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| 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 08:12 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 08:02 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
| In reply to: Oliver won - dramedy 07:16 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
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| The year after, 1964, ''She Loves Me'' was nominated for Best Musical, but NOT for Best Score. Or Barbara Cook for Leading Actress! (And yet Bock & Harnick won the Musical Theater Album Grammy for ''She Loves Me.'') Some years are more competitive than others, and then you have to factor in the tastes of the nominators, which can vary greatly. |
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| Linking post from July 26 that is still on the board | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:16 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - WaymanWong 08:02 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
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| Linked. | |
| Link | Timing and the Tonys |
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| Thanks for the reposting, but I did see it the first time | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 01:52 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 01:37 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: Linking post from July 26 that is still on the board - AlanScott 08:16 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
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| I understand that the 1963-64 Tony competition was ''pretty intense.'' It waa the season of ''Hello, Dolly!'' and ''Funny Girl,'' etc. And the 1964 Tonys were held May 24, 1964. ''She Loves Me'' had closed Jan. 11, 1964. Had it still been running at Tony time, it might've been better represented among the nominations. But even though ''She Loves Me'' closed over 4 months before the Tonys, the Tony nominators must've really liked ''She Loves Me'' to give it 5 nominations, including Best Musical, Best Producer and Best Book. Compare that to ''110 in the Shade,'' which was still running, but scored only 4 nominations, but didn't make the cut for Best Musical, Best Producer OR Best Book. As for Best Score, I can see why ''Hello, Dolly!'' and ''Funny Girl'' scored Tony nominations. But it's baffling to me that incredible set of ''She Loves Me'' songs, written by Bock & Harnick, who already won Tonys for ''Fiorello!'' (1959), didn't get one of the other two Best Score slots. Leading Actress in a Musical was really tough. You had Carol Channing in ''Hello, Dolly!,'' Bea Lillie in ''High Spirits'' and Barbra Streisand in ''Funny Girl.'' I'm guessing Barbara Cook in ''She Loves Me'' would've had to compete for the 4th slot, but it went to Inga Swenson of ''110 in the Shade'' instead. Instead, they went to ''110 in the Shade'' and ''High Spirits,'' which I consider to be much lesser scores. |
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| re: Thanks for the reposting, but I did see it the first time | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:45 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: Thanks for the reposting, but I did see it the first time - WaymanWong 01:37 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I had no doubt you had read my post. | |
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| Oops, I reversed the order of those last 2 paragraphs (nm) | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 01:57 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 01:55 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: Thanks for the reposting, but I did see it the first time - WaymanWong 01:37 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 01:00 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - WaymanWong 08:02 pm EDT 08/28/20 | |
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| I'm still amazed at the picaresque Tony rules that gave Tammy Grimes BEST SUPPORTING for "The Unsinkable Molly Brown" because her name was below the title and then, just a few years later, awarded Liza Minelli as BEST ACTRESS for "Flora, the Red Menace" even though her name was below the title. If the marvelous "She Loves Me" is denied best score and best actress, the Tony awards don't mean much IMHO. | |
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| It wasn’t Best Supporting. | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:11 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - Pokernight 01:00 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| It was Best Featured. Best Actress was given to stars. In fact, for some time, it was called Best Performance by a Broadway Star. | |
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| In 1961, it was "Featured or Supporting" | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 12:41 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: It wasn’t Best Supporting. - KingSpeed 05:11 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| At the link, you can see it announced that way, starting around 19:48. In the old days, it was sometimes Supporting, sometimes Featured, and sometimes Featured or Supporting. |
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| Link | 1961 Tonys |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: mermaniac 02:56 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - Pokernight 01:00 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Well...when the greatest musical of all time gets 9 nominations and no wins....It's had FOUR Broadway revivals, and the winner had ONE. The co-winner has never been revived on Broadway. The Tonys ??? And don't get me started on the Oscars. Ginger Rogers ??? No nomination for "Theme from NY,NY" ??? | |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 07:33 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - mermaniac 02:56 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| To be fair, "The Sound of Music" has proven to be the much more popular musical to the mass public. It may have only had one Broadway revival (which is surprising), but the film is a global phenomenon that was (is?) a rite of passage for many back when it was screened on TV pretty much every year. Arguably, it stands alongside "The Wizard of Oz" as the most iconic movie musicals ever made. "Gypsy" is a finer piece of art, but art generally doesn't triumph at the Tonys (or on Broadway in general). | |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 03:38 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - mermaniac 02:56 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| I assume you mean Gypsy, but didn't it get 8 noms? | |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 01:44 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 01:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - Pokernight 01:00 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Another example: Tom Bosley won as Featured Actor in a Musical, even tho' he played the title role in ''Fiorello!'' ... But his name was below the title. I imagine Bosley and Grimes were simply grateful to win a Tony (and didn't complain), but William Daniels in ''1776'' wouldn't play that game. When the Tonys nominated him for Featured Actor, Daniels turned it down because he rightfully believed John Adams was a Leading role. If Daniels kept quiet, the Featured Tony would've been his; instead, it went to ''1776'' castmate Ronald Holgate, who played Richard Henry Lee. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 01:16 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - WaymanWong 01:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| And Ron Holgate's was the very definition of a featured performance, although I sometimes wish that the Tonys had separate categories for performances that make an impact in one or two scenes versus performances that are also considered featured, but are featured throughout the show. I have no idea what you'd call such a role though...maybe a Cameo? Best Performance in a Cameo Role? In the case of 1776, it's hard for me to justify that an actor playing Richard Henry Lee, who appears essentially in one scene and has one song (though he returns toward the end for a couple of lines, a return that has huge importance in the story, but which doesn't actually ask the actor to do much except deliver a handful of lines or less) would be competing for that Featured nomination with actors playing Jefferson, Franklin, Dickinson, and Rutledge, characters that feature throughout the show. Of course, Lee gets the showiest, most show off-iness, most fun, and most funny song in the entire show, so I'm sure that clinched it for Holgate. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 03:06 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - JereNYC 01:16 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I am thinking back to something from my youth...maybe the Soap Opera Digest awards...lol...where I am pretty sure they had a category for supporting and a category for featured. I don't recall the exact the defintion of each but the point was that one would be for someone who had just a scene or two, and one for someone who was a more consistent presence. In terms of the Tonys I think of Marilyn Cooper in Woman of the Year or Katie Finneran in Promises, Promises or Adrian Lennox in Doubt. Can you think of other examples? I think one reason the Tonys don't have seperate categories is that it isn't really all that frequently that someone wins a Tony for singing just one song, or having just a scene. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:23 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - JereNYC 01:16 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I'm kinda surprised that Howard Da Silva didn't score a Tony nomination in Featured for playing Franklin. That's a pretty funny and crowd-pleasing part. (Da Silva's also a past Featured Tony nominee for ''Fiorello!'') |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 03:22 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 03:18 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - WaymanWong 02:23 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I've always wondered about that also, because Da Silva received good notices for his performance and is great in the film version. It's my understanding that he suffered a mild heart attack on the morning of the Opening, 3/16/69. I assume he was then out of the show for at least a few weeks. He missed the recording of the cast album on 3/23/69. The date of the award show was 4/20/69. I wonder if the Tony Nominators had a chance to see him in the show. I really wish Sony would release the film soundtrack on CD so we can appreciate Da Silva's performance in the context of a recording. |
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| Da Silva, Daniels and the Tonys | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 05:25 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:20 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - BroadwayTonyJ 03:18 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Peter Hunt's memory was that Da Silva's heart attack was during a rehearsal on the afternoon of Thursday, April 13, 1969. Doctors came, but he refused to go to the hospital. He was determined to open the show. He played the four remaining previews and opening night, then he went to the hospital. The day after 1776 opened, the Tonys committee met to vote on the nominations. They all had seen Da Silva. It was a small committee in those days, and 1776 had invited them to previews. I think the reason Da Silva wasn't nominated was either because the committee had been told he was out of the show or because they really wanted Daniels to win, and Da Silva would have been his major competition had he been nominated. Despite what some think, I think Daniels would have had little chance of winning leading actor in a musical had he been in that category, and the committee was fairly certain of it. In the Variety poll of drama critics later that season, Orbach easily won with 9 votes, with Daniels and Jack Cassidy (for Maggie Flynn) tied in second place with 4 votes each, and with Herschel Bernardi (Zorbá) and Jay Garner (Red, White and Maddox) getting 1 vote each. Admittedly, the Variety poll results did not always align with the Tonys, not even when someone had a strong win in the poll. For example, Gwen Verdon in Sweet Charity easily won over Lansbury in Mame, with Verdon getting 7 votes, while Lansbury and Barbara Harris (Clear Day) got 3 each, and Diener (Man of La Mancha) got 1, but Lansbury won the Tony. But in 1969, I have virtually no question that Orbach would have won the Tony even if he'd been competing with Daniels. I've re-read the reviews recently, and while Daniels got very good reviews, they weren't like Orbach's. I would probably have voted for Daniels so I don't say this because I think Orbach should have won. (I saw them both, but I was 11 when I saw Daniela, and 12 when I saw Orbach.) The Tonys committee was, I think, in a quandary. They had five if not six strong candidates for the nomination since George M! had opened too late the previous season to be eligible for the 1968 awards (a late change in dates that caused George M! producer David Black to file a lawsuit against the Tonys). So there was Orbach, Grey, Bernardi, Cassidy, Daniels and Garner (not a chance to win, but he'd gotten very strong reviews and some attention). I'm pretty sure they thought they were doing Daniels a favor. He would easily win in "featured or supporting" (as it was called that season), and they felt he would not win in lead. As you know, they absolutely had discretion to ignore billing. They had done it before. Btw, Orbach had been below the title when Promises opened but he and O'Hara were raised above it shortly after the opening. |
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| Typos and errors | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:58 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: Da Silva, Daniels and the Tonys - AlanScott 05:20 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| April 13 should be March 13. Where did April come from? And I could swear that I changed Daniela to Daniels. I know that I saw it before I clicked to post. Maybe somehow it reverted. :) |
