Threaded Order Chronological Order
| The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. | |
| Posted by: portenopete 04:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
| In reply to: 'The King and I' and its Thais to the past - WaymanWong 01:18 am EST 02/13/21 | |
|
|
|
| I love Rodgers & Hammerstein's glorious score, but the show is truly Viennese False. If they ever remake this tale of Austrians, how about casting some folks of Middle European ancestry? In the Oscar-winning 1965 movie Maria is played by an English woman who was not, in fact, a nun (Julie Andrews); the Captain by Christopher Plummer (a Canadian who spoke with an affected English accent) and the Baroness by an actress with no noble lineage of any kind from Cedarville, Ohio (Eleanor Parker). (I won't get into the Bill Baird's Marionettes' claim of being descended from actual alpine goatherds.) Something tells me that if the old government in Austria circa 1939 was still in power, they'd ban The Sound of Music pretty swiftly. |
|
| reply to this message |
| This is not unheard of in the musical theater world. | |
| Posted by: BigM 03:17 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
| In reply to: The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. - portenopete 04:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
|
|
|
| Orthodox Jews tend to dislike Fiddler on the Roof, which portrays many of their customs (which they still practice) as archaic and tyrannical. Groups often dislike how they are portrayed by Broadway writers. | |
| reply to this message |
| re: This is not unheard of in the musical theater world. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:54 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
| In reply to: This is not unheard of in the musical theater world. - BigM 03:17 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
|
|
|
| Orthodox Jews tend to dislike Fiddler on the Roof, which portrays many of their customs (which they still practice) as archaic and tyrannical. Granted, I'm not orthodox (though I did go to an orthodox Hebrew school and shul), but I'm sad to hear some feel that way. Yes, the show does deal with changes from "tradition," but I don't feel that it does so in a disrespectful way (i.e. portraying things as "archaic" or "tyrannical"). In fact, I see the story through the idea that without those traditions, the changes couldn't have happened in such a profound way. And the way Tevye struggles to deal with those changes is one of the emotional pillars of the show. The moment when even he momentarily gives in to his own strongest belief, by finding a way to (indirectly) say "God be with you" to his estranged daughter is a moment that never fails to move me deeply. But that points up a universal human struggle that we all grapple with in some way - it's hardly calling the rules archaic or tyrannical IMO. Groups often dislike how they are portrayed by Broadway writers. This is a very odd statement. I don't think singling out "Broadway writers" here makes any sense. How about movies, novels, and other forms of storytelling? Is there something specific about how only Broadway seems to disrespect cultures? |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. | |
| Posted by: JohnDunlop 10:04 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. - portenopete 04:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
|
|
|
| What was wrong with Theodore Bikel in the original Broadway casts. He was somewhat Central European. I saw him in The South of Music the day after Oscar Hammerstein died in August 1960. So paying more attention to Mary Martin. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Even as a joke, your example is based on false equivalencies | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 12:13 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: The Sound of Music and its problematic depiction of martinet military types and mamas with a gleaming gloat. - portenopete 04:01 pm EST 02/13/21 | |
|
|
|
| In ''The Sound of Music,'' Caucasian actors were cast to play Caucasian characters. In ''The King and I,'' Asian actors were NOT cast to play Asian characters. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. | |
| Posted by: portenopete 12:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: Even as a joke, your example is based on false equivalencies - WaymanWong 12:13 am EST 02/14/21 | |
|
|
|
| Ahhh! Thanks for clarifying! I kinda saw them as human actors who had been cast to play human roles. In none of those performances did I detect a whiff of condescension or mockery in the Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's vein. Naïvete, perhaps. Looked at from a contemporary perspective, of course Asian actors will be cast and I look forward to being introduced to some great new talents, the way I was when I saw Hoon Lee in The King and I (he was new to me, not new to the business). But I refuse to dismiss Yul Brynner's performance as The King just because he isn't considered Asian enough by contemporary standards for a movie made 60 years ago. And to use the Thai government's notoriously strict tradition of lèse-majesté as proof that The King and I is inherently offensive to Thai people is another highly false equivalency. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 01:13 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:08 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - portenopete 12:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
|
|
|
