Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) | |
| Posted by: StageLover 08:27 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| Link | https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/paramount-temple-hill-tackling-new-king-and-i-musical |
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| This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 06:49 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 06:46 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - StageLover 08:27 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| The best Golden Age musical that never made it to film. LIL' ABNER, UNSINKABLE MOLLY BROWN, and any number of shows with about as many orig Bway performances as THE MOST HAPPY FELLA got film treatments. And Frank Loesser was well known -- and well liked -- in Hollywood. He worked on a whole buncha movies. "Standin' On the Corner" was a radio hit. This show coulda been a hit musical if they coulda cast it. Casting. That's the hard part. And maybe why it never made it to film. But wouldn't we have thought the same thing before Yul Brynner came along? - GMB |
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| One reason why a film version in the 10 years or so after the Broadway production was not likely | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 12:37 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:46 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Amy-Rosabella has sex with a man to whom she is not married, and she gets pregnant. No way to change that part of the plot. No way to simply let the sex between unmarried people just be implied, as in, say, Carousel and The Pajama Game. Movie musicals were family entertainment. Even in the late 1960s, it was not essential to the plot that Fannie and Nick were having sex before they were married, or that Bill Sikes and Nancy have sex. It was not something that had to be discussed. When you came home from seeing those movies with your children, they were not going to ask questions about pre-marital sex between those characters. |
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| THANK YOU... | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:04 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: One reason why a film version in the 10 years or so after the Broadway production was not likely - AlanScott 12:37 am EST 02/16/21 | |
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| Honestly, that isn't a perspective that I had ever considered. This is why I so appreciate the breadth of wisdom and experience of the ATC community! - GMB |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: portenopete 01:02 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - GrumpyMorningBoy 06:46 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Are you suggesting Robert Weede would have gone on to Hollywood stardom had some intrepid producer been brave enough to let him recreate his Tony in a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA? They could've cast any number of character stars like Edward G. Robinson, Broderick Crawford, Edward Arnold,Lee J. Cobb or even a much-too-young Rod Steiger and then dubbed them. (And cast Marilyn Monroe as Rosabella and dubbed her, as well.) |
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| Tito Gobbi as Tony, Shirley Jones as Amy/Rosabella done circa 1958 - 1962 | |
| Posted by: Marlo*Manners 08:25 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - portenopete 01:02 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Tito Gobbi was a wonderful Italian baritone and singing actor who had a lot of film experience in Italy and Great Britain ("The Glass Mountain"). He could have been a wonderful Tony and handled every aspect well. Jane Powell did not have the dramatic abilities Shirley Jones possessed - she was stuck in ingenue mode for her entire Hollywood career. Jones could play women who could be sexual and morally flawed as evidenced in her later film work (Oscar nods for "Elmer Gantry"). As for Joe, there were plenty of baritones around in that era - Gordon MacRae or Keith Andes or Harve Presnell. Howard Keel, Frank Sinatra or MacRae probably might have found the role too secondary. Plug in your favorite second banana belter comedienne as Cleo and you have a cast. (Betty Garrett? Kaye Ballard? Ann Miller???) When Hollywood filmed Gershwin's folk opera "Porgy and Bess" in the late fifties, they cut down the choral and instrumental interludes to create more of a book musical with dialogue interrupted by musical numbers as was typical of movie musicals in that time. Hollywood would have done the same to "Most Happy Fella". Having real locations would have benefited the show. Marlo Manners (Lady Barrington) |
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| re: Tito Gobbi as Tony, Shirley Jones as Amy/Rosabella done circa 1958 - 1962 | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:14 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: Tito Gobbi as Tony, Shirley Jones as Amy/Rosabella done circa 1958 - 1962 - Marlo*Manners 08:25 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| "Tito Gobbi as Tony, Shirley Jones as Amy" Yes! That would have been amazing, even if the timbre of Gobbi's voice was perhaps not 100% right for Tony, he would have made up for it in other ways, especially his acting ability. Of the people you mentioned, Harve Presnell or Keith Andes would have gotten my vote for Joey, but also-- what about Peter Palmer???!!!!!! |
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| No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 04:19 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 04:18 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - portenopete 01:02 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Honestly I can't think of a single 'character actor' who can sing the role who I'd want to hear / see play the part. But if we could convince Steven Pasquale to consent to some good makeup, he'd be damn near perfect, vocally. And he's Italian. And his actual wife -- Laura Benanti -- is a perfect Rosabella. - GMB |
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| Link | Highlights from THE MOST HAPPY FELLA starring Laura Benanti... |
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| re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:45 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... - GrumpyMorningBoy 04:18 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but are you suggesting that Steven Pasquale should play Tony rather than Joe, a role he's practically perfect for (even if he's arguably in the process of aging out of it)? I think he would be all wrong for Tony, not only physically but in terms of vocal type, whereas Joe would be a wonderful fit for him. | |
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| re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:07 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 01:03 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... - Michael_Portantiere 10:45 am EST 02/16/21 | |
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| It's not like this is ever gonna happen, but yeah. That's what I'm suggesting. Of COURSE he's perfect for Joe. That's all we've ever seen him do. I want him to put on a lotta makeup and get uglier and play Tony. And yeah, I know that's unusual casting. But if we're making a fantasy movie musical, I don't want Tony to sound like an opera singer. I just want him to sound good. I really don't think every classic Golden Age musical's baritone role needs to sound like Ezio Pinza, Robert Goulet, or John Raitt. While I absolutely appreciate the contributions of Paulo Szot and Brian Stokes Mitchell, I really do think that somewhat more conventional musical theater singers like Hugh Jackman, Patrick Wilson and Joshua Henry -- each of whom have a vocal timbre which is beautiful, but not nearly as big and round -- sound just fine to a modern ear. They've all taken on those classic baritone roles in recent years and done very well by them. To be fair, my fantasy movie musical version of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA cuts some music. So the operatic nature would probably be toned down a bit, anyway. Kind of delighted that my tangential comment spawned so much good discussion though about what might have been! - GMB |
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| re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 02:49 pm EST 02/17/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:47 pm EST 02/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:03 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
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| "somewhat more conventional musical theater singers like Hugh Jackman, Patrick Wilson and Joshua Henry -- each of whom have a vocal timbre which is beautiful, but not nearly as big and round -- sound just fine to a modern ear." I don't think Hugh Jackman has a beautiful timbre at all. I'm not alone in this, as I've seen other criticisms in this regard; his voice is both nasal and throaty at times, but he does have great presence otherwise and looks good moving, as he did when playing Peter Allen. He'll be fine in "Music Man" because it's a reasonably easy sing, unlike Jean Valjean which was something of a trial to listen to, though he came off better in that film because he still sounded better than Russell Crowe. Patrick Wilson has a fine voice, though stylistically he screwed up a few numbers in the traditional musical style of "Tenderloin" going for a modern "yelly" kind of big note after having been right on target for most of the songs. I don't know Henry's voice enough to comment upon it. |
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| re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:47 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... - GrumpyMorningBoy 01:03 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
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| "But if we're making a fantasy movie musical, I don't want Tony to sound like an opera singer. I just want him to sound good. I really don't think every classic Golden Age musical's baritone role needs to sound like Ezio Pinza, Robert Goulet, or John Raitt." I understand what you mean in general, and I might agree in some cases, but it's ironic to me that you would pick Tony in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA as a prime example of a character that doesn't need to "sound like an opera singer." To me, if there's ONE role in the canon that is entirely, 100 percent appropriate to be sung by an opera singer, and benefits greatly from such a voice, it's that one, because of the style of music that Loesser wrote for the character of a middle-aged Italian man living in the early/middle years of the 20th century -- a character who I think would have opera in his blood. |
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| re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:18 am EST 02/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... - Michael_Portantiere 01:47 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
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| To me, if there's ONE role in the canon that is entirely, 100 percent appropriate to be sung by an opera singer, and benefits greatly from such a voice, it's that one, because of the style of music that Loesser wrote for the character of a middle-aged Italian man living in the early/middle years of the 20th century -- a character who I think would have opera in his blood. THIS we agree on!!!! :-) |
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| re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:35 am EST 02/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... - Chromolume 01:18 am EST 02/17/21 | |
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| :-) :-) :-) | |
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| Oh dear.... | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 04:29 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: No. That isn't what I was suggesting. // I'd like to see one actual couple, though... - GrumpyMorningBoy 04:18 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| ...Steven Pasquale's actual wife may be surprised to hear she is Italian and named Laura Benanti. (His actual wife is Philippa Soo...his ex-wife is Laura Benanti...they are all delightful performers...and any of the three have and will sing the F out of Loesser any time they can...) |