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| re: Da Silva, Daniels and the Tonys | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 06:03 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: Da Silva, Daniels and the Tonys - AlanScott 05:20 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Thanks, Alan, as always, for sharing your informative and insightful posts about the Tonys. If they asked you, you could write a book ... | |
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| re: Da Silva, Daniels and the Tonys | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:10 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Da Silva, Daniels and the Tonys - WaymanWong 06:03 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Thank you, Wayman. I should just write one myself, or at least do something with all this kind of info. I'm undisciplined. | |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 08:16 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:14 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - WaymanWong 01:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Back in the early years of the Tonys (1947 -- 1966 especially, but not exclusively), the Tony Committee interpreted the rules of who was leading and who was featured or supporting differently in every single season. There was absolutely no consistency. I actually did an extensive study of this inconsistency some years ago. I spent a week at a local branch of the Chicago Public Library and checked the opening night Playbill of every single actor from those years who either was nominated or won a Tony award. The results were astounding. The Bosley and Grimes decisions are two of the most egregious examples of outrageous manipulation. In the same year as the Bosley decision, Robert Morse was nominated for Best Musical Actor for Take Me Along even though he was below the title and even though the role of Richard in the musical version of Ah, Wilderness! is clearly not a lead. To clarify, in the stage version of O'Neill's play the male leads are Richard and Nat Miller. Sid Davis is a relatively small featured role. When MGM did its movie version of Ah, Wilderness! in 1935, the story was considerably changed -- Wallace Beery (solo billed above the title) as Sid and Lionel Barrymore as Nat were now the co-leads and the role of Richard, now considerably smaller, was a supporting character. The musical version Take Me Along was essentially based on the '35 film and not on O'Neill's '33 play. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:35 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:31 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - BroadwayTonyJ 08:14 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Any idea WHY Robert Morse was bumped up to Leading in ''Take Me Along,'' even though he's below the title? Was he considered such a big star at the time? (Granted, he made his Broadway debut a few years earlier in ''The Matchmaker'' and got a Featured Actor Tony nomination for ''Say, Darling,'' but I doubt he was at the same level of his ''Take Me Along'' co-stars Jackie Gleason and Walter Pidgeon.) When ''Take Me Along'' was revived in 1985, Knut Knudsen played Sid, the role that won Gleason the Tony, but Knudsen was put in Featured. It's so rare to have 3 performers from the same show nominated in the Leading category. ''Take Me Along'' might be the exception. Currently, 3 actors from ''The Inheritance'' are eligible for Leading Actor in a Play: Andrew Burnap, Samuel Levine and Kyle Soller. We'll have to wait until the Tony nominations come out to see if they all make the cut. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:35 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - WaymanWong 02:31 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| I find a number of examples before the William Daniels case of people nominated in leading categories if their billing was "Starring" or even "Also Starring" under the title. (I've mentioned this here at least twice in the past.) It's when people were under the title and billed under "With" that they were almost invariably considered supporting or featured. Hence Grimes, Bosley and many, many others. (After the Tonys, Grimes was moved above the title.) Rarely mentioned here in the 3,747 discussions we've had of this, but we shouldn't forget Anne Bancroft in Two for the Seesaw and Maureen Stapleton and Eli Wallach in The Rose Tattoo. Bancroft got put above the title after Henry Fonda left, suggesting that perhaps if Fonda hadn't reluctantly agreed to do the play (and then bitched and made everyone miserable because Bancroft had the better role), Bancroft might have always been above the title. Related: the committee made an announcement justifying putting Charlie Ruggles in supporting or featured for The Pleasure of His Company, even though he was billed above the title. That show had interesting billing. Linking a page where you can see it if you click on the images. |
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| Link | The Pleasure of His Company |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 05:39 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - AlanScott 07:35 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
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| In the first few years of the awards, the following performers who won the Tony for a leading role were listed below the title and billed as "with": Paul Kelly in Command Decision Martita Hunt in The Madwoman of Chaillot Shirley Booth and Sidney Blackmer in Come Back, Little Sheba Julie Harris in I Am a Camera I'm not trying to be contentious. I'm just trying to figure out exactly how in hell the Tonys determined who were the leads and who were featured or supporting in those early years. It couldn't have been by billing because very frequently billing was ignored. Perhaps each year the committee was made up of different people, who made the rules and ignored what was done the previous year. The other answer is common sense. Do you know if any rules, guidelines, or parameters were actually codified in writing back in those years? |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:07 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - BroadwayTonyJ 05:39 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Thanks for all those examples. I'm pretty sure that I haven't come across anything discussing how these things were determined in the early years. But it was a small group of voters in those earliest years, around 50 people who basically (I think) got together and did it all in perhaps just one meeting. So, yeah, it seems there was no reason they couldn't have put Stapleton and Wallach in lead. I suppose a case could be made for Alvaro being supporting or featured, but not for Serafina. She is the lead. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:30 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - AlanScott 06:07 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| You're right. I totally forgot about Stapleton in Tattoo. That was pretty egregious. Since we're on the subject, why do you think they put George Rose in the leading category for My Fair Lady? I would have thought by '76 (when there was much more national scrutiny) they wouldn't have made such a nonsensical decision. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 06:13 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:11 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - BroadwayTonyJ 06:30 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I wrote about this a while ago online (but not here) after I found out some things I hadn't known about that perhaps helped to explain it. At the end of that post elsewhere, I quoted the Mako-Orbach story that Mako told Wayman (and that Wayman quoted here). Anyway, I've adapted what I wrote previously to make it more directly applicable to what we're discussing here. In 1975, Rose protested being nominated for best supporting actor (it was called "supporting" that year) in a play for My Fat Friend, which was a year after Douglas Turner Ward had protested being nominated in featured or supporting (as it was called that year) for The River Niger. 1975 was the same year as Rita Moreno's famous protest on the Tonys show itself. All of this, of course, was several years after the William Daniels kerfuffle. Unlike the Daniels situation, the protests by Ward and Rose were received by the Tonys committee after the ballots with their names had gone out so the Tonys refused to eliminate them from the list of nominees. Ward was not billed above the title but both Rose and Moreno were. And then in 1976, Mako was billed below the title. Given that Mako got nominated in leading, if they simply wanted a fourth nominee to fill out the category, there was no reason they could not have nominated Charles Repole in leading for Very Good Eddie since he was unquestionably playing the leading role and he’d gotten generally very nice reviews. And Rivera and Verdon were said to have been pissed that Donna McKechnie was nominated with them in leading actress. Anyway, my surmise is that they put Rose in lead to avoid him protesting again, never thinking there was any way he would win. My perception is that Ian Richardson was widely expected to win. And then Rose won. He was fantastic in the role, but it really did make any sense for him to be in leading. Another possibility, perhaps less likely, is that the committee really wanted Sammy Williams to win, and they thought Rose might give him tough competition. Having said that, Williams would surely have won even if Rose had been in competition in that category. The thing that was odd about Rose even being nominated for MFL was that he’d played the role at City Center in 1968. We’ve talked many times here (although not recently) about whether City Center was generally considered Broadway, and it’s too complicated for me to get into it again. But a number of people had been nominated for City Center productions, and I would think that Rose would have been deemed eligible in 1969 (the production opened in June 1968) had the nominating committee wanted to nominate him. Truth is that his reviews were much better in 1976 (although they were nice enough in 1968). The experience of 1968 must have helped. Plus, City Center productions rehearsed only two weeks and then opened after one preview. In 1976, he not only had played the role before, he had a full rehearsal period and a tryout run before he opened on Broadway. I wonder if the Tony rule against nominating people who had earlier been eligible for the same role was not yet in place in 1976 because the question had so rarely come up. And I wonder if Rose’s win may have prompted the rule. Re the Mako-Orbach story: Orbach could have added, "We not only lost to a fucking revival, we lost to a goddamn supporting actor in that revival!" (I must admit that I think of Billy Flynn as a supporting role.) Btw, the 1970s was a period of great contentiousness in the Tonys. Some of the rules and practicies we still have today were put in place in the 1970s in response to controversies and protests over nominations. And some of those controversies received prominent press coverage. |
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| The backstage drama behind the Tonys | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 03:21 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:19 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - AlanScott 06:11 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
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| ''Btw, the 1970s was a period of great contentiousness in the Tonys.'' Boy, you aren't kidding. I just Googled and found this 1977 N.Y. Times article about various Tony disputes from that era. It covers Rita Moreno, ''Side by Side by Sondheim,'' Donna McKechnie, plus notable Tony omissions and oversights. It was really fascinating to read about the jockeying and jostling over Lenny Baker (''I Love My Wife''). |
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| Link | N.Y. Times: The Drama Behind the Tony Awards (1977) |
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| re: The backstage drama behind the Tonys | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 05:34 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:33 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: The backstage drama behind the Tonys - WaymanWong 03:19 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
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| That's the article I particularly think of. That was the year when several things came together to produce a particularly contentious group of controversies. It's funny that Cohen seemed to think that Raul Julia would have been the tough competition for Lenny Baker if Baker had been in lead, but Barry Bostwick actually won. And they were playing rather similar characters. And Kevin Kline, the first to play Bostwick's role in a full production of the show, had been Julia's standby as Mack the Knife for a while, emphasizing the similarity. Perhaps the complete contrast of Baker's role to Jamie Lockhart and Mack might have helped him win in leading, but we'll never know. (Tangentially, I first typed Macheath, but then I looked it up and, not for the first time, was surprised to see that the character was listed as Mack the Knife in the playbill.) When I came across that article a few years ago — I'm sure I'd read it back in 1977 but I'd forgotten it — I was glad to see this from Gene Saks: “Alex gave me a long song and dance as to how it would be better for Lenny to be in the featured category because he'd be assured of winning." Because it lent additional credence to what I'd already been saying for several years: the committee put Daniels in featured or supporting (or whatever it was that year) because they wanted him to win (although there was also the issue of four other strong nominees, and leaving out any of them might have caused other controversies). I must remember to quote that the next time this comes up. And it will come up again. Maybe even in a few weeks. :) |
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| re: The backstage drama behind the Tonys | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 10:23 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 10:22 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: The backstage drama behind the Tonys - AlanScott 05:33 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
