch03104 07:56 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| Ridiculous statement......Jackie Robinson was the first African American to make it to major sports. How many now are in baseball, football and basketball? We've come a long way. Obama would not have been elected fifty years ago. Yes there is still much that we can do but we have made a hell of a lot of progress from even 50 years ago. Martin Luther King did not march for nothing. | |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: showtunesoprano 12:17 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - manchurch03104 07:56 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| Is it "white privilege" to be unaware of violence being perpetrated on Black Americans by law enforcement, and vigilantes? I suppose, though I would call it something like "white blindness" or "white ignorance" rather than "white privilege." What Ahrens was saying was that in 1998, white Americans were not aware of this kind of treatment. Therefor, the show depicted a time in the past, with characters/actions that no longer seemed present. In the past 20 years, the advent of cell phones/cameras and social media has shown us that, in fact, "this will happen again, and again, and again" and is still happening. It makes the show more relevant, not less. I was listening to the cast album while driving a few years ago after one of these horrific incidents, and almost had to pull the car over because it was devastating to hear that lyric. | |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 02:41 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - showtunesoprano 12:17 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| The "blindness" is the privilege. A black person cannot be blind in a similar way without facing danger. A white person faces no danger if he or she is blind--they have the privilege of ignoring certain realities. I think your judgement of Ahrens is much more harsh than calling her comments "classic white privilege." If she indeed "was saying was that in 1998, white Americans were not aware of this kind of treatment. Therefor, the show depicted a time in the past, with characters/actions that no longer seemed present," then she is stating that her work was for white audiences and excluded the perspective of black people. If you really believe that, it is a pretty awful accusation. I am more generous and think it was only classic white privilege and not something more disturbing. |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: showtunesoprano 04:19 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - whereismikeyfl 02:41 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| I said no such thing, and she said no such thing. Do not put words in our mouths. I was merely trying to understand/interpret how her statement was "classic white privilege" since that accusation did not seem valid to me. But I can agree that blindness=privilege, so I understand it now. And I believe I expanded on her original statement quite accurately, considering I did watch the original source. | |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Last Edit: whereismikeyfl 07:58 am EDT 08/28/20 | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 07:57 am EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - showtunesoprano 04:19 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: portenopete 11:53 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - manchurch03104 07:56 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| I've been seeing a LOT of black Republicans at the RNCC this week. I suspect if I asked them they'd say America has made HUGE strides forward. Just because our politics don't align, are their voices unworthy of being unheard? Without for aa second forgetting that there is still so much work to do, it's idiotic to say that Emancipation and the Civil Rights Act did nothing to further the cause of black people in American society. The fact that amongst much of the BIPOC academic mafia and cognoscenti, one of the main topics of discussion is micro aggression. Something tells me that if the brave young people who did the sit-ins at lunch counters and faced off against the goons on the other side of the Edmund Pettus Bridge had the choice, they'd've been just fine with micro aggressions. As a middle-aged gay, I know that my "lifestyle" was criminal until quite recently. I grew up at the tail end of the era where you worried that if you were drinking in a bar you might get raided and arrested. Even more likely if you were at a bath house. If you "read queer" you were open season for bullying and assault. You learned to chuckle at the homophobia you'd encounter on TV and at the movies. To say things haven't improved is just stupid and illogical. America was on the cusp of electing a married, gay president this year. We're collectively learning that the struggle for understanding and accepting one another is an ongoing, probably never-ending one. . |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:02 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - portenopete 11:53 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| "Something tells me that if the brave young people who did the sit-ins at lunch counters and faced off against the goons on the other side of the Edmund Pettus Bridge had the choice, they'd've been just fine with micro aggressions." But that thought is exactly the problem. White people and politicians hiding behind the illusion that these big strokes of progress are enough, that black people know it's better than it used to be when they couldn't vote or could be hung for looking at a white woman or beaten to death for sitting in the wrong seat or tormented for going to school with white people, etc. This movement isn't only about micro aggressions... but pointing out that freedom fighters of the civil rights movement and prior would prefer micro aggressions IS a micro aggression and just perpetuates the notion that things are fine, and that there are no macro aggressions going on now/still/since, when there are countless. |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 08:56 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - manchurch03104 07:56 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| To be clear: Ahrens did NOT say that there were no racial problems in 1998. Saying "we've come a long way in the previous century" doesn't mean there isn't still work to do. | |
