Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| While I know a lot of Gilbert & Sullivan's music, I'm not very familiar with their operettas. I've never seen one performed, and don't know a lot about the stories. I did a little research and see that Broadway productions have not been very successful. So, my question is, why don't these shows work on the Broadway stage? | |
| reply to this message |
| PIRATES OF PENZANCE in the Berkshires | |
| Posted by: Amiens 01:19 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| John Rando directed PIRATES at Barrington Stage a few summers ago with a stellar cast: Will Swenson, Scarlett Strallen, Kyle Dean Massey, Jane Carr and David Garrison, that I thought would find its way into New York. Not for G&S purists, it was much more in the vein of the Wilford Leach production with lots of choreography and movement (by Joshua Bergasse) and was greatly enhanced by their intimate space. I remember a sort of gang plank that went over the center of the orchestra seating. Anyone else see this? | |
| reply to this message |
| re: PIRATES OF PENZANCE in the Berkshires | |
| Posted by: gad90210 07:37 am EDT 09/02/20 | |
| In reply to: PIRATES OF PENZANCE in the Berkshires - Amiens 01:19 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
|
|
|
| I did see this production and enjoyed it a lot. It was lively and well sung. Swenson was great, very dashing! A friend and I drove up and stayed at the lovely Hotel on North, which is steps from the theater. I love that hotel. It’s just perfect. I look forward to going back someday! As far as the staging, there was some kind of thrust that extended into the orchestra. If I am not mistaken, a mast for climbing was erected on it. Do you remember that? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: FleetStreetBarber 06:23 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| I'm not sure what your criteria for success is with regard to G&S on Broadway, but just looking at the history of "The Pirates of Penzance" there were 26 productions over the years. The Joe Papp revival was a huge success. Many of those who wanted to see it first at the Delacorte had to pay for the privilege and the Broadway version earned three Tonys including best revival, actor (Kevin Kline) and director (Wilford Leach). It lasted for nearly two years. I’m so happy to have a DVD of the Central Park version, with Patricia Routledge as Ruth. It’s one of my favorite live recordings of a musical. Its Broadway success led to a Hollywood film version, with Lansbury replacing Parsons who had played Ruth on Broadway. I don't think it’s possible to overestimate the influence of G&S. When I was growing up high schools and colleges routinely staged their works. TV viewers got a chance to see Groucho Marx as Koko in a 1960 abridged version of “The Mikado” on NBC. I believe there are still DVDs and cast recordings in circulation. G&S seemed to be everywhere in one form or another such as when Joan Sutherland, Dinah Shore and Ella Fitzgerald sang “Three Little Maids from School” on TV in 1963, which you can find on YouTube. My favorite example of G&S infiltrating the popular culture is Tom Lehrer’s recording of “The Elements,” which is linked below. |
|
| Link | Tom Lehrer Recites "The Elements" |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| When 'Pirates' sailed onto the big screen (and back onstage) | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:15 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 01:56 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - FleetStreetBarber 06:23 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
|
|
|
| For anyone who's never seen the delightful 1983 movie with Kevin Kline, Linda Ronstadt, Rex Smith & Angela Lansbury, it's on YouTube. In 2013, I was thrilled to see Kline re-create his role as the Pirate King in a one-night-only ''Pirates of Penzance'' concert at the Delacorte. And what a cast: Jonathan Groff as Frederick, Martin Short as Major General Stanley, Glenn Close as Ruth and Anika Noni Rose as Mabel. (Also on YouTube: ''The Pirate Movie'' (1982), a campy adaptation with Kristy McNichol and Christopher Atkins, but I've never watched it!) |
|
| Link | 'The Pirates of Penzance' (1983) - the full movie |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| re: When 'Pirates' sailed onto the big screen (and back onstage) | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:55 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: When 'Pirates' sailed onto the big screen (and back onstage) - WaymanWong 01:56 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
|
|
|
| I've always loved the PIRATES OF PENZANCE movie. It's such goofy fun and everyone in it is so good, even if Linda Ronstadt isn't much of an actress and some of the straying from the original material can be a bit much. It's such an unlikely project to have gotten made. I'd love to meet the person who greenlit it. I watched it again recently in HD at home on my big TV and was shocked in the opening scenes on the pirate ship that it was pretty apparent that Rex Smith was not wearing underwear. And his cock deserved billing in the movie. It's hard not to focus on it. THE PIRATE MOVE is another story and I'd be fascinated to learn exactly how that happened, because it's so batshit crazy that I can't even imagine pitching it. It's like an adaptation of PIRATES OF PENZANCE grafted onto this modern story and starring Christopher Atkins and Kristy McNichol. Some of the score is there augmented by modern pop songs. I mean...WHY? And that this movie happened alongside an actual film adaptation of the Papp revival...what are the chances that either would get made, let alone both?! |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Gilbert & Sullivan in a gay romance | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 01:32 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 01:30 am EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - FleetStreetBarber 06:23 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
