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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - PlayWiz 10:36 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Oh, if you put it all in perspective, the Tonys aren't any worse than the Oscars. In its 73-year history, Bosley ('60), Grimes ('61), Daniels ('69), and Rose ('76) are the 4 most unbelievably outrageous manipulations that come to mind. Of course, I'm sure there were others, although probably not as obvious. I've heard it theorized that Bosley and Grimes (both relative unknowns) were deemed "featured" to allow both them and, of course, Gleason and Seal to all win Tonys. I'm sure that made Merrick happy. Theoretically if Daniels had been willing to play the game, both he and Orbach would have collected well deserved Tonys. Regardless, Merrick again triumphed. The Rose situation is a bit more puzzling. However, it did allow both he and Sammy Williams to get Tonys, which, nevertheless, were well earned. I've also heard that Bennett did a lot of campaigning to make that and the McKechnie and Bishop wins happen. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:26 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:23 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Even though Donna McKechnie played Cassie, a featured role in ''A Chorus Line,'' she was placed in the Leading Actress category. The N.Y. Times reported that Chita Rivera and Gwen Verdon, who were then co-starring in ''Chicago,'' were so angered by this that they skipped the Tony nominating party. It might also explain why they didn't perform at the 1976 Tony Awards (where they lost to McKechnie). At the 2007 Tonys, however, Charlotte D'Amboise, who played Cassie in the Broadway revival, was nominated for Featured Actress in a Musical. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:32 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - WaymanWong 02:23 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| A Chorus Line is a trickier example. It's a rare show with NO leads. But if there were a female lead (a lead of any gender), I think Cassie has the best case to be made being it. And beyond that, there were already at least 2-3 strong featured actress submissions in the rest of the show who would compete for those slots, so it made strategic sense too. And I don't think any of that changes because actor playing the role was moved to Featured for the revival. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:55 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 04:32 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I don't disagree with what you are saying. If the Tony Nominating Committee had decided on their own that the role of Cassie be considered Best Actress, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. However, if McKechnie is to be believed, the committee told Bennett that Cassie was a featured role, and he then used his passion, charisma, and (possibly) sexual attractiveness to convince them to make Cassie a Lead. Bennett also wanted LuPone and Williams to be considered leads. He lost that battle. Do you really think that Bennett's behavior is the proper way to determine nominating decisions for Tony awards? |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 06:40 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 06:31 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 10:55 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I just realized an unintended casualty of Bennett's campaigning for Donna McKechnie in Leading Actress might've been Christine Andreas. Had McKechnie not been in Leading Actress, that slot probably would've gone to Andreas, who played Eliza in ''My Fair Lady.'' Her Broadway debut earned her a Theatre World Award. Happily, Andreas was nominated a few years later for ''Oklahoma!'' & ''On Your Toes.'' |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:45 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - WaymanWong 06:31 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| The ironic thing is that McKechnie's career was probably hurt by the decision. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 06:51 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 06:45 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Speaking of irony, Donna was Chita's standby in ''The Visit'' (2015). I wonder if they ever looked back at that 1976 Tony to-do together and laughed. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:02 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - WaymanWong 06:51 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| That's right. I forgot that Donna was her standby in The Visit. I was hoping she would have the chance to go on. I've had some pretty extensive conversations with both of them. Chita's tough -- she would laugh about it. Donna is very sweet -- she might not. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 05:11 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:03 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 10:55 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I definitely do not by any means agree with him that LuPone or Williams were justified in being nominated as Leads. That is clearly him trying to get more nominations for the show. But I do think that Donna as Cassie is justified. It kills me that it meant Chita and Gwen wouldn't win for their much bigger and indisputably lead roles... but that is up to the voters not the nominating committee at that point. But producers petitions for actors to be in one category or the other is not new or specific to Bennett or the Tonys. Normally I want it to be fair, based on what the reality of the role is. But I also get that some actors who have Tonys for leading roles nominated as Featured (or Supporting) wouldn't have won if they'd been in the category more suited to the role. Which means a great performer in a great role for to have an award recognizing that. On the other hand, when a lead role competes against other featured roles, it isn't really fair because it's hard to compete with a heavyweight in a middle weight fight. So it's hard to say. But with ACL, and any show like it, I think that when there is no lead, picking someone who is the lead within the context is not unfair. It's not like they said that Mama Morton was a lead in Chicago. I find Cassie being called a lead (no matter by what means they arrived at that decision) much more fair and sensible than Meryl being nominated for Lead in Devil Wears Prada at the Oscars, for example. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 06:12 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:12 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 05:03 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I think movies are somewhat different than theatre. Miranda in Prada is the star part and Streep is a star. I think Brando as Vito Corleone in Godfather is a similar situation. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 09:49 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 06:12 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I'm not sure why it's different. Meryl played the definition of a supporting role to Hathaway in a definition of a leading role. Meryl has also been nominated as Supporting several times while she was a big star, as recently as 2015 in a lead role (The Witch -- yes, Baker's Wife is probably more of the Lead Actress role but they both are, and not because the Witch is a showy role but it also has a TON of stage/screen time and many songs and a crushing emotional arc... and was place as the lead for the Tonys, Drama Desks, and Oliviers), after she was in Prada. And beyond how her role is easily definably "supporting" in Prada, the role also doesn't even compare to the other actually lead roles nominated that year (Volver, Little Children, Notes On a Scandal, and The Queen which won). It's like the reverse William Daniels situation. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BigM 05:09 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 05:03 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Williams is Sammy Williams, who played Paul in CHORUS LINE. LuPone is not Patti but her brother Robert, who played the choreographer Zach. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:18 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BigM 05:09 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| thanks! Sorry I edited that part of the post after i read another post in the thread explaining it. I swear I know who Robert LuPone is I just totally forgot about the men of ACL, ha. And I also couldn't imagine anyone arguing that Zach, or any male character, were justified as a "Lead" for awards purposes or otherwise. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: mikem 10:53 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| BroadwayTonyJ, can you expand more about the Bennett campaigning needed to have Williams, McKechnie, and Bishop win? I always thought A Chorus Line was the sensation of the season, and I would have thought that the three of them would have won without aggressive campaigning. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:08 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - mikem 10:53 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
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| According to McKechnie's autobiography Time Steps, "A Chorus Line was in fierce competition that year with Bob Fosse's hit Chicago, and Michael was determined to win as many awards as possible for his show." She states that (unknown to her), Bennett engaged in "political machinations . . . behind the scenes." He outright told her "I'm fighting to have you put in the Best Actress in a Musical category" even though the role doesn't "meet the standards set by the rules committee." McKechnie talks a lot about her personal relationship with Bennett as opposed to her romantic relationship with Ken Howard. It's kind of hard to paraphrase everything she writes, but it's clear that Bennett and certain cast members who were fanatically loyal to him pressured McKechnie to stop dating Howard and start going out with Bennett more often to create the impression that they were "Broadway's sweethearts". Bennett also wanted both Robert LuPone and Sammy Williams to be nominated for Best Actor in a Musical. In addition, he wanted both Priscilla Lopez and Carole Bishop to be nominated for Featured Actress in a Musical category. He admitted that he was willing to take the risk that in both cases the competing performers might cancel each other out for the win. In the end Bennett mostly got what he wanted except for LuPone and Williams being deemed Featured. McKechnie's chapter on A Chorus Line is pretty detailed, runs 23 pages, and has some pretty shocking, even ugly comments about Bennett. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:16 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 10:08 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Does McKechnie's book mention why Bennett was pushing so hard for LuPone and Williams to be up for Leading Actor in a Musical? It's been a while since I've seen ''A Chorus Line,'' but Zach doesn't even have his own song; Paul doesn't either, but he has his monologue. I'd never consider either role a Leading part. Was there another male performer that Bennett wanted to pitch for Featured Actor instead? |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 03:00 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - WaymanWong 02:16 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| It's actually been about 14 years since I read Time Steps. I skimmed the chapter on A Chorus Line before posting so specifically about it here. She does not mention any other actor that Bennett was pushing. I would guess that if he had been successful in getting either LuPone or Williams deemed Lead, he would have dropped his lobbying for the other actor. My recollection is that Sammy Williams was heavily favored to win Best Featured for his touching portrayal of Paul. George Rose was apparently superb as Alfie Doolittle. IMO his performance on the revival cast album CD is certainly the most distinctive portrayal of that role I have ever heard. Had he been nominated as Featured, I would imagine he would have won. The previous year he had been nominated as Featured Actor in The Fat Friend, but complained that he should have been nominated as Lead. Perhaps the Tony people were trying to make up for an earlier mistake by nominating him for Lead in My Fair Lady. Alfie is the lead singer in 2 major numbers, but (I think) he only appears in 4 scenes. It's clearly a featured role. I haven't seen A Chorus Line since the '06 revival. I think Zach only sings as part of the ensemble in "One". It's an important role like that of Cassie, but it's not a lead. |
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| 1976 Tonys: Mako, Orbach and Rose | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 06:20 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 06:15 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 03:00 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| Actually, Rose was billed above the title in that ''My Fair Lady,'' alongside Ian Richardson, Christine Andreas and Robert Coote. Anyway, I once had the great honor of interviewing Mako for The Sondheim Review (Spring 1998), so I asked him about the 1976 Tonys. What did he think of his chances to win? Mako said: ''I had run into [newspaper columnist] Earl Wilson and he told me that he had inside information that I was going to win [for 'Pacific Overtures']. I said, 'Come on!' I didn't place that much emphasis on the outcome, except I was renting a floor from Jerry Orbach, who had a brownstone, and he was also nominated for Best Actor in a Musical [for 'Chicago']. I thought Jerry would win. I didn't care for myself. If I got it, I'd have to go up and give a speech. [George Rose] and Ian Richardson were also nominated for 'My Fair Lady,' but that was a revival, so I didn't think they stood a chance. But [George] won. Anyway, I got home late, about 2:30 in the morning. At about 4:30, I heard Jerry Orbach shouting from the floor below, 'Hey, Mako! What the f*ck happened? I can't believe it; we lost to a f*cking revival!' '' |