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| re: Oh dear.... | |
| Last Edit: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:18 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 08:18 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: Oh dear.... - Quicheo 04:29 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| oh shit i think i knew that... but not lying... I TOTALLY FORGOT how embarrassing... this is why ATC needs to maintain the edit / delete option even after a time has elapsed...! - GMB |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 04:05 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - portenopete 01:02 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Monroe would’ve been way too pretty for the role. | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:47 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - portenopete 01:02 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| THE MOST HAPPY FELLA is almost a through-sung musical. For that reason, I highly doubt that anyone would even have ever produced a movie version with the singing of any of the leading players dubbed. | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Revned 03:09 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 10:47 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| That's a good point. And much as I would love to see a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA, I believe the fact that it is indeed almost through-sung like an opera is probably one of the main reasons it has not been filmed and probably won't be. Film musicals seem especially uncomfortable with recitative, as witness the films of RENT and DREAMGIRLS, both of which replace much of the sung recitative with spoken dialogue. I do remember the 1979 Broadway revival of MOST HAPPY FELLA with Giorgio Tozzi was shown on TV at the time; would love to see that again. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:26 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Revned 03:09 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| "Film musicals seem especially uncomfortable with recitative, as witness the films of RENT and DREAMGIRLS, both of which replace much of the sung recitative with spoken dialogue." And yet, of course, the film versions of THE PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, LES MISERABLES, and SWEENEY TODD all contain quite a lot of sung dialogue. Not really recitative, but let's not get into that distinction :-) I have heard rumors that there was talk of Luciano Pavarotti starring in a film version of HAPPY FELLA years ago, and when that didn't happen for whatever reason(s), he did YES, GIORGIO instead! I know that reference to and posting of links to bootleg video is verboten on ATC, but are links to TV telecasts permitted? If so, here is a link to a complete video of the HAPPY FELLA with Tozzi et al. |
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| Link | THE MOST HAPPY FELLA on PBS |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:42 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 03:26 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| They might have tried a sung-through musical (although "Most Happy Fella" actually does have dialogue) after the world-wide success of "Umbrellas of Cherbourg" which is pretty much all sung. This would have been early 1960s when "Most Happy Fella" was a relatively recent show. I don't know who might have been cast as Tony back then though without dubbing. I suppose George Sanders, a usually suave character man, could have played him, and sung the role himself, based on his own lovely singing in "Call Me Madam". Or James Cagney with dubbing, but most folks knew what Cagney sounded like, so the dubbing would have been obvious. Jane Powell or Shirley Jones would have been lovely as Rosabella. | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 06:58 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:58 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 03:26 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| I have heard rumors that there was talk of Luciano Pavarotti starring in a film version of HAPPY FELLA years ago, and when that didn't happen for whatever reason(s), he did YES, GIORGIO instead! There are debates as to whether Pavarotti was unable to read music (making learning a role that much more effortful for all) or was just incredibly lazy in learning new roles - or both - but I would bet that if Most Happy Fella was indeed in the planning stages, he just wasn't going to be able to learn the role in time. Plus, he wouldn't have had the right tessitura for Tony, and who else would he have played? Add onto that that acting was never his strongpoint, and I'm ultimately glad he didn't try it. Yes, Giorgio was embarrassing enough. ;-) |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:52 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 06:58 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| I mostly agree with your points except maybe the one about the tessitura. As I'm sure you know, Tony in HAPPY FELLA is a VERY high baritone role. I expect that, especially for a soundtrack recording, Pavarotti could have sung all of that music in the original keys with no problem and it would have sounded fine, but of course, if there were a few sections that were too low for him, they could have just transposed them up a bit. | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 12:51 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:48 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 11:52 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Well, that's why I said tessitura, not range. The whole role would lie low for him - not enough of it in the more brilliant high range that were his money notes. They really would have had to transpose to whole role up to make it sit in his voice in a flattering way. Ideally, he would be Giuseppe, the top tenor in the Italian trio, but that would have ben odd casting (unless they got "The Three Tenors" to play those parts lol - but they happened a bit later I believe). I'm sure he got paid handsomely to do the Italian Tenor cameo in Rosenkavalier, but casting him in the trio wouldn't have made sense. But that's where he would have sounded the best. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:28 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 12:48 am EST 02/15/21 | |
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| "That's why I said tessitura, not range. The whole role would lie low for him - not enough of it in the more brilliant high range that were his money notes. They really would have had to transpose to whole role up to make it sit in his voice in a flattering way. " I think I still disagree, although I can't say for sure because, obviously, neither of us ever heard Pavarotti sing any of Tony's songs in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA, either in the original keys or higher keys. But I do suspect he would have sounded great singing most or all of that music in the original keys FOR A FILM SOUNDTRACK, especially bearing in mind that keys for film musicals are often lower than the stage versions because that is often thought to be a better fit for the medium. Look at the tessitura (not just the range) of the title song, "Rosabella," "My Heart Is So Full Of You," etc., and I think you will agree that they are all quite high -- so high, in fact, that when bass-baritone Giorgio Tozzi played the role, he had quite a lot of trouble not with the individual high notes, which were all still in his range, but with the tessitura, i.e., having to keep singing away at the top of his range for most of the show. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: larry13 11:57 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 10:28 am EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Michael, first thank you so much for providing the link to the marvelous Tozzi MOST HAPPY FELLA. Secondly, I think the problem with Pavarotti singing Tony has nothing to do with whether he could sing the notes as written or would have required a lowering of the keys. Very likely he could have sung all the notes and in the early '80s was still probably at his peak vocally--which, of course, was quite some peak. And it's isn't his acting which at times was not perfunctory. A strong director and lots of preparation might have made him quite appropriate for this very sympathetic role. It's simply that this role was written for a baritone, especially a baritone like Robert Weede with the required brilliant top, as you've mentioned.(I even wonder if Loesser tailored any of the music TO Weede.)It makes a huge--and, in my opinion, unsatisfactory--difference to have a tenor sing a baritone role. It's partly the sound of a tenor for the character of a older man like Tony. But, additionally, just listen to Domingo sing any of the various Verdi baritone parts he's been doing. No matter what your opinion of Domingo's vocal estate, especially now, the fact remains that Verdi wrote these roles for the baritone voice and Domingo, who can sing all these notes, sounds exactly like the tenor he always was. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:27 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - larry13 11:57 am EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Thanks for your thoughtful response, but I disagree with much of what you wrote. I understand your point that, in opera, a tenor voice is usually associated more with youthful roles whereas older characters are usually written for lower voices, BUT of course there are exceptions -- the roles of Eleazar in LA JUIVE and the Emperor in TURANDOT are two of the many that leap immediately to mind. I honestly think the main reason why you feel a tenor would be so wrong for the role of Tony in HAPPY FELLA is that you're so used to the role being sung by baritones. But I strongly suspect that if Pavarotti had played the role onstage or in a film version when he was in his fifties or early 60s, he would have been completely credible in the role from a a dramatic standpoint and would have sounded great even if they had kept the original keys. And if not, on the latter point, simply transposing some sections up as little as a half step for a full step, and perhaps adding a few optional high notes in a few places, would have been enough to make the role entirely appropriate from a vocal standpoint. Alas, we'll never know.... As for Domingo.....as I'm sure you're aware, he began his professional career as a baritone, and many of us feel that he kept that (wonderful, rich) baritonal quality throughout his career, which is why some of us (certainly not all!) feel he sounded fine in the baritone roles (and excerpts) that he took on late in his career. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: larry13 02:12 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 01:27 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| As I tried to point out earlier(but maybe not clearly enough), I do NOT think the main reason a tenor is so wrong for Tony is that I'm used to the role being sung by baritones.(As far as I know, it has never been sung by anyone other than a baritone or bass and there is a much much greater divide between a tenor and baritone than between a baritone and bass.)The composer--doesn't he matter?--wrote the part for a baritone. Usually, the composer knows what (s)he's doing and for good reason(s). Sometimes composers have altered the music or allowed changes, sometimes with good results, sometimes not. I'm very aware of lead characters such as Eleazar--and many others for older men--being written for tenors.(The Emperor is a minor character.)Tony, however, is in a show that was written the middle of the past century and, in fact, not for the opera house. And, again, Loesser wrote it for a baritone and I think he was right. As another poster mentioned, the sound--and glory--of Pavarotti's voice is not at all the voice for Tony. Yes, I'm aware Domingo started(and is ending?)as a baritone. And that he never had the secure highest notes Pavarotti and most other tenors who sang his repertory had, often to late in their careers. I personally don't think he had a wonderful rich baritonal quality throughout his career nor do I think he sounded fine in the baritone roles he has recently assumed. He IS amazing for someone his age to be able to sing--and sing well--everything he has but, again in my opinion, I don't find this at all comparable to the sound real baritones--such as Weede(and Leonard Warren, Robert Merrill, Cornell MacNeil, Sherrill Milnes, etc. etc.)displayed in the roles Verdi and others wrote for their voice range. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:28 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - larry13 02:12 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Thanks. Again, I do understand but I simply disagree with most of what you wrote, even though you have supported your opinions well. It could be that Loesser felt it was super-important for Tony to be a high baritone rather than a tenor, or maybe not. Maybe if he knew of a middle-aged or older operatic tenor who he wanted to pre-cast in the role, he would have written the part a little higher. The fact that it's written for SUCH a high baritone would seem to indicate that a darker, lower voice quality was not really what he was going for. Oh, and the fact that the second largest male role in the show, that of Joe, was also written for a baritone might just as easily have prompted to write Tony for a tenor as another way to go with that role. By the way, did you by any chance get to hear Paul Sorvino as Tony in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA when he did it at City Opera, either live or in video/audio clips? That performance was, alas, a near-disaster, but (in my opinion) not because his very tenorish sound was in any way inappropriate for the role. I thought he sounded great from a vocal standpoint, so it was a pity that he was unable or unwilling to learn the role properly in the time allotted. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:47 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 02:28 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| The fact that it's written for SUCH a high baritone would seem to indicate that a darker, lower voice quality was not really what he was going for. Was the role written for Robert Weede, or was he cast after the fact? I think the idea that it's SUCH [sic] a high baritone role is subjective, and it depends on the singer at hand. Obviously it worked for Weede. You say Tozzi had troubles with it, but it was also late in his career, and it's a heavy role to sing every night. Every voice is different. I can still easily see Pavarotti looking at the role, realizing it wasn't really right for his "fach" and that furthermore it wouldn't show him off in the way he would have wanted. Maybe there's someone out there who knows what actually happened. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:36 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 02:28 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| By the way, did you by any chance get to hear Paul Sorvino as Tony in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA when he did it at City Opera, either live or in video/audio clips? That performance was, alas, a near-disaster, but (in my opinion) not because his very tenorish sound was in any way inappropriate for the role. I did not see/hear Sorvino, but from what I seem to remember, some were indeed saying that the main problem was that the voice didn't fit the role. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:23 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 07:36 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| "I did not see/hear Sorvino, but from what I seem to remember, some were indeed saying that the main problem was that the voice didn't fit the role." As I've already noted, I strongly disagree that this was the main problem with Sorvino as Tony, but if you like, you can continue to push that narrative even though you did not see/hear him in the role. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:33 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 08:23 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Michael - I'm not trying to "push a narrative," I'm just saying that at the time that's something I remember reading from various sources. I'm not making it up. | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: larry13 02:38 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 02:28 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| No, I didn't see Sorvino in the role.(I guess, then, that at least one tenor HAS portrayed Tony.)I'll look to see if I can find audio and/or video clips. I do enjoy Sorvino's work on the BAKER'S WIFE and CARMELINA recordings, even if he isn't exactly what the latter calls for. Thank you for your comments. As always. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:05 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 01:27 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Michael - I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense. Pavarotti was NOT a baritonal kind of tenor, the role would have generally sounded low for him even if he could hit the notes, and it wouldn't have shown him off in the way he would have wanted or expected. It has nothing to do with the age of the character, it has to do with the tessitura of the role vs. Pavarotti's "wheelhouse." I also wonder if doing an entire role in English might have been a bit daunting for him - he was not a native speaker and it showed - George (later Giorgio) Tozzi was American born with English as his first language, to contrast. Tony would simply NOT have been a good fit for Pavarotti, which is probably why it never happened. He's dead, and he never did the role, so this is all a moot point anyway. I'd say let's leave it at that. There are enough futile "dead singer" conversations on the opera chat boards, and most of them much more contentious than this. Let's nip this one in the bud. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:53 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 02:05 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Why are you so annoyed or upset by this conversation that you want to nip it in the bud? I agree that we don't have to go on and on, but I'm sticking with my guess that Pavarotti might have sounded great singing the role of Tony in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA, even perhaps in the original keys, FOR THE SOUNDTRACK OF A FILM VERSION -- because, first of all, Tony is written for a VERY high baritone voice, and secondly, the keys of musical theater songs as written for the stage are very often taken down a bit for the movie versions because that is often felt to be better for the more intimate medium of film, and also because there is no longer the need to project the voice to a large theater. (See WEST SIDE STORY and many other movies as examples.) And IF Pavarotti did not sound great singing Tony's music in the original keys, I think slight upward transpositions in some cases would have addressed that issue without in any way betraying Frank Loesser. At the time when Pavarotti was apparently considering doing a film of HAPPY FELLA, he would have been perfect for the part in terms of his age. He would also have been perfect for it in terms of his personality. And as for your comment about him doing an entire role in English, Tony is one of very few roles that would also have been ideal for him in that respect, as the character is supposed to have a very thick Italian accent. And P.S., any remaining discomfort Pavarotti had in doing an entire role in English would have been largely mitigated by the fact that this would not have been a live performance but a movie, therefore permitting lots of time for rehearsal and honing and retakes if necessary. These are my opinions, and of course you are free to disagree, but I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from telling me that I'm not making sense -- as if no opera role or musical theater role has ever been adapted in terms of keys, etc. for a certain artist to play it. I'm fairly certain you must know enough about the history of opera and musical theater to know that this has happened on several notable occasions, which makes it surprising to me that you continue to argue this point and tell me I'm not making sense. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:34 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 02:53 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| I'm sorry if my tone seemed harsh. Opera roles are not generally adapted in terms of keys. Some individual arias are. But outside of roles in early operas changed over time in various ways because they were written for castrati, or specific adaptations (by the composers) for alternate voices (Werther and I Puritani come to mind), full roles themselves are not changed. Also, any number of opera purists balk at transpositions, even though they really have no reason to. But most aria transpositions are done because of a particular expected climactic high note (sometimes an interpolated one, as in "Di Quella Pira"), not because the entire aria sits better in the voice. The idea of lowering keys for film is fine - the part of the equation I don't see in your argument is that the voice must fit the new key. The idea that Pav would sing a score in a tessitura lower than he is used to is not at all the same thing as lowering the keys for a singer who sounds ideal in those keys. Chenoweth could do this for The Music Man just fine, because she has that versatility in her lower range. I don't think Pav's voice worked in the same way. And again, the score wouldn't permit him to really take advantage of the brilliant upper register that was his calling card. For someone like Domingo, this might have made more sense. Also, we're talking A LOT of music, not just a handful of songs as in most musicals. I'm sorry to say this, but in this case, your argument really does not make sense. Make of that what you will. I also think that learning a role in fractured English such as Tony might actually be harder, because one would have to learn that specific take on the dialect. Tony's lyrics are not academic in that sense, they are written from the standpoint of an American trying to write pidgin dialect, and it's not necessarily how a true Italian might speak. You're also giving the studio(s) a lot of credit for having "lots of time" for rehearsal/retakes/etc - how much money was going to be spent on this??? |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:43 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 07:34 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| "Opera roles are not generally adapted in terms of keys. Some individual arias are. But outside of roles in early operas changed over time in various ways because they were written for castrati, or specific adaptations (by the composers) for alternate voices (Werther and I Puritani come to mind), full roles themselves are not changed." Yes, WERTHER and I PURITANI, and THE BARBER OF SEVILLE is another major, famous example you didn't mention. "I don't think Pav's voice worked in the same way. And again, the score wouldn't permit him to really take advantage of the brilliant upper register that was his calling card. For someone like Domingo, this might have made more sense. Also, we're talking A LOT of music, not just a handful of songs as in most musicals. I'm sorry to say this, but in this case, your argument really does not make sense. Make of that what you will." I wish you would look/listen to HAPPY FELLA again to reacquaint yourself with how high so much of it is written, even in the original keys. In the same vein, I would say that very little of it is written in a lower baritone range. So, again, even if the original keys would have been a little too low to show off Pavarotti's voice in a film -- and I'm not sure they would have been -- only slight transpositions upward would have solved that issue. That makes perfect sense to me, even if it doesn't to you. P.S. I'm pretty sure that two or three of the ensemble numbers in the score, including the title song, end on high Cs for the sopranos. It's not written for Tony to join in on those high notes, but Pavarotti certainly could have done so without in any way destroying the integrity of the piece. "I also think that learning a role in fractured English such as Tony might actually be harder, because one would have to learn that specific take on the dialect. Tony's lyrics are not academic in that sense, they are written from the standpoint of an American trying to write pidgin dialect, and it's not necessarily how a true Italian might speak. You're also giving the studio(s) a lot of credit for having 'lots of time' for rehearsal/retakes/etc - how much money was going to be spent on this???" Now, there's an argument of yours that makes zero sense to me, so I'm not going to address it. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:04 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:02 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 08:43 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Much as I love Loesser, I'm not going to trust him for Italian or English with an Italian dialect. He got "Spozalizio" wrong. It's a 4 syllable word in Italian, not 5. It might have still made sense for the Americans to sing it as 5 (we Anglicize things like that all the time), but the native Italians, starting with the trio who begin the number, would not have pronounced the word that way. That's actually always bothered me. But there's really also no way to change the music in any credible way so that the word could be sung properly. We're stuck with it, lol. I just think that a native Italian with English as a second language (i.e. Pavarotti, not Tony) might have to take extra time to lean the specific way Loesser wrote the dialect, as opposed to how it would naturally sound if he were saying the English words as an Italian. Not such a hard concept to understand. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:21 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 09:02 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| You're absolutely right about "sposalizio" (note the correct spelling), though I would say that even when Italians pronounce it as a four-syllable word, those elided vowels at the end, "i" and "o," tend to make it sound like two quick syllables, at least to American/English ears. To your other point, I expect that Pavarotti would have had no problem learning how to sing, for example, "she was-a send-a me her photograph" even if he wouldn't actually pronounce that phrase that way in his authentic Italian accent. For that matter, if some of Pav's pronunciations might not have been EXACTLY what Loesser wrote, I'm guessing (though I can't be sure) that he probably wouldn't have minded very much, as long as it sounded natural. :-) |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:19 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 11:21 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Grazie for the spelling correction. ;-) And yes - we as Americans hear the elided "io" as 2 syllables, but a true Italian would make the distinction. It actually would have been an interesting detail if Loesser had set it "correctly' for the Italian trio at the beginning, but did the 5-syllable version for the American ensemble. But he may not have known the distinction (or might not have considered it a big deal in any case). I think we can just agree to disagree on the whole Pavarotti casting issue. Perhaps we could consider the issue of casting Netrebko as Mame instead?? :-) |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:33 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 12:19 am EST 02/16/21 | |
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| Yes, or since the three Italian servants only sing the word "sposalizio" once each at the very top of the song, I guess those performers could fudge it and sing the word on four notes rather than five, if that would make you and me feel better. The rest of the number is sung by the American characters, and although Tony himself says "sposalizio" at least once during the show, he never sings the word :-) "I think we can just agree to disagree on the whole Pavarotti casting issue." Sure :-) And FWIW, I do agree with you that Domingo would have been a better fit for the role from a purely vocal standpoint. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:56 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 10:33 am EST 02/16/21 | |
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| Yes, or since the three Italian servants only sing the word "sposalizio" once each at the very top of the song, I guess those performers could fudge it and sing the word on four notes rather than five, if that would make you and me feel better. | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:47 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 08:43 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| and THE BARBER OF SEVILLE is another major, famous example you didn't mention. "Una voce poco fa" used to be transposed up a half step. Otherwise, the only "changes" were essentially in the fioratura material, which would have been open to improvisation anyway. A lot of that also comes from tradition, not so much an earnest attempt to "change" the score. But ok. ;-) |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Revned 03:53 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 03:26 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Thanks for posting the link to that! Interesting point about the sung dialogue. Maybe the nineteenth-century, British and French settings of SWEENEY, PHANTOM, and LES MIZ make their operatic qualities seem more appropriate on film, whereas recitative in a more contemporary American story like RENT or DREAMGIRLS would be more stylistically jarring. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:31 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Revned 03:53 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Maybe. Interesting that, while the film versions of both RENT and DREAMGIRLS did indeed cut out a lot of the sung dialogue from the shows, some of it was retained. One might argue that if SOME sung dialogue was acceptable in those movies, then more of it could have/would have/should have been acceptable as well. But whatever! | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Gustave 07:50 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - portenopete 01:02 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| You mention Edward G. Robinson as a possibility for the role of Tony in a movie version of "The Most Happy Fella." He actually played the part of Tony in a movie version of the play "They Knew What They Wanted," (1924) the source material for the musical. The movie was titled "A Lady to Love" (1930). Both the play and the movie were written by Sidney Howard. Gustave | |
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| A Lady to Love | |
| Posted by: stevemr 05:52 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Gustave 07:50 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Never knew this existed. Turns out its on YouTube. | |
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| For 3 years, I worked on Stage 6 at FOX Studios | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 05:58 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - StageLover 08:27 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| There’s a plaque outside saying what other films and TV shows filmed there. This includes Miracle on 34th Street, Hello Dolly, and yes, The King & I. Almost every day there, I would think wow, this was the Harmonia Gardens and where Shall We Danced was filmed. Such history. Couldn’t believe I worked there. | |
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| This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Last Edit: DistantDrumming 11:09 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 11:08 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - StageLover 08:27 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| I've certainly never seen another set of actors come anywhere close to this in any stage production I've seen and I can't imagine it ever being equaled on film. I'm not a total purist. Let's be honest, some films from this period are not classic, you can smell the mothballs, but this one has held up quite well. And, sure, the idea of a more culturally accurate and representational presentation is interesting and valid. But, yeah, this moment won't ever be equaled. | |
| Link | Was uhh... like this? |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 12:10 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - DistantDrumming 11:08 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| I guess you never got to see Brenner repeat the role on stage. It started with a New York production opposite Constance Tower and after that he toured and toured until just before he died. Many of the Annas were quite good, only one stood out in my memory as being his equal, Mary Beth Piel shortly after switching from opera. With or without a great Anna Brenner was A M A Z I N G. There will be good productions of this classic show because both leading parts are superbly written and the secondarey characters make for a fascinating tapastry. The 56 movie does an outstanding job of getting this classic musical onto the stage. I don't see any reason to make a new version. | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: huskyital (huskyital@yahoo.co0m) 11:56 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - Snowysdad 12:10 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| I agree.....it is still a great stage play but I can't imagine anyone better than Yul Brynner or Deborah Kerr for the main parts.....I saw the recent production.....but I saw that revival and can't remember if I saw Mary Beth or Angela Lansbury......why are they making this film.....how about plays that haven't been turned into films yes....SUNSET BOULEVARD and FOLLIES come to mind. | |
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| Money Money Money | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 12:55 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:55 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - Snowysdad 12:10 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| I agree with you, but I think R&H sees a very compelling reason to make a new version and suck as much money as they can out of the property before it enters public domain. | |
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| Please - brYnner with a Y. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:15 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - Snowysdad 12:10 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| I can't really see David Brenner in the role. Also Constance Towers and Mary Beth Peil. But most importantly, Yul Brynner. Especially because the misspelling in the article was already noted. Sorry to be "that guy" - but not really sorry. |
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| re: Please - brYnner with a Y. | |
| Posted by: Snowysdad 03:59 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Please - brYnner with a Y. - Chromolume 12:15 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Aologies, it was late at night, past my bed time and I even thought to myself, "Self, that doesn't look right." | |
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| Also: Brynner didn't win the Tony for Best Actor in a Musical | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 04:07 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:59 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Please - brYnner with a Y. - Chromolume 12:15 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Contrary to the Hollywood Reporter story linked in the original post, Brynner won the Tony for Supporting or Featured Actor in a Musical. At the 1952 Tonys, it was Phil Silvers who won Best Actor in a Musical for ''Top Banana.'' However, Brynner did win Best Actor for the film adaptation of ''The King and I'' at the 1957 Academy Awards. And stars of Broadway revivals of ''The King and I,'' like Lou Diamond Phillips and Ken Watanabe, were Tony-nominated for Leading Actor |
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| His Tony was for "distinguished supporting performance" by an actor in a musical | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:25 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Also: Brynner didn't win the Tony for Best Actor in a Musical - WaymanWong 03:59 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| He did, however, win the Variety poll and the Donaldson award as leading actor in a musical in 1951, when his only real competition was Robert Alda for Guys and Dolls. In the Variety poll, Brynner got 10 votes, Alda got 1. The King and I was in competition for the 1952 Tonys, when his main competition would have been Phil Silvers if he had been in leading. It's not so clear that he would have won that, despite the sensational reviews and, apparently, audience response for his performance. But, again, no one cared that much about the Tonys at this time. |