| ...but the others are still yellowface, including Brynner. Before you react negatively, I think we can value his performance while acknowledging that it is yellowface. I don't think we have to dismiss him to acknowledge that it was racist. That doesn't mean it was malicious; racism exists whether or not there is negative intent (as in the hateful Mickey Rooney performance), because there is negative impact. In this case, there is negative impact on the audience that is deprived of seeing a Southeast Asian/Thai actor on screen; there is negative impact on the Southeast Asian/Thai actor who might have a lucrative career from being cast in a race-specific part, since he is not getting cast otherwise; and there is negative impact in presenting a story about a specific culture of people with a handful of brown actors of different ethnicities, a casting choice that extends past Brynner, in a show that purports to tell the story of that culture. Those are all very easy to recognize damages of the film's racist casting choices. Does that ruin the movie? It may for some people. For others, it won't. This can be a tough thing for some folks to understand, but racism and inappropriateness don't live in a good/bad binary. Many people like to think that racism only exists when we act in ways that are hateful and harmful, but that's not true. Racism exists in the ways that we perpetuate racist ideology and white supremacy, and it is often so ingrained into people that they aren't even aware they're doing it. As a society, we have all been conditioned to be accept the racism all around us, and in us. Racism is the air we breathe, which I mean as a metaphor but also quite literally, as the U.S. apportions cleaner air to dominantly white communities. We do it all the time, without knowing it. Racism is so much a part of our lives that I fully participated in a conversation using the one-drop rule to determine if Brynner was Asian without even realizing how gross and racist that was until hours later. That's wrong on multiple levels, and that's the racist culture that I was brought up in. It's insidious. So of course "The King and I" is a racist film, because it was made by a racist society. It's also pretty great. Yul Brynner was wrong to do it, and he's awesome in it. One doesn't discredit the other. The important thing is that we keep the harm done in the past, rather than the present. Using the one-drop rule, yelling at PoC on-line, and defending the racist choices of the past are all ways that we perpetuate harm, rather than learning from it and letting it go. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 08:48 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:41 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - Singapore/Fling 01:08 am EST 02/15/21 | |
|
|
|
| You speak with passion and even eloquence. I enjoy reading your posts. I don't necessarily disagree with the points you are making. There is no question in my mind in the 30's through 80's the people who made movies with Asian themes were not interested in ethnic authenticity. Actors were cast in leading and key roles because they were considered movie stars or box office draws. Regarding charges of racism, I don't believe that term should be thrown around as casually as it is on this board. I'm 72 years old and I don't believe in judging people I don't know personally. Yul Brynner had a 10 year career in regional theatre, TV, and even Broadway before The King and I. Despite the tall tales he told, every reliable source I know states that he was legitimately Asian on his mother's side (Russian, Mongol). Of course, he wasn't Siamese, but if he hadn't been cast as Mongkut on Broadway, the role would have gone to a white actor like Rex Harrison, Alfred Drake, or Noel Coward. Regarding the film, Brynner would have been a fool to turn it down. It made him a movie star. Hollywood was not an equal opportunity employer. If Brynner hadn't accepted the role, the film wouldn't have been made so no Thai actor was deprived of any opportunity to become a star. And what about the other actors of Asian descent who had significant or even small roles in the film? Was Patrick Adiarte wrong to accept the role of Chulalongkorn? Was Yuriko Kikuchi wrong to accept the role of Eliza? Both went on to have successful careers. Yuriko (like Brynner) played the role on both Broadway and in the film. She and her mother both spent years in a relocation camp during the second world war. Do you really think it would have been just to deny her the film role that she had created on stage? What about the other Asian actors cast in small roles? I can count at least 28 actors with Asian last names. Would you deny that many people the opportunity to appear in a quality, high-profile film? I have no idea what happened to them after the film was made, but certainly it was a good thing to have on their resume. Think about it. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 04:01 am EST 02/17/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:45 am EST 02/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - BroadwayTonyJ 08:41 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
|
|
|