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| re: 1976 Tonys: Mako, Orbach and Rose | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:40 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: 1976 Tonys: Mako, Orbach and Rose - WaymanWong 06:15 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| I assume Rose was billed above the title because he had a good agent, and by 1976, he had had such a truly illustrious career. He earned the right to have top billing. However, that doesn't make the role a leading one. The decision just makes the Tony Award look like a joke. Great story, BTW! |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:26 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - mikem 10:53 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
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| Priscilla Lopez was also nominated in the same category as Bishop. Did Bennett put his hand on the scale by favoring Bishop for the award? | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:20 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - PlayWiz 12:26 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
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| No, based on what I read and heard, Bennett just wanted both Lopez and Bishop nominated as Featured Actress. He was gambling that one of them would win. It's my impression that Lopez was heavily favored and that Bishop pulled an upset. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: Chazwaza 06:36 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 06:26 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| But how could anyone have given the Tony to Orbach for Promises Promises over Daniels in 1776?! Beyond the level of challenge of the roles, not only is John Adams the indisputable lead of 1776, he is the ONLY lead. Everyone else is supporting or featured in 1776... but Promises at least has 2 lead roles. AND 1776 is a much better and more impactful/memorable musical, if you ask me (and history/culture, as it would seem). And it WON Best Musical! That year baffles me... for this reason AND the criminal and bizarre exclusion of a BEST SCORE category when the eligible scores included: 1776, Hair, Zorba, Promises Promises, AND Dear World!! It was one of the best years for a Best Score category... ever? And I don't know why they'd not want the chance to give 1776 the top prize but give Hair best score, and show the awards are down with new styles and young audiences and progress etc. And Hair deserves a Best Score Tony (any of those aforementioned shows deserves one honestly - Zorba is one of K&E's finest scores, top 4 for me even now when there are 9 other scores to pick from (for me it's Cabaret, KOTSW, Chicago, Zorba) and Dear World is one of Herman's finest scores too even if the show failed... either score is Tony worthy, as are the others, including 1776 even if the book outshines it). I'm sure i've asked this before and if anyone answered i didn't retain it... why did this happen? There's nothing about it on the wiki page for that year or the award in general. |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 12:23 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 12:15 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 06:26 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Chazwaza, I don't know why the Tonys dropped the categories of Best Book and Best Score in 1969 (and 1970), but the Tony for Best Musical then included the librettist, lyricist and composer. So when ''1776'' won Best Musical, the prize not only went to the producer, Stuart Ostrow, but also to Peter Stone and Sherman Edwards. And the following year (1970), Best Musical went to ''Applause,'' so the prize went to the producers (Joseph Kipness and Lawrence Kasha), librettists Betty Comden and Adolph Green, composer Charles Strouse and lyricist Lee Adams. In 1971, the Tonys would revert to form, where Best Musical went to the producers and there were separate Tonys for the book writer and composer and lyricist. Perhaps the change in 1969 and 1970 was implemented to reflect the Tony for Best Play (which usually goes to the producer and playwright). Oddly enough, between 1966 and 1968, the Tonys also didn't give out Best Book. The Best Musical winner also incorporated the producer, the book writer and the composer and lyricist. And yet, the Tonys still gave out a Best Score during those years. So, for 1966's ''Man of La Mancha,'' Mitch Leigh and Joe Darion won 2 Tonys: for Best Musical and Best Score. In 1967, Freb Ebb and John Kander would win 2 Tonys for ''Cabaret'': for Best Musical and Best Score. ... Maybe the Tonys dropped the Best Score in 1969 and 1970 to avoid this kind of double-dipping. I'm glad the Tonys separate Best Musical and Best Score; they don't always go hand-in-hand, and nowadays with all the jukebox shows ... |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:15 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - Chazwaza 06:26 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| I agree with everything you are saying. However, I'm pretty sure Orbach won most of the pre-Tony awards that season and might have won the Best Musical Actor Tony even if Daniels had been nominated in his category. I believe there was considerable sentiment that it was Orbach's year. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: larry13 12:10 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - BroadwayTonyJ 11:43 am EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| I know David Merrick is a long familiar whipping boy(and his huge artistic accomplishments forgotten or ignored)but regardless of his personality, regardless of whether or not he was "happy" with these various Tony outcomes, regardless of whether or not he tried to influence the nominations, the Tony Awards committee itself is solely to blame for all these outrageous nominations. | |
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| re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:13 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: If you think the Tonys are all Moishe Kapoyr - larry13 12:10 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
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| Of course, I agree with you about that conclusion. | |
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