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| Yul B wouldn’t have been allowed to do it nowadays | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 06:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Also: Brynner didn't win the Tony for Best Actor in a Musical - WaymanWong 03:59 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| He’s not Asian | |
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| re: Yul B wouldn’t have been allowed to do it nowadays | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 04:37 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: Yul B wouldn’t have been allowed to do it nowadays - KingSpeed 06:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| I was fascinated to read about his ancestry, which does include some Asian ancestors, even if not counting eastern Russians as Asians. | |
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| re: Also: Brynner didn't win the Tony for Best Actor in a Musical | |
| Posted by: larry13 12:56 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Also: Brynner didn't win the Tony for Best Actor in a Musical - WaymanWong 03:59 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Brynner was billed below the title(explanation, not justification, for the Tony decision)and, once again, maybe the Tonys thought they were doing him a favor by guaranteeing him a win. Famously, Gertrude Lawrence supposedly on her deathbed asked that he be moved to above the title--which he was.(And, of course, the new Anna would then share top billing--which Lawrence never did.) As outrageous as the King being seen as a supporting role, it still isn't as ludicrous as Molly Brown being so cited. |
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| re: Also: Brynner didn't win the Tony for Best Actor in a Musical | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:52 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Also: Brynner didn't win the Tony for Best Actor in a Musical - larry13 12:56 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Right. For what it's worth, I think the overwhelming reason why Brynner did not initially receive star billing for the original production of THE KING AND I and, therefore, was nominated not nominated in the leading actor category was that he was a little-known commodity at the time. I'm not saying it's a GOOD reason (I don't think it is), but I do think that's the explanation, as you say. | |
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| Mary Beth Peil as Anna in "King and I" was nominated for Supporting Actress | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 04:41 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 04:38 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Also: Brynner didn't win the Tony for Best Actor in a Musical - Michael_Portantiere 01:52 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| It's also kind of ludicrous that when Mary Beth Peil did one of Brynner's Broadway "King & I" revivals she was nominated for Supporting (or Featured, whatever they called it that year) Actress for Anna! Yes she was below the title, but it was originally conceived as the star part of the whole show. But Tonys are very inconsistent over the years with categories; they did that with putting leading people in supporting categories like those Tony winners Tom Bosley in "Fiorello", Tammy Grimes in "Molly Brown", Dick van Dyke in "Bye Bye Birdie" which I can think of offhand and also nominee William Daniels' huge role of John Adams (who declined that nomination for "1776"). | |
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| re: Mary Beth Peil in "King and I" was nominated for Supporting | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 05:19 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 05:16 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Mary Beth Peil as Anna in "King and I" was nominated for Supporting Actress - PlayWiz 04:38 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| What's also so ridiculous about Peil's Supporting nomination is: Who is she supporting? ''The King and I'' was designed to be a star vehicle for Gertrude Lawrence. Anna has more songs to sing in ''The King and I'' than anyone else. The show revolves around her arc, and the King is her colorful antagonist. Lawrence won her Tony for Best Actress in a Musical as Anna, and decades later, so did Donna Murphy and Kelli O'Hara. Despite her billing, the Tonys should've bumped Peil up to Leading Actress, and she could've competed with Leilani Jones, who was billed above the title in ''Grind.'' (It wouldn't have been the first time there were just two Tony nominees in that category.) Instead, the Tonys dumped the Leading Actress category, and bumped Jones down to Featured Actress, alongside Peil, and Evalyn Baron and Lenka Peterson, both from ''Quilters.'' |
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| re: Mary Beth Peil in "King and I" was nominated for Supporting | |
| Posted by: larry13 05:51 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mary Beth Peil in "King and I" was nominated for Supporting - WaymanWong 05:16 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| And 'we" still discuss, debate, question, predict, argue, etc. etc. etc.(as the King might have said)the Tony nominations and awards. And it's not even as if the awards(except maybe best musical), let alone nominations, had any real box-office clout. | |
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| Yes, the Tonys were pretty unimportant in 1952 | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:16 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mary Beth Peil in "King and I" was nominated for Supporting - larry13 05:51 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Thank you. I have said that a bunch of times here. In 1952, the Tony awards were pretty unimportant to the public. Newspaper ads might mention the New York Drama Critics Circle award if a show had won it, but rarely if ever Tony awards. | |
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| re: Mary Beth Peil in "King and I" was nominated for Supporting | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 07:36 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 07:35 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mary Beth Peil in "King and I" was nominated for Supporting - larry13 05:51 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| There was a time I believe when Best Actor and Actress in both a musical and play prompted people to buy tickets to check out the award winner, at least when tickets were reasonably affordable. Sometimes supporting as well, if they were a sensational breakout star like Gwen Verdon in "Can-Can", for example. For a while when there were some really great choreographers on Broadway, the winner of the Best Choreography award also sold tickets. | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: portenopete 11:26 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
| In reply to: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - DistantDrumming 11:08 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| For me THE KING AND I has always been the best of the 1950's R&H films. Asian-American viewers may feel otherwise but the hackneyed regional colloquialisms - which feel largely invented- in OKLAHOMA! and CAROUSEL feel less intrusive here. And having had a long run on Broadway Yul Brynner is astonishingly at home in the role and, as you say, he was one sexy mofo. And Deborah Kerr's décolletage is amazing! And the polka is basically the equivalent of one damn fine shag in 3/4 time. |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: scoot1er 01:20 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - portenopete 11:26 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| Actually, Shall We Dance is in 4/4 time, not 3/4. | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: portenopete 03:35 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - scoot1er 01:20 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Oops! Thanks for the clarification! | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: scoot1er 04:53 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - portenopete 03:35 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Oops! My bad. It’s actually in cut time, but still four beats to the measure. Sorry if I mislead you. | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: portenopete 01:07 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - scoot1er 04:53 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| LOL. I can't read music so I will defer to you and not complain if you lead me astray ;). | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:01 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - portenopete 11:26 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| Many of the regional colloquialisms in Oklahoma!, as well as the spellings meant to suggest pronunciation, come from Green Grow the Lilacs. And Lynn Riggs knew whereof he wrote. | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:06 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - AlanScott 03:01 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| That may be, but a lot of the same or similar ones also happen in Carousel, and you can't tell me that they speak the same way up in Maine. | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:45 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - AlanScott 03:01 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| "Many of the regional colloquialisms in Oklahoma!, as well as the spellings meant to suggest pronunciation, come from Green Grow the Lilacs. And Lynn Riggs knew whereof he wrote." Thanks for pointing that out. I think the main reason some people have a problem with the spellings meant to suggest pronunciation is that, for whatever reason, they tend to look odd and/or patronizing when written out that way. But we should bear in mind that those spellings are meant as guides for the actors, and if the actors can pull off the dialect in a way that sounds natural, that's great :-) Similar situation in several other works, including SOUTH PACIFIC (Bloody Mary's speech) and PORGY AND BESS, though in the latter case, DuBose Heyward did live among the people he was writing about even if he was not one of them, whereas in the case of SOUTH PACIFIC, both Michener and Hammerstein were outside observers, for whatever difference one feels that makes. |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: portenopete 03:37 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - AlanScott 03:01 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| The same could be argued for Bernard Shaw's persistent transliteration of cockney (and other dialects) in his plays, but in the mouths of actors trying to bring them to life, they often ring strained and fake. | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 10:14 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - portenopete 03:37 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Hey, portenoporte. I was responding to this in the earlier post of yours: "hackneyed regional colloquialisms - which feel largely invented." I won't argue that they don't often ring strained and fake in the mouths of actors — although I'm not so sure they did when these works were new — but that isn't the point of yours to which I was responding. I was simply saying that although they may seem hackneyed and largely invented, we have reason to believe that they were authentic. I've made the Shaw comparison myself here in the past. O'Neill did it a lot, too, as did (as has been noted in other posts in response to mine) many other playwrights and novelists, including Zora Neale Hurston. Of course, I know that you know that lots of other writers did this. You're very knowledgeable. |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: singleticket 01:44 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - AlanScott 03:01 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| It's also a technique that was very common in American poetry and fiction since James Russell Lowell. | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:53 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - portenopete 11:26 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| The hackneyed regional colloquialisms are just as strong in "The King and I", and I'd say they're even worse, because they even more stereotypical and clueless about the original culture. It's a great movie, with compelling performances and gorgeous design, but it is very much a product of the post-War, Colonial mindset of the time. | |