|
|
|
| ''Those People,'' a gay romantic movie by Joey Kuhn, revolves around two lifelong gay pals, Charlie and Sebastian (played by Jonathan Gordon and Jason Ralph). And one of their favorite pastimes is singing along to Gilbert & Sullivan, and this is even featured in the 2015 film's trailer. Beautifully acted and shot (all over NYC), it's a touching portrait of gay friendships and love. It's been on Netflix before and might be currently on Hulu. | |
| Link | ''Those People'' (2015): Movie trailer |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| The movie Foul Play | |
| Posted by: dramedy 11:17 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| I watched the 42 year old movie (I loved it as a kid) last night. The mikado is the opera that the pope goes to see in San Francisco (love that the lobby is city hall but the auditorium is sf opera house. There are some segments of mikado near the end of the movies (it’s a ny opera company). It does raise my question why opera companies don’t do G&S productions. I guess they aren’t serious operas. But sf opera has done Sweeney Todd and showboat in the last decade. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The movie Foul Play | |
| Last Edit: AlanScott 07:26 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:22 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: The movie Foul Play - dramedy 11:17 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
|
|
|
| New York City Opera is the company seen in the movie, and they used to do G and S. Lyric Opera of Chicago did Mikado in 2010. Here is an excerpt from a Windy City Times review that may help explain why companies in particularly large houses don't do G and S more often. "The problems begin when the voices are not singing. After seeing G&S for 40 years in many different theaters, I've concluded that G&S is far too dialogue-driven for a vast opera house. Even with amplification, it just doesn't work." Most G and S operas were written for the Savoy in London (hence, Savoyards), a theatre that seats under 1,200. Yes, opera companies in theatres seating 2,000 or more have done musicals, and dialogue is often a problem. Often (not always) when opera companies do musicals, they are the more serious ones. But G and S wrote comedies. The dialogue is funny. The lyrics are funny. The words need to be heard and understood crisply (not with echo or some fuzziness). And perhaps more than with Sondheim or Rodgers and Hammerstein, the lyrics can easily get lost because the tessitura of the vocal lines is generally higher, which pretty much has to lead to less precise diction and altered vowels. Lyric of Chicago did do its series of productions of musicals in recent years, including some that have a good deal of comedy in them. Because they were broadcast on radio, we can hear how the comedy landed. Pretty well, at least sometimes. I am so grateful in particular for the Oklahoma! broadcast, which I love (despite some uneven casting). I think it may also be that nowadays it is believed, probably correctly, that the classic American musicals will sell better in opera houses than G and S. G and S probably doesn't sell as it did even 20 years ago. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The movie Foul Play | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:45 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: The movie Foul Play - AlanScott 07:22 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
|
|
|
| I am so grateful in particular for the Oklahoma! broadcast, which I love (despite some uneven casting). Actually, of all the broadcast musicals they did, I think Oklahoma was the weakest. As I've said before, it feels like it was conducted by a metronome. Musically very disappointing to me in general - not so much with the cast, but with the lack of nuance in the music. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The movie Foul Play | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 09:59 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: The movie Foul Play - Chromolume 09:45 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
|
|
|
| Maybe I need to listen again, but I had not noticed the conducting being metronomic. In fact, I remember loving the conducting because I felt that for the first time I was really hearing those orchestrations, hearing so many details that I had not heard before, although that could have had to do more with the miking than the conducting. And it's nice to get more of the score than we have on any recording. I was not nearly as happy with Carousel or The King and I, but I recall thinking Sound of Music was rather good. Have not heard the Show Boat. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The movie Foul Play | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:06 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: The movie Foul Play - dramedy 11:17 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
|
|
|