| ''Actors were cast in leading and key roles because they were considered movie stars or box office draws.'' Among the ''key'' Asian roles are Lady Thiang, the Kralahome, Tuptim and Lun Tha, and they were cast with Caucasian actors (Terry Saunders, Martin Benson) and Latino ones (a young Rita Moreno and Carlos Rivas). I doubt they were ''considered movie stars or box office draws'' in 1956. ''If Brynner hadn't accepted the role, the film wouldn't have been made so no Thai actor was deprived of any opportunity to become a star.'' ''The King and I'' was originally created to be a star vehicle for Gertrude Lawrence. But could it also have become a hit if a Southeast Asian or Thai actor had been cast as the King? We'll never know because one was never given the opportunity. Ditto for the movie. And I think the film would've been made with, or without, Brynner. ''The King and I'' was Brynner's first lead film role, and Hollywood already was making big-screen versions of Rodgers & Hammerstein musicals in the '50s: ''Oklahoma!,'' ''Carousel.'' R&H were the primary selling point. ''And what about the other actors of Asian descent who had significant or even small roles in the film?'' And what about the other actors of Asian descent who could've played the larger, more featured roles, like Lady Thiang, Tuptim and Lun Tha? Patrick Adiarte (as Chungalongkorn) and Yuriko (as Eliza) deserved more opportunities, but like Asian actors of their era, were limited to what they could get. Adiarte's best big-screen appearance is re-creating Wang San from ''Flower Drum Song'' for the 1961 movie. It was a showcase for this dancing dynamo, and he never had another one. Adiarte didn't get to do another Broadway musical after that, either. And Yuriko's work in the film of ''The King and I,'' would be her only big-picture performance. ''What about the other Asian actors cast in small roles? I can count at least 28 actors with Asian last names.'' And those ''other Asian actors'' would largely consist of the unnamed flock of royal children and the royal wives. To count them, you'd probably have to go to IMDB.com because they were uncredited in the film, and that includes Yuriko. '' I have no idea what happened to them after the film was made.'' I imagine these Asians mostly returned to their ''normal'' lives because Hollywood didn't have the roles to sustain them as actors. To me, ''yellowface'' is just as racist and offensive as ''blackface,'' and it's appalling that it was allowed to continue so much longer. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:53 am EST 02/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - WaymanWong 03:45 am EST 02/17/21 | |
|
|
|
| Well, the point of my post (which was a response to Singapore/Fling) was to acknowledge the contributions of two rarely talked about actors, Patrick Adiarte and Yuriko Kikuchi, whose performances in The King and I were delightful and added (admittedly not enough) authenticity to the film. As a pre-teen, I enjoyed the film. Although as I got older, I certainly was aware that it was pretty much just a romanticized fairy tale, concocted by a Jewish duo who made popular musicals, but didn't have a clue about the real milieu behind their invention. I seriously doubt that either Adiarte or Kikuchi expected anything more out of the experience than the opportunity to appear in a big budget movie musical, something that both richly deserved and had earned by their talent and hard work. While neither became a major star, Kikuchi has enjoyed a long, productive life, and Adiarte did have a fairly significant career on TV that lasted over a decade. In many ways they were groundbreaking performers who set an example for future performers. Adiarte over the years has seemed like a really gracious guy, who has said a lot of very positive things about his relationship with Yul Brynner and his experience in making the film. I don't think there is any question that if any of the films from the past (with Asian themes) like The Good Earth, Dragon Seed, The Teahouse of the August Moon, The King and I, and possibly others are remade, every single Asian role will be cast with an Asian actor (although some of them may not meet your particular Asian litmus test). |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 08:13 pm EST 02/17/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 08:03 pm EST 02/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - BroadwayTonyJ 09:53 am EST 02/17/21 | |
|
|
|
| Well, the point of my post was to comment on your response to Singapore/Fling, which read to me like a defense of Brynner's casting in ''The King and I,'' which, of course, you're entitled to champion. But the post also seemed to be a rationalization for ''yellowface'': in essence, ''Hollywood was not an equal opportunity employer,'' so Asian actors should be grateful for the scraps and small parts they were thrown. I guess I'm not so forgiving of a Hollywood system that was ''not interested in ethnic authenticity.'' For decades, Caucasian actors could play Caucasians, PLUS Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, etc. So Hollywood brought us John Wayne as Genghis Khan, Marlon Brando as Emilio Zapata, Jeffrey Hunter as Cochise, etc. Talk about white privilege. On the other hand, good movie roles were rare, especially for Asians, Latinos and Native Americans; sometimes, they didn't get to play roles of their own race, robbing them of their chances to showcase their skills and find fame. Thanks for spotlighting Adiarte and Yukiko. They deserved better. IMDB.com lists Eliza as Yukiko's only real role as an actress, and Adiarte's most notable TV stint looks like it was playing a cabin boy on ''M*A*S*H.'' What a shame Hollywood didn't value actors of color, like them, more. I've little interest in remaking or recasting old ''Asian-themed''films, especially those that did yellowface. I'd rather focus on today's new shows, like ''Soft Power,'' or movies, like ''Crazy Rich Asians,'' ''Parasite'' and ''Minari,'' which showcase stories about Asians, created by and cast with Asians. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 09:43 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:37 pm EST 02/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - WaymanWong 08:03 pm EST 02/17/21 | |
|
|
|