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| 'The King and I' and its Thais to the past | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 01:35 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 01:18 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - Singapore/Fling 12:53 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| ''it is very much a product of the post-War, Colonial mindset of the time.'' I love Rodgers & Hammerstein's glorious score, but the show's depiction of the Thai people is so problematic and condescending. But since they're remaking this movie about folks of southeast Asian ancestry, how about casting some in the principal roles this time? In the Oscar-winning 1956 movie, Lady Thiang is played by a Caucasian (Terry Saunders); the Kralahome, by Martin Benson, a British-born Jew; Tuptim, by Rita Moreno from Puerto Rico, and Lun Tha, by Carlos Rivas, a German-Mexican actor from Texas. (I won't get into Yul Brynner's claims of being Russian-Swiss with some Mongol blood or Anna Leonowens' disputed Welsh ancestry.) Thailand finds ''The King and I's'' depiction of King Monghut so offensive that it still bans all versions of the story. |
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| Link | The Culture Trip: The Real Story of 'The King and I' & Why It's Banned in Thailand |
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| The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. | |
| Posted by: portenopete 04:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: 'The King and I' and its Thais to the past - WaymanWong 01:18 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| I love Rodgers & Hammerstein's glorious score, but the show is truly Viennese False. If they ever remake this tale of Austrians, how about casting some folks of Middle European ancestry? In the Oscar-winning 1965 movie Maria is played by an English woman who was not, in fact, a nun (Julie Andrews); the Captain by Christopher Plummer (a Canadian who spoke with an affected English accent) and the Baroness by an actress with no noble lineage of any kind from Cedarville, Ohio (Eleanor Parker). (I won't get into the Bill Baird's Marionettes' claim of being descended from actual alpine goatherds.) Something tells me that if the old government in Austria circa 1939 was still in power, they'd ban The Sound of Music pretty swiftly. |
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| This is not unheard of in the musical theater world. | |
| Posted by: BigM 03:17 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
| In reply to: The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. - portenopete 04:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Orthodox Jews tend to dislike Fiddler on the Roof, which portrays many of their customs (which they still practice) as archaic and tyrannical. Groups often dislike how they are portrayed by Broadway writers. | |
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| re: This is not unheard of in the musical theater world. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:54 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
| In reply to: This is not unheard of in the musical theater world. - BigM 03:17 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
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| Orthodox Jews tend to dislike Fiddler on the Roof, which portrays many of their customs (which they still practice) as archaic and tyrannical. Granted, I'm not orthodox (though I did go to an orthodox Hebrew school and shul), but I'm sad to hear some feel that way. Yes, the show does deal with changes from "tradition," but I don't feel that it does so in a disrespectful way (i.e. portraying things as "archaic" or "tyrannical"). In fact, I see the story through the idea that without those traditions, the changes couldn't have happened in such a profound way. And the way Tevye struggles to deal with those changes is one of the emotional pillars of the show. The moment when even he momentarily gives in to his own strongest belief, by finding a way to (indirectly) say "God be with you" to his estranged daughter is a moment that never fails to move me deeply. But that points up a universal human struggle that we all grapple with in some way - it's hardly calling the rules archaic or tyrannical IMO. Groups often dislike how they are portrayed by Broadway writers. This is a very odd statement. I don't think singling out "Broadway writers" here makes any sense. How about movies, novels, and other forms of storytelling? Is there something specific about how only Broadway seems to disrespect cultures? |
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| re: The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. | |
| Posted by: JohnDunlop 10:04 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. - portenopete 04:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| What was wrong with Theodore Bikel in the original Broadway casts. He was somewhat Central European. I saw him in The South of Music the day after Oscar Hammerstein died in August 1960. So paying more attention to Mary Martin. | |
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| Even as a joke, your example is based on false equivalencies | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 12:13 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. - portenopete 04:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
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| In ''The Sound of Music,'' Caucasian actors were cast to play Caucasian characters. In ''The King and I,'' Asian actors were NOT cast to play Asian characters. |
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| Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. | |
| Posted by: portenopete 12:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: Even as a joke, your example is based on false equivalencies - WaymanWong 12:13 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Ahhh! Thanks for clarifying! I kinda saw them as human actors who had been cast to play human roles. In none of those performances did I detect a whiff of condescension or mockery in the Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's vein. Naïvete, perhaps. Looked at from a contemporary perspective, of course Asian actors will be cast and I look forward to being introduced to some great new talents, the way I was when I saw Hoon Lee in The King and I (he was new to me, not new to the business). But I refuse to dismiss Yul Brynner's performance as The King just because he isn't considered Asian enough by contemporary standards for a movie made 60 years ago. And to use the Thai government's notoriously strict tradition of lèse-majesté as proof that The King and I is inherently offensive to Thai people is another highly false equivalency. |
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| Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 01:13 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:08 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - portenopete 12:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| ...but the others are still yellowface, including Brynner. Before you react negatively, I think we can value his performance while acknowledging that it is yellowface. I don't think we have to dismiss him to acknowledge that it was racist. That doesn't mean it was malicious; racism exists whether or not there is negative intent (as in the hateful Mickey Rooney performance), because there is negative impact. In this case, there is negative impact on the audience that is deprived of seeing a Southeast Asian/Thai actor on screen; there is negative impact on the Southeast Asian/Thai actor who might have a lucrative career from being cast in a race-specific part, since he is not getting cast otherwise; and there is negative impact in presenting a story about a specific culture of people with a handful of brown actors of different ethnicities, a casting choice that extends past Brynner, in a show that purports to tell the story of that culture. Those are all very easy to recognize damages of the film's racist casting choices. Does that ruin the movie? It may for some people. For others, it won't. This can be a tough thing for some folks to understand, but racism and inappropriateness don't live in a good/bad binary. Many people like to think that racism only exists when we act in ways that are hateful and harmful, but that's not true. Racism exists in the ways that we perpetuate racist ideology and white supremacy, and it is often so ingrained into people that they aren't even aware they're doing it. As a society, we have all been conditioned to be accept the racism all around us, and in us. Racism is the air we breathe, which I mean as a metaphor but also quite literally, as the U.S. apportions cleaner air to dominantly white communities. We do it all the time, without knowing it. Racism is so much a part of our lives that I fully participated in a conversation using the one-drop rule to determine if Brynner was Asian without even realizing how gross and racist that was until hours later. That's wrong on multiple levels, and that's the racist culture that I was brought up in. It's insidious. So of course "The King and I" is a racist film, because it was made by a racist society. It's also pretty great. Yul Brynner was wrong to do it, and he's awesome in it. One doesn't discredit the other. The important thing is that we keep the harm done in the past, rather than the present. Using the one-drop rule, yelling at PoC on-line, and defending the racist choices of the past are all ways that we perpetuate harm, rather than learning from it and letting it go. |
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| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 08:48 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:41 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - Singapore/Fling 01:08 am EST 02/15/21 | |
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| You speak with passion and even eloquence. I enjoy reading your posts. I don't necessarily disagree with the points you are making. There is no question in my mind in the 30's through 80's the people who made movies with Asian themes were not interested in ethnic authenticity. Actors were cast in leading and key roles because they were considered movie stars or box office draws. Regarding charges of racism, I don't believe that term should be thrown around as casually as it is on this board. I'm 72 years old and I don't believe in judging people I don't know personally. Yul Brynner had a 10 year career in regional theatre, TV, and even Broadway before The King and I. Despite the tall tales he told, every reliable source I know states that he was legitimately Asian on his mother's side (Russian, Mongol). Of course, he wasn't Siamese, but if he hadn't been cast as Mongkut on Broadway, the role would have gone to a white actor like Rex Harrison, Alfred Drake, or Noel Coward. Regarding the film, Brynner would have been a fool to turn it down. It made him a movie star. Hollywood was not an equal opportunity employer. If Brynner hadn't accepted the role, the film wouldn't have been made so no Thai actor was deprived of any opportunity to become a star. And what about the other actors of Asian descent who had significant or even small roles in the film? Was Patrick Adiarte wrong to accept the role of Chulalongkorn? Was Yuriko Kikuchi wrong to accept the role of Eliza? Both went on to have successful careers. Yuriko (like Brynner) played the role on both Broadway and in the film. She and her mother both spent years in a relocation camp during the second world war. Do you really think it would have been just to deny her the film role that she had created on stage? What about the other Asian actors cast in small roles? I can count at least 28 actors with Asian last names. Would you deny that many people the opportunity to appear in a quality, high-profile film? I have no idea what happened to them after the film was made, but certainly it was a good thing to have on their resume. Think about it. |
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| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 04:01 am EST 02/17/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:45 am EST 02/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - BroadwayTonyJ 08:41 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