| Opera companies DO do them on occasion. And there are plenty of comic operas out there that are done all the time, so I don't think the issue of not being "serious" has much to do with it. (And Yeomen Of The Guard definitely is darker than the others as well.) Though I would say that operettas in general are less done by opera companies than other fare - it seems to me that while Fledermaus and Merry Widow are still pretty common, and occasionally an Offenbach operetta (La Perichole used to be done a lot more than it is now), there are a lot of operettas that never get done. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 07:29 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 07:28 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| When I was growing up there was this popular idea that light opera was more accessible than grand opera. That may have been the case back then because the popular music that light opera used as a connective tissue to grand opera was still much closer to popular culture than it is today. Now it almost feels to me that certain grand operas would be more accessible than operettas. If you want to see a wonderful vision of the enduring charm of Gilbert & Sullivan, check out Mike Leigh's delightful TOPSY TURVEY. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 11:41 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - singleticket 07:28 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| I think you need especially talented actor-comedians for Gilbert and Sullivan. Not just great singers who can emote. That might be a drawback for revivals. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:18 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - singleticket 07:28 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| And to the point, Sullivan was often deliberately parodying/borrowing from operatic styles of the time. So if you know what his source was, you're that much more in on the joke. My personal favorite is the "Here Is A Case Unprecedented" quintet from The Gondoliers, which is a clear "steal" from the Quintet in Carmen. A more familiar one would be Mabel's cadenza in the middle of "Poor Wand'ring One" which is taken right from Violetta in La Traviata. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 10:12 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 10:09 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - Chromolume 08:18 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| And to the point, Sullivan was often deliberately parodying/borrowing from operatic styles of the time. So if you know what his source was, you're that much more in on the joke. Agreed, as well as the Sturm und Drang of 19th century popular theater with its banditti, naval heroism and gothic ruins. G&S might have done a lot to bury many of those tropes through parody. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Not recent but more recent successes..... | |
| Posted by: portenopete 10:45 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| The Stratford (Ontario) Festival has had tremendous success over the years with G&S, especially during the years Brian Macdonald directed a series at the Avon Theatre (1982-85) and his production of THE MIKADO ended up on Broadway and in the West End, as well as on an American tour. One year (1984) three of his G&S productions played in rep (MIKADO, GONDOLIERS and IOLANTHE)! His choreography and staging combined with Susan Benson's exquisite design and a crack team of comic singing actors made stars of everyone involved and tour of the productions were broadcast nationally on CBC TV and there are bits and pieces of them on YouTube. He built a core company of actors who became expert at the G&S comic style like Eric Donkin, Richard McMillan and Douglas Chamberlain in the comic roles and Marie Baron, Karen Skidmore, Karen Wood in the soubrette roles. Stars like Canadian opera legend Maureen Forrester and Brent Carver would occasionally appear (as the Queen of the Fairies and The Pirate King, respectively). After the initial burst of G&S activity the productions became more sporadic and Macdonald revived a number of productions with largely new casts. Having moved over to explore the American Musical Theatre Canon with shows like GYPSY, CABARET and CAROUSEL (all magnificent), Macdonald finally retired and there have been a couple of attempts since. There was a terrific PIRATES in 2012 directed by Ethan McSweeny and a decent PINAFORE a couple of years ago directed by Leslie Wade. And I am forgetting a delightful adaptation of PIRATES that Macdonald did in 1994 with Colm Feore as The Pirate King that had a framing device of a silent film being made by a tyrannical, Teutonic director that the brilliant comic actor Tom Wood wrote and played the director. It was totally different from his 1985 production and hilarious. Almost all the productions featured new lyrics to pepper into the patter songs that dealt with contemporary figures as a way of reminding the audience how topical and specific the original Gilbert lyrics were. I'm lucky to have seen them all. Those original Macdonald shows were my introduction to G&S and they continue to be deeply satisfying memories. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Not recent but more recent successes..... | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 07:31 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 07:19 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Not recent but more recent successes..... - portenopete 10:45 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| I watched a recording of the complete Macdonald IOLANTHE and enjoyed it very much. | |
