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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:50 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
| In reply to: Irony incarnate - ryhog 09:41 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| The phrase "classic white privilege" can be tossed around all over this thread, but I would like for someone to directly address it in terms of Ragtime. All we have so far is someone telling us that their black colleagues would peg Lynn Ahrens' work that way. But with no explanation as to what that perception is based on, aside from what sounds like an outright blind dismissal of a white writer's work simply because she is white, which isn't helpful to ANYONE. Maybe we could actually have a discussion about this instead of attacking each other out of hand? | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 08:01 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chromolume 09:50 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| as I wrote above, my comment had nothing to do with the show itself; it has to do with Lynn Ahrens, a white person, making a statement that 1998's ragtime demonstrated how far we had come in race relations. That is a racist statement. And the fact that she made the statement recently shows how little she knows about race relations in America. read White Fragility. You're getting upset because I am pushing back against your white privilege. I understand. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: joerialto 09:59 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - manchurch03104 08:01 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| Aren’t white people part of ‘race relations’ too? | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:16 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - joerialto 09:59 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| They are, and by and large they (we) need to be better at it. I recommend picking up "Me and White Supremacy" and doing the exercises. It's rather like "The Artist's Way" for dismantling racism. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:37 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - manchurch03104 08:01 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| read White Fragility. You're getting upset because I am pushing back against your white privilege. I understand What an inane and hurtful assumption. You don't know anything about me. The only thing you're right about is that I did misunderstand your original point - that you were referring to Ahrens' statement, not about Ragtime itself. I can apologize for misreading you. Will you apologize in return? |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:46 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chromolume 09:50 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| I can only speak for myself (obviously) but I took the comment to be related to what Lynn said about her perception of what the work celebrated then and now, not to the work itself. In other words, I took it to mean that she was describing the show from a white perspective that did not (and could not) articulate how it was perceived by POC. That, to me, is what the notion of white privilege is all about: assuming that one can say what "we" celebrate etc. (And I think the same thing can and does happen with other groups that are not racially described.) Now to the broader point, I think a writer writes what they want to say, and puts it out there. Others can then react to it from whatever experience they bring to the table and that reaction, by definition, will evolve over time. I think some could have a discussion about the substance you are looking for, which would not necessarily exclude some who don't think that a white person can write about the POC experience (or a straight person about gays, or a gentile person about Jews, or Danes about the Portuguese, etc etc). But I also don't think a white person can dismiss a POC's comments as "totally off and uncalled for" in that discussion. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:52 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - ryhog 10:46 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| But I also don't think a white person can dismiss a POC's comments as "totally off and uncalled for" in that discussion. But I never said that. Just to clarify. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:17 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chromolume 10:52 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| Oh you absolutely did not. I was quoting an earlier post in this thread just to make the point that your idea of a "discussion" can't happen if some people are just going to say things like that. I'm not sure I am equipped to participate in the discussion, and I am not sure it can happen here unless you recruit more persons of color, but I am very supportive of conversations from which everyone can actually learn something. I have always been fond of the show, although I have my issues (mostly dramaturgical). I am also intrigued by the idea of seeing what a 2020 Coalhouse might look like. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 08:02 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - ryhog 11:17 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| Coalhouse would die in the first 5 minutes of the show. | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:26 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - ryhog 11:17 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| Sure but on an anonymous chat board where we don't know each other's race and "recruiting" someone for a specific thread conversations doesn't seem like an option, you don't think that white and presumably white chatters can have a thoughtful discussion and dissection of a musical's racial elements and the white writers of it while also keeping in mind the context that they are white people discussing it and won't be able to come to any conclusion? I think regardless of how many people in this chat identify their race for us as non-white, intelligent people can endeavor to have a crack and discussing it. Not making a decision about the racial issues, but a discussion. That's better to me than just avoiding it unless we have a chatter involved who tells us they are black. | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:04 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chazwaza 04:26 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| the recruiting "suggestion" was just a bit of semi-humor. The point, which remains, is that (based on some presumptions that I would be happy to have corrected) this board is overwhelmingly white (not surprising since that would align with theatre audience demographics in general and especially on Broadway). Now to your question, yes we can and should have such discussions and, as you also say, we should also be mindful of how white privilege permeates our efforts to "crack" it. Logically, if we are to learn (and this is the essence of the #weseeyouWAT movement) we need to expand that discussion, not here but more broadly. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:31 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - ryhog 09:04 am EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| Yeah, we of course need to expand it but since we don't advertise for new members, by race or otherwise, or identify our own race in our names (usually), it's quite hard to even know if you're discussing something with a white person or not. (And while it's definitely accurate to say that the theater audience especially on Bway is overwhelmingly white... so is the population of our country, so you could also say it's fair to assume most internet chat boards have a majority of white users, if we're going off statistics). I'm all for being aware of how white privilege permeates and filters our views, experiences and opinions. I'm sorry if I jumped to the assumption about what you were suggesting. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:00 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chazwaza 04:31 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| no worries, you're allowed. :-) btw I think "overwhelming" is in the rear view mirror and fading. Currently under 60%, with the majority projected to change in 2045 which is not that far away. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:04 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - ryhog 07:00 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| It can't come soon enough! (and i'll bet if the census were complete it might be here). But caucasian will still be, and i'm sure at least for the rest of our lifetimes, the largest racial group in America, even if the combining of the numbers of all non-white peoples overtake as the combined majority. | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:34 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chazwaza 07:04 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| definitely plus we have non-white and white hispanics factoring in so we have people identifying as POC who are caucasian. What really can't come soon enough (but won't during our lifetimes) is when we (collectively) only notice the way we notice redheads and blonds. | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 07:57 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - ryhog 07:34 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| ha, as a person who is one of those (of course i can't say which!), i can't wait. | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:37 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:36 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chazwaza 07:57 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| as a person who is one of those (of course i can't say which!) Your screenname is a giveaway lol - at least I think...;-) |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:17 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chromolume 09:36 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| I am lost here. The only thing I am confident about is that chazwaza on twitter is someone else. someone very else. | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:44 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - ryhog 11:17 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| Ha, no no, my twitter name is not and has nothing to do with my profile name here. I couldn't possibly be so obvious, otherwise you'd know I'm actually Dave Malloy. | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: ryhog 09:08 am EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chazwaza 11:44 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| have you looked at chazwaza on twitter? | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 01:48 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - ryhog 09:08 am EDT 08/28/20 | |
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| Yes. Not a single broadway meme, video, or reference joke! | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:20 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - ryhog 11:17 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| It's the "waza" part of the screenname. | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:33 am EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chromolume 11:20 pm EDT 08/27/20 | |
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| World Association of Zoos and Aquariums? Actually one of my nephews (who is Latino -- Mexican-American) goes by the nickname "Chaz" rather than "Chuck" or "Charlie". Just sayin'. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:55 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - BroadwayTonyJ 08:33 am EDT 08/28/20 | |
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| Not quite, lol. But I've always wondered if one were to substitute "Queenie" from "Chaz" if that led somewhere. (Obvious hint - it's a lyric in TWO shows.) | |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:01 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chromolume 01:55 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
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| Chazwaza is actually a reference from The Simpsons. It's what an Australian guy says he'd call a bullfrog. Marge: We have them in America, they're called bullfrogs. Aussie: What?! That's an odd name. I'd have called them chazwazas. However the internet (and maybe the simpsons) seems to favor a zz spelling of it. |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:09 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chazwaza 02:01 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
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| Ha! Well, I'm glad I know the real reference now. ;-) Of course, why you'd want to be called a bullfrog I don't know, lol. ;-) It's funny, though - because all these years I've been thinking "waza" as in "was a (blond)." Maybe I'm TOO much of a musical theatre geek? ;-) |
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| re: Irony incarnate | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:34 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chromolume 02:09 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
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| Nothing makes me happier than the assumption that my profile name is a reference to LaChiusa's masterpiece. But alas, the name does not give any clues to my hair color. | |
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| I agree, and... | |
| Last Edit: ShowGoer 10:38 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 10:26 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Irony incarnate - Chromolume 09:50 pm EDT 08/26/20 | |
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| There are flaws in Ragtime, as there are in everything from Macbeth to West Side Story, but I would like someone of color to either point out specifically what about Ahrens’s work on the show troubles them so much, or to point to a song or stanza that they would have been embarrassed to have written and/or think that a black writer would never have written that way. (Let us not forget that not only was the book writer of Ragtime white, Terrence McNally, but so was the original author of the novel it’s based on, EL Doctorow, as well as the playwright/screenwriter who wrote the film adaptation, Michael Weller.... so not only is Ahrens in solid company dramatizing this work, but with dozens of white characters on the stage and only 3, arguably 4, main black characters - admittedly very crucial - it’s not like this is an August Wilson milieu, and there’s an argument to be made that it seems no more imperative for Ragtime to be written by black writers than it would for, say, South Pacific to be written by Tonkinese women.) We can’t begin to learn where other groups or individuals are coming from if they toss off colloquial catch-phrases that seem to lump all people of a different group under the burden of a different monolith, and without educating us or being specific as to why they feel that way about them. |
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