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| I was surprised at just how candid and matter-of-fact Cohen seemed to be in explaining why Lenny Baker was placed in Featured. I guess I'm naive, but I don't think the committee should've been gaming or manipulating the system to insure certain winners. Cohen's reasoning also didn't include Barry Bostwick; I wonder if he was shocked when Bostwick won over Raul Julia. P.S.: I looked up the Drama Desk's nominees for Leading Actor in a Musical for 1976: Ian Richardson (''My Fair Lady'') won over Raul Julia (''The Threepenny Opera''), Jerry Orbach (''Chicago'') and Nicol Williamson (''Rex''). And in 1977, Lenny Baker won for Leading Actor in a Musical over Barry Bostwick (''The Robber Bridegroom''), Yul Brynner (''The King and I''), Robert Guillaume (''Guys and Dolls'') and Reid Shelton (''Annie''). |
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| Orbach -- Featured Actor as Sky in GUYS AND DOLLS | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 02:51 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - AlanScott 06:11 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
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| Another crazy nomination decision was in '65. Jerry Orbach, billed above the title for playing Sky in Guys and Dolls, was put in the featured category. I remember it happening but don't recall any explanation being given. Maybe another reason why Daniels was put in featured for 1776 -- to make it up to Orbach for the earlier slight. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - AlanScott 06:11 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
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| Interesting. I remember the story about Rose complaining about his Tony nomination for The Fat Friend. Regarding a performer's eligibility for a role earlier performed, I remember a NY critic campaigning for Ethel Merman to get a nomination for the '66 revival of Annie Get Your Gun. I think it nay have been Henry Hewes. The revival itself did get 2 nominations, but not for Merman. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: larry13 04:26 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
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| And of course, the first Tonys were given out in 1947, a year after AGYR opened, so that neither the show nor Merman were recognized. | |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 05:10 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 05:09 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - larry13 04:26 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
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| Yes, so it's easy to understand why Hewes felt she should be nominated. Still, a special Tony would have made more sense. | |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Last Edit: JereNYC 01:28 pm EDT 09/02/20 | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 01:25 pm EDT 09/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - AlanScott 05:09 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
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| I wonder if, in the early days of the Tonys, there were rules that specifically pertained to revivals of work that predated the awards? Perhaps no one even envisioned that revivals would ever become enough of a thing to even consider such things. In any case, stars returning in new productions of shows they originated continues to be a rare phenomenon...Channing in HELLO, DOLLY!, Lansbury in MAME, Close in SUNSET BOULEVARD...any others? Under today's rules, Merman would have been eligible in 1966 for ANNIE GET YOUR GUN, right? Because she would not have been eligible in 1946, because the award didn't exist. Or would a special exception have been made to exempt her? |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: larry13 03:26 pm EDT 09/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - JereNYC 01:25 pm EDT 09/02/20 | |
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| Just off the top of my head: Mostel in FIDDLER; Kiley in LA MANCHA; Burton in CAMELOT. I'm sure there are many others. Robert Preston refusing to do MUSIC MAN again, after the film, is the exception. |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Posted by: EvFoDr 02:07 pm EDT 09/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - JereNYC 01:25 pm EDT 09/02/20 | |
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| Both Joel Grey and Alan Cumming starred in return production of Cabaret that they had done previously. What are the odds?? Same show, same role. | |
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| re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 03:40 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 03:33 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - WaymanWong 02:31 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Morse got very good reviews and his character is very important to the story, although the role is not really a lead. He and Merkel were both billed (in very small letters) as "also starring" but below the title. The decision wasn't an egregious one (like the Rose nomination), but coming in the same year as the Bosley situation, it makes the Tonys look bad. I'm guessing Merrick wanted 3 Best Musical Actor Nominations to promote the show as much as possible. There was a lot of competition that season. As it turned out, it took Take Me Along 17 years to recoup (according to Suskin). |
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| Tony nominations were rarely if ever advertised back then | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:59 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - BroadwayTonyJ 03:33 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| The Tonys were so much less important before the national telecasts. Some shows didn't even bother advertising major Tony wins, and nominations were rarely if ever advertised. I just checked the ABCs for a couple of days between the nominations and the awards ceremony, and Take Me Along did not advertise its nominations. | |
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| re: Tony nominations were rarely if ever advertised back then | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:55 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: Tony nominations were rarely if ever advertised back then - AlanScott 04:59 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Oh, I believe you. I was thinking more of the coverage in all the daily newspapers (my parents subscribed to 4 of them) and the weekly magazines (at least 2 in my family that I read) in those days. I was just a kid in 1960, but I remember columnists writing of a supposed rivalry between Gleason and Bosley for the Tony, which I assume was something Gleason just imagined. For years afterward, whenever interviewed, he would always say, "You know, I did win a Tony. | |