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| ''Actors were cast in leading and key roles because they were considered movie stars or box office draws.'' Among the ''key'' Asian roles are Lady Thiang, the Kralahome, Tuptim and Lun Tha, and they were cast with Caucasian actors (Terry Saunders, Martin Benson) and Latino ones (a young Rita Moreno and Carlos Rivas). I doubt they were ''considered movie stars or box office draws'' in 1956. ''If Brynner hadn't accepted the role, the film wouldn't have been made so no Thai actor was deprived of any opportunity to become a star.'' ''The King and I'' was originally created to be a star vehicle for Gertrude Lawrence. But could it also have become a hit if a Southeast Asian or Thai actor had been cast as the King? We'll never know because one was never given the opportunity. Ditto for the movie. And I think the film would've been made with, or without, Brynner. ''The King and I'' was Brynner's first lead film role, and Hollywood already was making big-screen versions of Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals in the '50s: ''Oklahoma!,'' ''Carousel.'' R&H were the primary selling point. ''And what about the other actors of Asian descent who had significant or even small roles in the film?'' And what about the other actors of Asian descent who could've played the larger, more featured roles, like Lady Thiang, Tuptim and Lun Tha? Patrick Adiarte (as Chungalongkorn) and Yuriko (as Eliza) deserved more opportunities, but like Asian actors of their era, were limited to what they could get. Adiarte's best big-screen appearance is re-creating Wang San from ''Flower Drum Song'' for the 1961 movie. It was a showcase for this dancing dynamo, and he never had another one. Adiarte didn't get to do another Broadway musical after that, either. And Yuriko's work in the film of ''The King and I,'' would be her only big-picture performance. ''What about the other Asian actors cast in small roles? I can count at least 28 actors with Asian last names.'' And those ''other Asian actors'' would largely consist of the unnamed flock of royal children and the royal wives. To count them, you'd probably have to go to IMDB.com because they were uncredited in the film, and that includes Yuriko. '' I have no idea what happened to them after the film was made.'' I imagine these Asians mostly returned to their ''normal'' lives because Hollywood didn't have the roles to sustain them as actors. To me, ''yellowface'' is just as racist and offensive as ''blackface,'' and it's appalling that it was allowed to continue so much longer. |
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| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:53 am EST 02/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - WaymanWong 03:45 am EST 02/17/21 | |
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| Well, the point of my post (which was a response to Singapore/Fling) was to acknowledge the contributions of two rarely talked about actors, Patrick Adiarte and Yuriko Kikuchi, whose performances in The King and I were delightful and added (admittedly not enough) authenticity to the film. As a pre-teen, I enjoyed the film. Although as I got older, I certainly was aware that it was pretty much just a romanticized fairy tale, concocted by a Jewish duo who made popular musicals, but didn't have a clue about the real milieu behind their invention. I seriously doubt that either Adiarte or Kikuchi expected anything more out of the experience than the opportunity to appear in a big budget movie musical, something that both richly deserved and had earned by their talent and hard work. While neither became a major star, Kikuchi has enjoyed a long, productive life, and Adiarte did have a fairly significant career on TV that lasted over a decade. In many ways they were groundbreaking performers who set an example for future performers. Adiarte over the years has seemed like a really gracious guy, who has said a lot of very positive things about his relationship with Yul Brynner and his experience in making the film. I don't think there is any question that if any of the films from the past (with Asian themes) like The Good Earth, Dragon Seed, The Teahouse of the August Moon, The King and I, and possibly others are remade, every single Asian role will be cast with an Asian actor (although some of them may not meet your particular Asian litmus test). |
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| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 08:13 pm EST 02/17/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 08:03 pm EST 02/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - BroadwayTonyJ 09:53 am EST 02/17/21 | |
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| Well, the point of my post was to comment on your response to Singapore/Fling, which read to me like a defense of Brynner's casting in ''The King and I,'' which, of course, you're entitled to champion. But the post also seemed to be a rationalization for ''yellowface'': in essence, ''Hollywood was not an equal opportunity employer,'' so Asian actors should be grateful for the scraps and small parts they were thrown. I guess I'm not so forgiving of a Hollywood system that was ''not interested in ethnic authenticity.'' For decades, Caucasian actors could play Caucasians, PLUS Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, etc. So Hollywood brought us John Wayne as Genghis Khan, Marlon Brando as Emilio Zapata, Jeffrey Hunter as Cochise, etc. Talk about white privilege. On the other hand, good movie roles were rare, especially for Asians, Latinos and Native Americans; sometimes, they didn't get to play roles of their own race, robbing them of their chances to showcase their skills and find fame. Thanks for spotlighting Adiarte and Yukiko. They deserved better. IMDB.com lists Eliza as Yukiko's only real role as an actress, and Adiarte's most notable TV stint looks like it was playing a cabin boy on ''M*A*S*H.'' What a shame Hollywood didn't value actors of color, like them, more. I've little interest in remaking or recasting old ''Asian-themed''films, especially those that did yellowface. I'd rather focus on today's new shows, like ''Soft Power,'' or movies, like ''Crazy Rich Asians,'' ''Parasite'' and ''Minari,'' which showcase stories about Asians, created by and cast with Asians. |
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| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 09:43 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:37 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - WaymanWong 08:03 pm EST 02/17/21 | |
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| I was in a cranky mood last night. When I read your post, it made me pretty angry, but I was tired out (shoveling snow a lot) and wisely decided to wait a day before responding. After shoveling more snow this afternoon, I re-read your post and then re-read my post to Singapore/Fling to see if I accidentally misspoke. Your post is entirely reasonable and respectful (although I don't agree with everything you say). However, I think I understand where you are coming from. My post is not a defense of Brynner's casting. I was 8 years old when my parents took me to see The King and I. The film blew me away. I loved the sumptuousness of it all, the beautiful music, and the performances. However, I was just a child and had no understanding of the casting process or any underlying racial issues. I just knew that I loved the film. I wasn't trying to defend the Hollywood system of casting white actors in non-white roles. I said that I didn't like the way the word racism is so casually thrown around on this board, but that I could not judge others unless I knew them personally. The OP had praised Brynner's portrayal, but said that he should have declined the role because the film was racist. I pointed out that actors like Adiarte and Yuriko Kikuchi had worked hard and earned the right to appear in the film. The entertainment business, but especially movie making in the 30's through the 50's, was one of crassest, unfair operations in this nation. It's purpose was to make money. Fairness, social engineering, and equal opportunity were not part of the program. The decision makers were a bunch of white guys or white Jewish guys. Asian actors, but especially southeast Asians, pretty much were not considered for lead roles in "A" pictures. Nevertheless, no one put a gun to any actor's head (regardless of race). Those who went into the business during those years were fools if they didn't know what they were up against. I don't know why IMDb describes Adiarte's role in M*A*S*H as a cabin boy. He actually played a soldier in the South Korean army who had been wounded and ended up being treated by Alda and Rogers. After he recovered, they assisted him from being re-conscripted. He became one of their scavengers (he was called a swampboy, I believe) -- he became highly adept at "lifting" equipment from other units to help out Alda and Rogers' medical operation. It was a small role, but a good opportunity for Adiarte to show his versatile acting skills. Anyway, that's my recollection. I was a big fan of the series (and, yeah, I had a huge boy-crush on Adiarte). |
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| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Posted by: larry13 09:35 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - BroadwayTonyJ 08:41 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
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| Just a note about Yuriko, whom I had the pleasure of seeing dance several major roles(some created on her)in the '60s with the Martha Graham company, for which she worked for decades. She directed the 1977 Brynner revival of KING & I(the one with Constance Towers). Two weeks ago she celebrated her 101st birthday. |
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| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:11 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - Singapore/Fling 01:08 am EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Too often, race is treated literally in black and white terms, as if there is no room for the shades in-between. So thanks, Singapore/Fling, for bringing balance, nuance and historical context to this conversation. |
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| re: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:27 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - portenopete 12:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| But I refuse to dismiss Yul Brynner's performance as The King just because he isn't considered Asian enough by contemporary standards for a movie made 60 years ago. Asian enough for contemporary standards??? What are you talking about? He was zero percent Asian. |
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| re: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - Chromolume 01:27 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| According to Wikipedia, Brynner had Swiss-German, Russian and Buryat (Mongol) ancestry. | |
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| Mongol ancestry and the creation of "Asian" | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:42 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - Michael_Portantiere 10:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| A connection to the Buryat people, who are indigenous to Siberia, does not connect him to East Asian or Southeast Asian ancestry, which is germane to the discussion of portraying a Thai king. Again, we get into the thorny territory of how "race" is determined and where we choose to draw geographic boundaries to connect people into a singular identity. If you want to create a very broad definition of "Asian" that includes the entire map of the Asian continent and any people who are connected to that map, then sure, Brynner was Asian. But that's a hell of a stretch, especially when part of what made Brynner "Asian enough" for the part were his own fabricated stories of his parentage. |
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| re: Mongol ancestry and the creation of "Asian" | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 04:26 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: Mongol ancestry and the creation of "Asian" - Singapore/Fling 03:42 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Has there ever been a Thai actor playing the role? | |
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| Just re-read this and I apologise for my crankiness, Wayman. [NMI]. | |
| Posted by: portenopete 01:15 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - portenopete 12:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| NMI. | |