| Link | Iolanthe - Opening Chorus |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| Their operettas were hugely popular | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 12:04 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| Pinafore and Mikado were tremendously, massively successful here when first produced. Pinfaore was a sensation. In the 1870s, a five-month run was enormous. I'm not an expert on the history of G and S here. In fact, I'm not really a fan. But when you look at ibdb without historical context, what you see there can be misleading, especially without background info. For instance, Pirates played around three months in its first production here, but it was here as a limited engagement of the D'Oyley Carte. It was such a sensation that ads warned buyers against ticket speculators. Then it toured, but the company also had to get back to London. Pirates was in demand everywhere, but there were copyright issues. I think perhaps D'Oyley Carte did not want to allow American productions. Perhaps someone who knows more can chime in. Later G and S was generally seen here in repertory for limited runs from companies, including D'Oyley Carte, that specialized in or were even exclusively devoted to G and S. Often, the limited New York seasons, whether D'Oyley Carte or home-grown, were packed, and these companies also toured. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Their operettas were hugely popular | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:09 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Their operettas were hugely popular - AlanScott 12:04 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| For instance, Pirates played around three months in its first production here, but it was here as a limited engagement of the D'Oyley Carte. It was such a sensation that ads warned buyers against ticket speculators. Then it toured, but the company also had to get back to London. Pirates was in demand everywhere, but there were copyright issues. I think perhaps D'Oyley Carte did not want to allow American productions. Perhaps someone who knows more can chime in. Pinafore was so incredibly popular that the first productions in the U.S. were being pirated (pun intended) without permission from D'Oyly Carte - so they tried to make sure that wouldn't happen with Pirates - they got here first, did the first authorized U.S. production and controlled the rights. (Now, of course, it's all public domain, so we don't have to worry about that.) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Their operettas were hugely popular | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 10:34 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Their operettas were hugely popular - Chromolume 12:09 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| Just to further elaborate on the copyright situation... HMS PINAFORE had been such a smash hit in the UK that unauthorized productions started popping up in the US and, by the time that an officially sanctioned production arrived in the US, the show had already widely played in this country, which, of course, lessened the money that Gilbert and Sullivan were able to make on the show here. To do an end run around this situation for their next production, THE PIRATES OF PENZANCE, Gilbert and Sullivan opened it first in the US to establish copyright here. To establish copyright in the UK and avoid the reverse situation, they had an HMS PINAFORE touring company do a single performance of PIRATES in whatever small UK town they were in at the time. This was a great work-around to complicated copyright laws of the time. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Their operettas were hugely popular | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 12:31 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Their operettas were hugely popular - Chromolume 12:09 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| Thanks. That is discussed in a book I have, but I didn't feel like re-reading about it. I wish I were finding a site that I would trust with info about the history of their work as produced in America, but I'm not. But although I'm sure that, as in England, some works were less successful than others, in general their popularity in the U.S. can hardly be overstated. And people everywhere particularly wanted to see the three most popular ones. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Their operettas were hugely popular | |
| Posted by: StageDoorJohnny 09:28 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Their operettas were hugely popular - AlanScott 12:31 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| they were so popular that towns in Michigan and Saskatchewan were named Mikado ( the one in Mich. is now apparently pronounced mick-a-doo. Wyatt Earp met his second or third wife when she was touring HMS Pinafore in Tombstone, Arizona! |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Their operettas were hugely popular | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:38 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Their operettas were hugely popular - StageDoorJohnny 09:28 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
|
|
|