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| If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 10:53 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 10:36 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: 'She Loves Me' and 'to my amazement ...' - BroadwayTonyJ 08:14 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| (which means basically "mixed up" or "upside down"), have a look at the Donaldson Awards winners, in which sometimes people like Nanette Fabray won both Best Actress and Best Supporting Actress in a Musical for the same performance in "High Button Shoes", Cyril Ritchard won both Best Actor and Best Supporting Actor in a Musical for "Peter Pan", and David Wayne won Best Actor and Supporting Actor in a Musical for "Finian's Rainbow", among other oddities The wikipedia entry is fascinating look at theater from the inception of these awards in 1943 until 1955 when they were discontinued since the Tonys had overlapped a number of years and started to take precedence and overshadow the Donaldsons. Btw, Julie Andrews won a Donaldson for Female Debut in a Musical for "The Boy Friend", so she has in effect been honored by the NY theater community, just very early in her career. Just have a look to see all the (mostly) famous names and plays that were honored before the Tonys -- it's really something! They had awards for Best Play, Best First Play, Debuts (male and female), Best Dancer (male and female), etc. Judy Holliday, Laurence Olivier, Laurette Taylor, Paul Robeson, Marlon Brando, etc. were all Donaldson Award winners. I think this is a fascinating wikipedia page you might want to check out. | |
| Link | Donaldson Award Winners -- precursors to the Tony Awards |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - PlayWiz 10:36 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Oh, if you put it all in perspective, the Tonys aren't any worse than the Oscars. In its 73-year history, Bosley ('60), Grimes ('61), Daniels ('69), and Rose ('76) are the 4 most unbelievably outrageous manipulations that come to mind. Of course, I'm sure there were others, although probably not as obvious. I've heard it theorized that Bosley and Grimes (both relative unknowns) were deemed "featured" to allow both them and, of course, Gleason and Seal to all win Tonys. I'm sure that made Merrick happy. Theoretically if Daniels had been willing to play the game, both he and Orbach would have collected well deserved Tonys. Regardless, Merrick again triumphed. The Rose situation is a bit more puzzling. However, it did allow both he and Sammy Williams to get Tonys, which, nevertheless, were well earned. I've also heard that Bennett did a lot of campaigning to make that and the McKechnie and Bishop wins happen. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:26 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:23 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Even though Donna McKechnie played Cassie, a featured role in ''A Chorus Line,'' she was placed in the Leading Actress category. The N.Y. Times reported that Chita Rivera and Gwen Verdon, who were then co-starring in ''Chicago,'' were so angered by this that they skipped the Tony nominating party. It might also explain why they didn't perform at the 1976 Tony Awards (where they lost to McKechnie). At the 2007 Tonys, however, Charlotte D'Amboise, who played Cassie in the Broadway revival, was nominated for Featured Actress in a Musical. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:32 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - WaymanWong 02:23 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| A Chorus Line is a trickier example. It's a rare show with NO leads. But if there were a female lead (a lead of any gender), I think Cassie has the best case to be made being it. And beyond that, there were already at least 2-3 strong featured actress submissions in the rest of the show who would compete for those slots, so it made strategic sense too. And I don't think any of that changes because actor playing the role was moved to Featured for the revival. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:55 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 04:32 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I don't disagree with what you are saying. If the Tony Nominating Committee had decided on their own that the role of Cassie be considered Best Actress, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. However, if McKechnie is to be believed, the committee told Bennett that Cassie was a featured role, and he then used his passion, charisma, and (possibly) sexual attractiveness to convince them to make Cassie a Lead. Bennett also wanted LuPone and Williams to be considered leads. He lost that battle. Do you really think that Bennett's behavior is the proper way to determine nominating decisions for Tony awards? |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 06:40 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 06:31 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 10:55 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I just realized an unintended casualty of Bennett's campaigning for Donna McKechnie in Leading Actress might've been Christine Andreas. Had McKechnie not been in Leading Actress, that slot probably would've gone to Andreas, who played Eliza in ''My Fair Lady.'' Her Broadway debut earned her a Theatre World Award. Happily, Andreas was nominated a few years later for ''Oklahoma!'' & ''On Your Toes.'' |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:45 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - WaymanWong 06:31 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| The ironic thing is that McKechnie's career was probably hurt by the decision. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 06:51 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 06:45 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Speaking of irony, Donna was Chita's standby in ''The Visit'' (2015). I wonder if they ever looked back at that 1976 Tony to-do together and laughed. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:02 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - WaymanWong 06:51 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| That's right. I forgot that Donna was her standby in The Visit. I was hoping she would have the chance to go on. I've had some pretty extensive conversations with both of them. Chita's tough -- she would laugh about it. Donna is very sweet -- she might not. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 05:11 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:03 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 10:55 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I definitely do not by any means agree with him that LuPone or Williams were justified in being nominated as Leads. That is clearly him trying to get more nominations for the show. But I do think that Donna as Cassie is justified. It kills me that it meant Chita and Gwen wouldn't win for their much bigger and indisputably lead roles... but that is up to the voters not the nominating committee at that point. But producers petitions for actors to be in one category or the other is not new or specific to Bennett or the Tonys. Normally I want it to be fair, based on what the reality of the role is. But I also get that some actors who have Tonys for leading roles nominated as Featured (or Supporting) wouldn't have won if they'd been in the category more suited to the role. Which means a great performer in a great role for to have an award recognizing that. On the other hand, when a lead role competes against other featured roles, it isn't really fair because it's hard to compete with a heavyweight in a middle weight fight. So it's hard to say. But with ACL, and any show like it, I think that when there is no lead, picking someone who is the lead within the context is not unfair. It's not like they said that Mama Morton was a lead in Chicago. I find Cassie being called a lead (no matter by what means they arrived at that decision) much more fair and sensible than Meryl being nominated for Lead in Devil Wears Prada at the Oscars, for example. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 06:12 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:12 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 05:03 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I think movies are somewhat different than theatre. Miranda in Prada is the star part and Streep is a star. I think Brando as Vito Corleone in Godfather is a similar situation. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:49 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 06:12 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I'm not sure why it's different. Meryl played the definition of a supporting role to Hathaway in a definition of a leading role. Meryl has also been nominated as Supporting several times while she was a big star, as recently as 2015 in a lead role (The Witch -- yes, Baker's Wife is probably more of the Lead Actress role but they both are, and not because the Witch is a showy role but it also has a TON of stage/screen time and many songs and a crushing emotional arc... and was place as the lead for the Tonys, Drama Desks, and Oliviers), after she was in Prada. And beyond how her role is easily definably "supporting" in Prada, the role also doesn't even compare to the other actually lead roles nominated that year (Volver, Little Children, Notes On a Scandal, and The Queen which won). It's like the reverse William Daniels situation. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BigM 05:09 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 05:03 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Williams is Sammy Williams, who played Paul in CHORUS LINE. LuPone is not Patti but her brother Robert, who played the choreographer Zach. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:18 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BigM 05:09 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| thanks! Sorry I edited that part of the post after i read another post in the thread explaining it. I swear I know who Robert LuPone is I just totally forgot about the men of ACL, ha. And I also couldn't imagine anyone arguing that Zach, or any male character, were justified as a "Lead" for awards purposes or otherwise. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: mikem 10:53 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| BroadwayTonyJ, can you expand more about the Bennett campaigning needed to have Williams, McKechnie, and Bishop win? I always thought A Chorus Line was the sensation of the season, and I would have thought that the three of them would have won without aggressive campaigning. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:08 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - mikem 10:53 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
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| According to McKechnie's autobiography Time Steps, "A Chorus Line was in fierce competition that year with Bob Fosse's hit Chicago, and Michael was determined to win as many awards as possible for his show." She states that (unknown to her), Bennett engaged in "political machinations . . . behind the scenes." He outright told her "I'm fighting to have you put in the Best Actress in a Musical category" even though the role doesn't "meet the standards set by the rules committee." McKechnie talks a lot about her personal relationship with Bennett as opposed to her romantic relationship with Ken Howard. It's kind of hard to paraphrase everything she writes, but it's clear that Bennett and certain cast members who were fanatically loyal to him pressured McKechnie to stop dating Howard and start going out with Bennett more often to create the impression that they were "Broadway's sweethearts". Bennett also wanted both Robert LuPone and Sammy Williams to be nominated for Best Actor in a Musical. In addition, he wanted both Priscilla Lopez and Carole Bishop to be nominated for Featured Actress in a Musical category. He admitted that he was willing to take the risk that in both cases the competing performers might cancel each other out for the win. In the end Bennett mostly got what he wanted except for LuPone and Williams being deemed Featured. McKechnie's chapter on A Chorus Line is pretty detailed, runs 23 pages, and has some pretty shocking, even ugly comments about Bennett. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:16 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 10:08 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Does McKechnie's book mention why Bennett was pushing so hard for LuPone and Williams to be up for Leading Actor in a Musical? It's been a while since I've seen ''A Chorus Line,'' but Zach doesn't even have his own song; Paul doesn't either, but he has his monologue. I'd never consider either role a Leading part. Was there another male performer that Bennett wanted to pitch for Featured Actor instead? |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 03:00 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - WaymanWong 02:16 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| It's actually been about 14 years since I read Time Steps. I skimmed the chapter on A Chorus Line before posting so specifically about it here. She does not mention any other actor that Bennett was pushing. I would guess that if he had been successful in getting either LuPone or Williams deemed Lead, he would have dropped his lobbying for the other actor. My recollection is that Sammy Williams was heavily favored to win Best Featured for his touching portrayal of Paul. George Rose was apparently superb as Alfie Doolittle. IMO his performance on the revival cast album CD is certainly the most distinctive portrayal of that role I have ever heard. Had he been nominated as Featured, I would imagine he would have won. The previous year he had been nominated as Featured Actor in The Fat Friend, but complained that he should have been nominated as Lead. Perhaps the Tony people were trying to make up for an earlier mistake by nominating him for Lead in My Fair Lady. Alfie is the lead singer in 2 major numbers, but (I think) he only appears in 4 scenes. It's clearly a featured role. I haven't seen A Chorus Line since the '06 revival. I think Zach only sings as part of the ensemble in "One". It's an important role like that of Cassie, but it's not a lead. |