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| she's literally not wrong... | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 08:56 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 08:53 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - MockingbirdGirl 08:56 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| But she is nonetheless not "right" because she is missing the point, and that is the sign of her filtered understanding due to her white privilege. Yes, a lot of progress *has* been made since the 1906... that doesn't mean that there's isn't still SO much to do, that what has improved didn't come way too slowly, and that any and everything that happens is still happening in a country built on racism and slavery and a system with that as its foundation. What IS tone deaf about her statement is that the very specific incidents of racism and violence that happen to Coalhouse and Sarah and the reaction of the system and the police could and did happen in 1998 and in the early 90s, as well as today obviously. I wish she had said "in 1998 Ragtime was saying how far we have to come because the same story could have taken place today, and in 2020 it is tragically no different." Had she said the same thing about Dessa Rose (a show taking place during slavery) maybe it would have not sounded like she was unaware of the realities of being black in America. |
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| re: Ragtime... for our time | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:17 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - MockingbirdGirl 08:56 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| and she expressly says that, but it is still an assessment borne of white privilege. that does not discredit her work but it does prompt interest in the perspective of the subject community. | |
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| You can love and appreciate something and still find it problematic | |
| Posted by: HadriansMall 11:37 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Ragtime... for our time - Chromolume 08:59 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| my 2 cents. I’m here for call out culture. | |
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| what is problematic in Ragtime? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:31 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: You can love and appreciate something and still find it problematic - HadriansMall 11:37 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| I'm curious to know the thoughts on this, from anyone. And I don't mean because now looking back people wish a black writer had written it, or the 1/3 of the show show's 3 stories and sets of lead characters that deals with a black experience. I'm curious what, if you didn't know the race of the authors, feels like it shouldn't be there or is a clear result, creatively or in the writing, that not have been written by a black writer. I'm not saying there couldn't be anything... I just want to know what people think there is. |
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| re: what is problematic in Ragtime? | |
| Posted by: BruceinIthaca 08:56 am EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: what is problematic in Ragtime? - Chazwaza 04:31 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| I remember finding the conclusion problematic--the integration of Coalhouse and Sarah's son into the white family. Granted, it was a utopian moment and we need those in our theatre (cf. Jill Dolan's Utopias in Performance), but it range false to me, since it implied that this young boy would be on an equal footing with the Little Boy. I think it would have been more likely that he would be consigned to the kitchen, handed over to another set of "Negroes" (to use the language of the time and the language of the narration) during that time period. That seemed to me to sentimentalize the ongoing racial problems of the US, which were still apparent to the audience in 1988, even if not as focused as they are today. I realize that the future of the adopted son was not spelled out in Doctorow's novel (which I haven't read in 20 years, so if it was spelled out, please correct me), but McNally and Galati, the latter having grown up in the suburbs of Chicago, should have known that this moment, while heart-warming and satisfying for some, was probably not realistic, even in a musical pla, where there is often some "lightening" of the actual conditions for entertainment and artistic effect. | |
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| re: what is problematic in Ragtime? | |
| Posted by: CanadianRyan 07:56 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: what is problematic in Ragtime? - Chazwaza 04:31 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I think an argument could be made that the fact that both prominent black characters in the show (Sarah and Coalhouse) both have to die for any sort of "change" is problematic. There could also be an argument that Mother taking Sarah and Coalhouse Jr. in its "white saviour syndrome" - of course if I recall correctly both of those things happen in the novel, so not necessarily conducive to the play. Although in the book of Wicked Elphaba dies, and they "greenwashed" that for the musical (that's meant to be a joke). Why does the story have to be built around the beating and shooting deaths of black bodies? A similar argument could be made for the fact that in a lot of queer/gay stories the gay character dies. I think there's a term maybe trauma porn that addresses this, and I'm sure I've done not a great job at explaining it... but after reading that's what pinged in my brain. |