| Wyatt Earp met his second or third wife when she was touring HMS Pinafore in Tombstone, Arizona! But, they should have been doing Ruddigore in Tombstone. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Has anyone gone to ny Gilbert & Sullivan players productions. | |
| Posted by: dramedy 11:49 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| In San Fran, we have lamplighters that puts on two or three productions a year at different venues in Bay Area. I’ve enjoyed many of their productions. I see ny has a group. How are their productions? Probably another reason why broadway productions aren’t as needed. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Village Light Opera | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 10:46 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: Has anyone gone to ny Gilbert & Sullivan players productions. - dramedy 11:49 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| The Village Light Opera Group used to perform one of the operettas per year with an enormous cast and a full orchestra. The productions were not always inspired, but it was glorious to have a chance to hear the scores played by a full orchestra and sung by a larger ensemble than one is likely to see anywhere else in New York. They performed for years at the Haft Auditorium at FIT in midtown. I know the company ran into financial difficulties at one point and I'm not certain what the current status is, even pre-pandemic. Hopefully, they will survive and return...they fill a niche. There was also a company on the east side called Blue Hill Troupe that also did annual G&S productions, I think, for charity. I don't know much about them, but, likewise, I hope they return post-pandemic to doing what they do. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Village Light Opera | |
| Posted by: DavidEsq 03:38 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: Village Light Opera - JereNYC 10:46 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
|
|
|
| They're both alive and well but - as with every other theater group in NY - on indefinite hiatus. For VLOG - G&S has become more of an every few year thing rather than every year with a shift to more classic and contemporary musicals and, unfortunately again due to the realities of finance and space availability, have been far more in the semi-staged concert format than full fledged productions. I believe Blue Hill has still pretty consistently been doing 1 G&S and 1 other musical each year. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Has anyone gone to ny Gilbert & Sullivan players productions. | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 12:20 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:18 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Has anyone gone to ny Gilbert & Sullivan players productions. - dramedy 11:49 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| I've seen some of their productions over the years. Some very good singers, some silly attempts at updating the humor, some excellent performances and some people who never leave the company but should have years ago (and who weren't that great back then either). The conductor/head of company clearly has his favorites to whom he's faithful for using consistently. It's interesting that quite of few of the guys in their company seem to have done a stint in "Naked Boys Singing". | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| New York Gilbert & Sullivan Players | |
| Posted by: wmorrow 10:10 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Has anyone gone to ny Gilbert & Sullivan players productions. - PlayWiz 12:18 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| I've attended many productions of the NY G&S Players over the years, and usually enjoy the experience. Generally speaking I'd agree with the previous assessment. (Though it sounds like I'm more inclined to appreciate the troupe's productions, whatever the drawbacks.) But I can add that, in recent years at least, there has been a noticeable attempt to develop younger talent. I can also add that the troupe has a very loyal following, and the shows I've attended are always packed. I do hope they survive the pandemic. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:19 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| I would think they probably feel a little too stylized for Broadway. The most common pastiche "throwback" for Broadway musicals is the 20's/30's (think Drowsy Chaperone), but anything much older than that in style isn't very common, and also there's a certain perceived "rigidity" to G&S that might just not play right to a general audience. Certainly the most successful "mainstream" G&S production was the Joe Papp Pirates Of Penzance, which kept the score intact but played with the performance style and the orchestrations to make it more "American musical theatre"-ish to the audience. (Other attempts, like A Gordon Greenberg/Nell Benjamin update of the same operetta - a seeming attempt to capitalize on that same kind of updating - was IMO much more crass, less thought through, and not nearly as entertaining on the whole.) There have also been versions like The Hot Mikado which have hung around a little - but I think the general idea is that audiences won't trust the originals as much as they would an updated take on the music and style. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Joe Papp/Public Theatre Production | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 04:15 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - Chromolume 11:19 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| The surprising success of that revival in the early 1980's is still something to behold, the likes of which we will probably never see again. The original incarnation at the Delacorte was preserved on a commercially available video. The production transferred for a nice run on Broadway and toured. It was even made into a movie with most of the original leads returning. That's really the jaw-dropper for me. How does that even happen? Then, of course, it also inspired THE PIRATE MOVIE, which was...a less successful adaptation. But the fact that it got made at all is, again, jaw-dropping. I cannot imagine a 100 year old piece of theatre, being revived for a limited run, taking the world by storm today, as that production did then. It must have just hit the zeitgeist in exactly the right way and audiences went wild for it. And, since there were no author royalties to pay, Joe Papp must have been laughing all the way to the bank. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Pirates of penzance was a success | |
| Posted by: dramedy 11:17 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| And like any revival, it needs a gimmick. Big star (like Linda ronstadt at the height of her career), or actors playing instruments or making it dark (like OK!). There’s really only 3 good operettas: mikado (redone as Hot Mikado) ; hms pinafore and penzance. And I think the bridge between opera and broadway is a shaky one at best. The la Boheme opera on broadway flopped in 2003. It had been 55 years since the last revival. I love the mikado but even I wouldn’t pay $200 plus to see it on broadway. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Only 3? | |
| Last Edit: KingSpeed 03:31 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 03:27 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Pirates of penzance was a success - dramedy 11:17 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| I think all G&S are good. Esp “Iolanthe.” Also love the operetta “Die Fliedermous” (sp?). | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Only 3? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 11:34 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Only 3? - KingSpeed 03:27 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| After clicking on a link from this thread I found this beautiful concert Iolanthe. Sadly there are whole numbers excised and the running commentary a bit annoying but the singing, playing from the orchestra and fantastic conducting by Jane Glover, well if this doesn't convince that G & S stand up even today, I don't know what will. Enjoy!! | |
| Link | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2F3OWd0o9w |
| reply to this message | reply to first message | |
| It’s an unpopular opinion, but “Ruddigore” is my favorite G&S score. | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 07:32 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Only 3? - KingSpeed 03:27 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| (though a ridiculous show) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: It’s an unpopular opinion, but “Ruddigore” is my favorite G&S score. | |
| Posted by: DavidEsq 12:14 am EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: It’s an unpopular opinion, but “Ruddigore” is my favorite G&S score. - ShowGoer 07:32 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| I think many of the "second tier" G&S (Gondoliers, Ruddigore, Iolanthe, Patience, Yeoman) have some wonderful moments and great music but just aren't quite as accessible dramatically to audiences and harder to bring a more modern sensibility to. But most of my favorite individual numbers come from this group as opposed to the big three. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: It’s an unpopular opinion, but “Ruddigore” is my favorite G&S score. | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 09:56 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: It’s an unpopular opinion, but “Ruddigore” is my favorite G&S score. - ShowGoer 07:32 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| It is not that unpopular an opinion. There are a number of us who count Ruddigore as their favorite. And its patter trio seems to appear once a decade on Broadway in some popular musical or other. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: It’s an unpopular opinion, but “Ruddigore” is my favorite G&S score. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:09 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: It’s an unpopular opinion, but “Ruddigore” is my favorite G&S score. - whereismikeyfl 09:56 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| And its patter trio seems to appear once a decade on Broadway in some popular musical or other. Well, the Papp Pirates in 1981 and Millie in 2002. But I think that's it. :-) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: It’s an unpopular opinion, but “Ruddigore” is my favorite G&S score. | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 08:21 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:20 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: It’s an unpopular opinion, but “Ruddigore” is my favorite G&S score. - ShowGoer 07:32 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| Well, they're ALL ridiculous - that's part of the fun. ;-) A favorite bit of dialogue in Ruddigore: Mad Margaret: But see, they come – Sir Despard and his evil crew! Hide, hide – they are all mad – quite mad! Rose: What makes you think that? Mad Margaret: Hush! They sing choruses in public. That's mad enough, I think. :-) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Only 3? | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 03:34 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Only 3? - KingSpeed 03:27 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| Die Fliedermaus | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Only 3? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:12 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Only 3? - Snowysdad 03:34 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| Die Fledermaus. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Only 3? | |