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| Thanks, portenopete. I appreciate that. [NMI] | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:12 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: Just re-read this and I apologise for my crankiness, Wayman. [NMI]. - portenopete 01:15 am EST 02/14/21 | |
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| re: 'The King and I' and its Thais to the past | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:21 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: 'The King and I' and its Thais to the past - WaymanWong 01:18 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| But since they're remaking this movie about folks in southeast Asia, how about casting some in the principal roles this time? Wayman - frankly, if ALL of the Asian roles are NOT cast with Asian actors, something is seriously wrong. |
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| re: 'The King and I' and its Thais to the past | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:39 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: 'The King and I' and its Thais to the past - Chromolume 01:21 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| That's the easy part. But casting it with actual Thai or Southeast Asian actors rather than Chinese or Korean stars who sell well will be the real test. | |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:12 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - portenopete 11:26 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| And the polka is basically the equivalent of one damn fine shag in 3/4 time. 4/4 time. A waltz is in 3, a polka is in 4. ("1 2 3 AND...") :-) (Though musically, it's notated in 2/2, but it still can be felt in a long 4.) That's one extra beat of shag per bar, lol. :-) |
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| re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history | |
| Posted by: portenopete 03:40 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This is one of the sexiest scenes in cinema history - Chromolume 12:12 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| My mea culpa is above. But I like your idea of more shag per bar! | |
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| re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 09:25 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - StageLover 08:27 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| I don’t think there’s much of an appetite for musicals as movies right now. If the new West Side Story does amazingly well, maybe this will actually happen. Otherwise I doubt it |
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| what are you basing this on? | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 11:25 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - Zelgo 09:25 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| I'd say if anything... there is at least a notable even if mild appetite for musicals as movies. Whether King & I is one of them, generally speaking I'm not sure what gives you this impression. | |
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| re: what are you basing this on? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:07 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: what are you basing this on? - Chazwaza 11:25 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| I'd say that there may be an appetite for RECENT and headlining musicals as movies - but how often do we see an appetite for remakes of older shows, even bonafide classics? (With West Side Story hopefully a notable exception - but even then there was the recent revival, though that was not part of Spielberg's plan.) There was talk of a new Bye Bye Birdie, but that disappeared. It seems the new Annie just kinda happened without a great deal of fanfare. (We've all forgotten about that one anyway, right?) How did Cats do? (Leaving out any artistic assessment lol). Chicago would never have been filmed if the revival didn't happen. I tend to think that Into The Woods did pretty well, but it's a show that gets done all the time by schools and amateur groups. I tend to doubt that when Merrily appears in some 20 years' time from now that anyone except Sondheim fans will care. I imagine there will be a lot more appeal for the Wicked film, Dear Evan Hansen, etc, because those are current hit shows. (Had Hamilton waited for the big screen, it would have done equally well.) Who exactly is the target audience for a remake of The King And I? With its only current selling point that it will be rethought for a "woke" audience? Then of course there were attempts like The Last Five Years and Hello Again - did anyone who wasn't a diehard musical theatre fan even notice them??? |
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| re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:56 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - Zelgo 09:25 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| I think they also have to find selling points that will really appeal to a wide audience. Though some people will be interested in a version of the piece with a more enlightened, contemporary, diverse take, I don't think that's going to sell tickets to a general audience. Much as I applaud their attempt to try to tell the story in a new way. (Though I also wonder how successful they will be with that, without changing the musical completely.) | |
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| Who is this version of the movie for? | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 01:00 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:50 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - Chromolume 09:56 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| This sounds insane to me. The way they are talking about bringing in the diversity makes me skeptical that they are approaching it with anywhere near the sensitivity required to do it well, or even responsibly. I wish them luck, but the depiction of the King is a giant landmine, in terms of how to make something that will sell in both the West and Asia. And the timing couldn't be worse, at least to make the announcement. It shows an appalling cluelessness about that part of the world, which they are claiming they are going to be more mindful of. Maybe they're imagining they can do romantic musical comedy, "A Star Is Born Crazy Rich Asians", but I just don't see how you get that out of "The King and I" unless you completely scrub the politics out of it, at which point it's a story about a randy dad who's hot for teacher. There's absolutely no way that East Asia wants to hear what America thinks about its cultural values, and it's hard to see Western BIPOC and their allies enjoying a show in which a White lady teaches an Asia man that slavery is bad by showing him "Uncle Tom's Cabin". At that point, who is this movie for? Red State family value Christian conservatives? They're gonna hate it because it isn't about White people. You're literally making a movie for no one. I don''t know, let's see who they get to write it. It's probably gonna be Tony Kushner, but maybe they'll surprise us and get Anchuli Felicia King (who would then be rewritten by Tony Kushner). A move like that might actually work, because she straddles both cultures. But this is pretty much toast if the writer is American, regardless of their cultural identity. Stay tuned. |
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| Bartlett Sher's production at Lincoln Center | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 01:48 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 01:42 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Who is this version of the movie for? - Singapore/Fling 12:50 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| There's absolutely no way that East Asia wants to hear what Americans thinks about its cultural values, and it's hard to see Western BIPOC and their allies enjoying a show in which a White lady teaches an Asia man that slavery is bad by showing him "Uncle Tom's Cabin". The royal family of Thailand certainly doesn't care about what Americans think about its cultural values, you can still get 20 years in jail there for insulting the king. But of course there's a difference between Westerners telling governments what to do and backing it up with imperial might and supporting the human rights struggles of Thai activists against a still oppresive power structure. That struggle has recently been in the news in the last couple of days. Anna's abolitionism in the musical is apparently an invention by either the original memoirist Anna Leonowens or her many adaptors. But Leonowens' feminism and her fight for women's suffrage was not and it was apparently a lifelong commitment. It's also possible that Leonowen was of mixed Asian-Anglo race. Like a lot of R&H musicals there are layers of original material with material from adaptations and then history itself which makes intelligent new rethinkings of these musicals not only worthwhile but important. Important because they're still in the dna of American culture... at least until the day when they're not which may happen. I really liked Bartlett Sher's production at Lincoln Center. I thought it did an excellent job at bringing out surprising conflicts that were grounded in the material itself. I loved Anna singing "Whistle a Happy Tune" on the deck of a Western steamship with its prow pointing at the audience like a gun. It seemed to ask whether the court and the King were the ones who should really be afraid of this cultural invasion. I also loved the way Sher and Michael Yeargan his production designer contrasted that intrusive imperial ship with the statue of Buddha which appears later in the act. |
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| re: Who is this version of the movie for? | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 01:11 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: Who is this version of the movie for? - Singapore/Fling 12:50 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| They've also talked about a re-make of MY FAIR LADY on and on with Keira Knightley, then Carey Mulligan......Emily Blunt will probably be in the next press release. There have also been many releases about a GUYS AND DOLLS re-do with whoever the action star of the moment who wants to be taken seriously might be. It's what press agents do -- for clients, whether they be studios, producers, or actors. | |
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| re: Who is this version of the movie for? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:41 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Who is this version of the movie for? - Pokernight 01:11 am EST 02/13/21 | |
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| Those two options seem much more probable, especially the My Fair Lady. That could be quite the hit if done well. | |
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| re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 08:34 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
| In reply to: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - StageLover 08:27 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| There's no excuse for misspelling and iconic actor's name in a press release or article. | |
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| re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) | |
| Posted by: Manager-561 08:43 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - Pokernight 08:34 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| Well, that isn’t as egregious as the risible 1990s cartoon adaptation. But few things could be. | |
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| re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:00 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 01:48 am EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - Manager-561 08:43 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| Ted Chapin of the Rodgers & Hammerstein Org. says that granting the rights to that wretched (& racially insensitive) film was his ''biggest mistake.'' | |
| Link | 'The King and I' animated film: Trailer (1999) |
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| re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 08:36 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Paramount remaking THE KING & I (the musical) - Pokernight 08:34 pm EST 02/12/21 | |
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| oy...I spelled "an" incorrectly. | |
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