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| re: what is problematic in Ragtime? | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 08:47 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 08:40 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: what is problematic in Ragtime? - CanadianRyan 07:56 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| I'm sorry... i can't get behind this. You want to erase the very issue being taken on by the show so that audiences don't have it in mind? Do you think Ragtime normalizes beating and killing black bodies? You are really comparing Ragtime to trauma porn? I'm really lost on how to respond to this. But i appreciate your response. I think there's merit in introducing the potential issue I really think if that's how we are going to look at all past plays, movies and literature, or anything yet to come, we are in trouble. But for what it's worth, Coalhouse blowing himself up in the building is my least favorite part of the story. But i think it makes a very big statement and that statement isn't "let's watch a black man's body explode for change". It's a culmination of the white world coming full force against a black man who wants justice for a crime done and a life lost, and the unraveling of the lie of the American dream and American promise fed to all of us but especially to black people when he and Sarah need to system to work for them just once, and the extent of his rage and need to make his voice heard, to impact SOMETHING in the system set up to drown and ignore and abuse him, vs what's waiting for him if he walks out of the building to the police. It's not glorifying the situation and it's not like we have to watch him murdered by police. Are you implying we cannot have any plays, even ones from before, that do not include racism and abuse of minorities? This is a tricky line. But I don't think the answer is to rewrite the story of Ragtime so that Sarah doesn't die and Coalhouse isn't in a position to take his own life rather than to give it to the police. I also do not see Mother as a "savior" but rather someone coming into her own newly found decency and lack of selfishness, and reflection on the class divide and racial divide. I don't think Mother looks like a hero here, and her first realization that "the help" have lives outside her house and her decision to not let a baby die in a hole does not paint her as some hero either, it paints her as a very stunted woman who is seeing the world a bit more and realizing her own prison as a woman in the patriarchal society she subscribed to fully. I understand why in the optics department it can be seen as "white savior"... but I don't think it's written that way. But perhaps my world view as a white person has kept me from understanding how it is that. I don't know. |
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| re: what is problematic in Ragtime? | |
| Posted by: CanadianRyan 07:55 am EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: what is problematic in Ragtime? - Chazwaza 08:40 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| Again, I’m not saying I agree with those, I’m saying I think that could be people’s complaints... similar to the complaint of white saviourism/whitewashing of the American response in Vietnam that you see in Miss Saigon... I’m not saying that these shows should be rewritten... but if every sincere concern with a show is met with a “that’s silly” argument then really are we listening to the BIPOC voices that we should be right now? Not every opinion needs a devil’s advocate. I’m thinking also of the recent discussion regarding Randy Rainbow’s tweets. |
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| re: what is problematic in Ragtime? | |
| Posted by: showtunesoprano 08:56 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: what is problematic in Ragtime? - Chazwaza 08:40 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| Maybe this is something that has changed in subsequent stagings, but my memory from the 3 times I saw the original production is that Coalhouse IS killed by the police. He does not blow himself up, as your post says. He makes sure that everyone else has left, and is safe, and then opens the doors and the police open fire. | |
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| ha oh dear! | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:07 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: what is problematic in Ragtime? - showtunesoprano 08:56 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| My memory is off then, and I saw the show recently! You're right. So I take that part back. However, police murdering an unarmed black man who is surrendering even is a very real thing... I think there's an argument to be made for not rewriting that either. Especially when the majority of the audience is going to be white, and Coalhouse is a character we love and understand and side with and root for. I could easily see that moment happening with projections flashing of articles about black men in our day being murdered by the police to tie it into the idea that nothing has changed and connect 1904 to today, as the show should do in our minds if not literally. |
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| This is exactly what I said in one of my posts below. | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 05:30 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: what is problematic in Ragtime? - Chazwaza 04:31 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| Yes, The King and I would have been a different (and/or “less problematic”) show had it been written by Eurasians, or The Drowsy Chaperone has it been written by single gay men, or the TV show Northern Exposure if it were written by Indigenous members of the Tingit tribe of Canada. But just because 10 to even 50% of something’s core cast is made up of one group does not Krane that only that group should be allowed to tell that story. (Was anyone really offended that an Asian-American woman wrote what many thought was a cutting and hilarious Broadway play a few seasons back about straight white men?) But just to stick to Ragtime: what specifically are any black people apparently offended by, or what do they think should have been left out or written differently? Not one answer has been given in this thread. |
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