| Last Edit: Alcindoro 06:39 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| Posted by: Alcindoro 06:38 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Only 3? - AlanScott 04:12 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| Or, as B.J. Ward called it, DIE, FLEDERMAUS, DIE! | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Only 3? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:15 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Only 3? - Alcindoro 06:38 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| LOL. That's pretty funny. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Pirates of penzance was a success | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 03:25 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: Pirates of penzance was a success - dramedy 11:17 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| There’s really only 3 good operettas: This died in the wool Savoyard would violently disagree, even taking into account that others are not as rabid as I. Iolanthe, The Gondoliers and Patience are all equal to The Mikado and H.M.S. Pinafore. I would argue that Pirates of Penzance actually is one of their in between works, large hunks of the second act are yawnable with the lead comic, Major General Stanley having no good second act feature. Ruddigore, The Sorcerer and Princess Ida may not be to everyone's tastes and Yeomen of the Guard is decidedly darker than the rest of G & S's oeuvre. That leaves us with Utopia Ltd and The Grand Duke, out of D'Oyly Carte's repertory for almost 75 years before making a very brief appearance in the Centennial year, possibly primarily so that Decca London could capture them on vinyl for posterity. I think The Grand Duke right up there with some of their better pieces and Utopia has its moments but lacks the consistancy of their best. Stylistically they are very far away from what is current, so one has to approach with that in mind. Some things are so great as to be forever, and I think Gilbert and Sullivan's best comes under that banner. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Pirates of penzance was a success | |
| Posted by: StanS 03:44 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Pirates of penzance was a success - Snowysdad 03:25 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
|
|
|
| You left out Trial By Jury. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Pirates of penzance was a success | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:23 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:22 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Pirates of penzance was a success - dramedy 11:17 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| There’s [sic] really only 3 good operettas: mikado (redone as Hot Mikado) ; hms pinafore and penzance. Your opinion. Perhaps you don't really know the others well? I would put Iolanthe The Gondoliers, Patience, Ruddigore, The Yeomen Of The Guard, and Trial By Jury as equally wonderful - and the few remaining ones aren't bad either. (And, my own opinion - for me personally, Pinafore is actually not all that high on my list - even though I acknowledge it's got some great stuff in it.) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| I’ve seen all of them on stage | |
| Posted by: dramedy 11:39 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Pirates of penzance was a success - Chromolume 11:22 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| I’d put gondoliers as number 4. I stick with my original 3 as the best. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: I’ve seen all of them on stage | |
| Posted by: StanS 03:35 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: I’ve seen all of them on stage - dramedy 11:39 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| My top 3: 1. Mikado 2. Iolanthe 3. Ruddigore Pirates is almost at the bottom of my list. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| I'm with you, dramedy. | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:40 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: I’ve seen all of them on stage - dramedy 11:39 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| I've seen an awful lot of G&S... and Mikado, Pinafore and Pirates are the only ones I'd ever pay to sit through again. - GMB |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: DavidEsq 11:12 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: Gilbert & Sullivan - SUBRCCS 10:57 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| I'm a fan of G&S and have performed in many but they were written over a 100 years ago for audiences of that time. They don't really work for the same reason that most works from a hundred years ago don't translate well for Broadway audiences. Mikado and Pirates have had some successes in certain venues but they're just not going to appeal to general Broadway audiences. The music is very period and much of the humor intellectual based on issues of that day. They're always going to be a niche audience. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 11:33 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:32 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - DavidEsq 11:12 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| The music is very period and much of the humor intellectual based on issues of that day. Yes. The music has occasionally been pastiched (if I can verb that word) in scores - certainly in A Gentleman's Guide, and of course the British Admiral's section of "Please Hello" in Pacific Overtures. Also the "Speed Test" number in Thoroughly Modern Millie is literally straight out of Ruddigore (as is, by the way, the idea of the ancestors' portraits coming to life as used in Me And My Girl). But a whole score with an authentic G&S feel might not work as well. And yes, some of the plots are so specific to British satire that they might not translate well to audiences who don't already know something about the shows. Patience comes to mind - would a modern audience not "into G&S" be up for a satire on the 19th century Aesthetic Movement lol? (Though I did a production a while back where the director tried a different take with the cast - knowing the Aesthetic plot would play itself, he put the emphasis on the love plot - particularly the dragoons coming back to claim their wives, to find them all madly in love with poets instead. I think it helped clarify what was actually going on.) |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: DavidEsq 11:46 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - Chromolume 11:32 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| Agreed - I think you can easily find many other examples of things that were influenced by G&S (I always thought Merano from Chess - minus the Freddie section - had a G&S influence) and patter songs in general pop up all over the place. Sections of dialog such as Pooh-Bah recounting his many governmental roles or Paradox from Pirates can still work. But yes - entire shows are difficult. I actually did a production of a Star Trek themed Pinafore in NYC a while back which was a lot of fun. I'm not usually a huge fan of things like that as they always seem so forced but luckily the authors were huge G&S and Sci-Fi fans and the updated lyrics were hysterical if you knew the references. I frankly think it worked better than the original (and they even made the switched at birth plotline which is usually ridiculous because of the age gap make logical sense!) | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: StanS 03:30 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - DavidEsq 11:46 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| Was the Star Trek Pinafore for the Village Light Opera Group, by any chance? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: DavidEsq 03:39 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - StanS 03:30 pm EDT 08/31/20 | |
|
|
|
| It was! The Captain was played by Nathan Hull who also was artistic director of Amore Opera who died unexpectedly a few weeks ago. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 03:54 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - DavidEsq 03:39 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
|
|
|
| Was that production presented down at Pace University? I think I saw that. I had some issues about the way it was adapted, but I really applaud the company for trying something different, rather than the same old traditional production that's been seen a hundred times. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: DavidEsq 05:04 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - JereNYC 03:54 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
|
|
|
| That one was at FIT. You were in a VLOG production right? Me and My GIrl??? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: StanS 02:52 pm EDT 09/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - DavidEsq 05:04 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
|
|
|
| I was playing piano in the pit for that VLOG production of Me and My Girl in 2003. Great memory. Fell in love with that show then. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:00 pm EDT 09/02/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - DavidEsq 05:04 pm EDT 09/01/20 | |
|
|
|
| I was in MY FAVORITE YEAR with them. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 03:31 pm EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - DavidEsq 11:46 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| Funny, a company that I cover in St. Petersburg did exactly the same thing to Pirates. I fondly remember a child actor they favor running around in an R2D2 costume, although in what role I can't quite remember. Not being either a Star Trek or Pirates fan (the operetta, not the baseball team who play spring training in my home town) it didn't land as strongly for me as for some. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Gilbert & Sullivan | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:02 am EDT 08/30/20 | |
| In reply to: re: Gilbert & Sullivan - DavidEsq 11:46 pm EDT 08/29/20 | |
|
|
|
| Yes about "Merano" - although I've always thought it odd that the lyric refers to Rodgers and Hammerstein. A most ingenious paradox? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.196821 seconds.