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| 1976 Tonys: Mako, Orbach and Rose | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 06:20 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 06:15 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 03:00 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Actually, Rose was billed above the title in that ''My Fair Lady,'' alongside Ian Richardson, Christine Andreas and Robert Coote. Anyway, I once had the great honor of interviewing Mako for The Sondheim Review (Spring 1998), so I asked him about the 1976 Tonys. What did he think of his chances to win? Mako said: ''I had run into [newspaper columnist] Earl Wilson and he told me that he had inside information that I was going to win [for 'Pacific Overtures']. I said, 'Come on!' I didn't place that much emphasis on the outcome, except I was renting a floor from Jerry Orbach, who had a brownstone, and he was also nominated for Best Actor in a Musical [for 'Chicago']. I thought Jerry would win. I didn't care for myself. If I got it, I'd have to go up and give a speech. [George Rose] and Ian Richardson were also nominated for 'My Fair Lady,' but that was a revival, so I didn't think they stood a chance. But [George] won. Anyway, I got home late, about 2:30 in the morning. At about 4:30, I heard Jerry Orbach shouting from the floor below, 'Hey, Mako! What the f*ck happened? I can't believe it; we lost to a f*cking revival!' '' |
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| re: 1976 Tonys: Mako, Orbach and Rose | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:40 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: 1976 Tonys: Mako, Orbach and Rose - WaymanWong 06:15 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I assume Rose was billed above the title because he had a good agent, and by 1976, he had had such a truly illustrious career. He earned the right to have top billing. However, that doesn't make the role a leading one. The decision just makes the Tony Award look like a joke. Great story, BTW! |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:26 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - mikem 10:53 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
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| Priscilla Lopez was also nominated in the same category as Bishop. Did Bennett put his hand on the scale by favoring Bishop for the award? | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:20 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - PlayWiz 12:26 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| No, based on what I read and heard, Bennett just wanted both Lopez and Bishop nominated as Featured Actress. He was gambling that one of them would win. It's my impression that Lopez was heavily favored and that Bishop pulled an upset. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:36 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:26 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| But how could anyone have given the Tony to Orbach for Promises Promises over Daniels in 1776?! Beyond the level of challenge of the roles, not only is John Adams the indisputable lead of 1776, he is the ONLY lead. Everyone else is supporting or featured in 1776... but Promises at least has 2 lead roles. AND 1776 is a much better and more impactful/memorable musical, if you ask me (and history/culture, as it would seem). And it WON Best Musical! That year baffles me... for this reason AND the criminal and bizarre exclusion of a BEST SCORE category when the eligible scores included: 1776, Hair, Zorba, Promises Promises, AND Dear World!! It was one of the best years for a Best Score category... ever? And I don't know why they'd not want the chance to give 1776 the top prize but give Hair best score, and show the awards are down with new styles and young audiences and progress etc. And Hair deserves a Best Score Tony (any of those aforementioned shows deserves one honestly - Zorba is one of K&E's finest scores, top 4 for me even now when there are 9 other scores to pick from (for me it's Cabaret, KOTSW, Chicago, Zorba) and Dear World is one of Herman's finest scores too even if the show failed... either score is Tony worthy, as are the others, including 1776 even if the book outshines it). I'm sure i've asked this before and if anyone answered i didn't retain it... why did this happen? There's nothing about it on the wiki page for that year or the award in general. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 12:23 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 12:15 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 06:26 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Chazwaza, I don't know why the Tonys dropped the categories of Best Book and Best Score in 1969 (and 1970), but the Tony for Best Musical then included the librettist, lyricist and composer. So when ''1776'' won Best Musical, the prize not only went to the producer, Stuart Ostrow, but also to Peter Stone and Sherman Edwards. And the following year (1970), Best Musical went to ''Applause,'' so the prize went to the producers (Joseph Kipness and Lawrence Kasha), librettists Betty Comden and Adolph Green, composer Charles Strouse and lyricist Lee Adams. In 1971, the Tonys would revert to form, where Best Musical went to the producers and there were separate Tonys for the book writer and composer and lyricist. Perhaps the change in 1969 and 1970 was implemented to reflect the Tony for Best Play (which usually goes to the producer and playwright). Oddly enough, between 1966 and 1968, the Tonys also didn't give out Best Book. The Best Musical winner also incorporated the producer, the book writer and the composer and lyricist. And yet, the Tonys still gave out a Best Score during those years. So, for 1966's ''Man of La Mancha,'' Mitch Leigh and Joe Darion won 2 Tonys: for Best Musical and Best Score. In 1967, Freb Ebb and John Kander would win 2 Tonys for ''Cabaret'': for Best Musical and Best Score. ... Maybe the Tonys dropped the Best Score in 1969 and 1970 to avoid this kind of double-dipping. I'm glad the Tonys separate Best Musical and Best Score; they don't always go hand-in-hand, and nowadays with all the jukebox shows ... |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:15 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 06:26 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| I agree with everything you are saying. However, I'm pretty sure Orbach won most of the pre-Tony awards that season and might have won the Best Musical Actor Tony even if Daniels had been nominated in his category. I believe there was considerable sentiment that it was Orbach's year. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: larry13 12:10 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| I know David Merrick is a long familiar whipping boy(and his huge artistic accomplishments forgotten or ignored)but regardless of his personality, regardless of whether or not he was "happy" with these various Tony outcomes, regardless of whether or not he tried to influence the nominations, the Tony Awards committee itself is solely to blame for all these outrageous nominations. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:13 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - larry13 12:10 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Of course, I agree with you about that conclusion. | |
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