| I was in a cranky mood last night. When I read your post, it made me pretty angry, but I was tired out (shoveling snow a lot) and wisely decided to wait a day before responding. After shoveling more snow this afternoon, I re-read your post and then re-read my post to Singapore/Fling to see if I accidentally misspoke. Your post is entirely reasonable and respectful (although I don't agree with everything you say). However, I think I understand where you are coming from. My post is not a defense of Brynner's casting. I was 8 years old when my parents took me to see The King and I. The film blew me away. I loved the sumptuousness of it all, the beautiful music, and the performances. However, I was just a child and had no understanding of the casting process or any underlying racial issues. I just knew that I loved the film. I wasn't trying to defend the Hollywood system of casting white actors in non-white roles. I said that I didn't like the way the word racism is so casually thrown around on this board, but that I could not judge others unless I knew them personally. The OP had praised Brynner's portrayal, but said that he should have declined the role because the film was racist. I pointed out that actors like Adiarte and Yuriko Kikuchi had worked hard and earned the right to appear in the film. The entertainment business, but especially movie making in the 30's through the 50's, was one of crassest, unfair operations in this nation. It's purpose was to make money. Fairness, social engineering, and equal opportunity were not part of the program. The decision makers were a bunch of white guys or white Jewish guys. Asian actors, but especially southeast Asians, pretty much were not considered for lead roles in "A" pictures. Nevertheless, no one put a gun to any actor's head (regardless of race). Those who went into the business during those years were fools if they didn't know what they were up against. I don't know why IMDb describes Adiarte's role in M*A*S*H as a cabin boy. He actually played a soldier in the South Korean army who had been wounded and ended up being treated by Alda and Rogers. After he recovered, they assisted him from being re-conscripted. He became one of their scavengers (he was called a swampboy, I believe) -- he became highly adept at "lifting" equipment from other units to help out Alda and Rogers' medical operation. It was a small role, but a good opportunity for Adiarte to show his versatile acting skills. Anyway, that's my recollection. I was a big fan of the series (and, yeah, I had a huge boy-crush on Adiarte). |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Posted by: larry13 09:35 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - BroadwayTonyJ 08:41 pm EST 02/16/21 | |
|
|
|
| Just a note about Yuriko, whom I had the pleasure of seeing dance several major roles(some created on her)in the '60s with the Martha Graham company, for which she worked for decades. She directed the 1977 Brynner revival of KING & I(the one with Constance Towers). Two weeks ago she celebrated her 101st birthday. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:11 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: Mickey Rooney is the most racist version of yellowface... - Singapore/Fling 01:08 am EST 02/15/21 | |
|
|
|
| Too often, race is treated literally in black and white terms, as if there is no room for the shades in-between. So thanks, Singapore/Fling, for bringing balance, nuance and historical context to this conversation. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:27 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - portenopete 12:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
|
|
|
| But I refuse to dismiss Yul Brynner's performance as The King just because he isn't considered Asian enough by contemporary standards for a movie made 60 years ago. Asian enough for contemporary standards??? What are you talking about? He was zero percent Asian. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - Chromolume 01:27 am EST 02/14/21 | |
|
|
|
| According to Wikipedia, Brynner had Swiss-German, Russian and Buryat (Mongol) ancestry. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Mongol ancestry and the creation of "Asian" | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:42 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - Michael_Portantiere 10:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
|
|
|
| A connection to the Buryat people, who are indigenous to Siberia, does not connect him to East Asian or Southeast Asian ancestry, which is germane to the discussion of portraying a Thai king. Again, we get into the thorny territory of how "race" is determined and where we choose to draw geographic boundaries to connect people into a singular identity. If you want to create a very broad definition of "Asian" that includes the entire map of the Asian continent and any people who are connected to that map, then sure, Brynner was Asian. But that's a hell of a stretch, especially when part of what made Brynner "Asian enough" for the part were his own fabricated stories of his parentage. |
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| re: Mongol ancestry and the creation of "Asian" | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 04:26 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: Mongol ancestry and the creation of "Asian" - Singapore/Fling 03:42 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
|
|
|
| Has there ever been a Thai actor playing the role? | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Just re-read this and I apologise for my crankiness, Wayman. [NMI]. | |
| Posted by: portenopete 01:15 am EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: Even as a rebuke, your comment is thuddingly obvious and predictable. - portenopete 12:55 am EST 02/14/21 | |
|
|
|
| NMI. | |
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
| Thanks, portenopete. I appreciate that. [NMI] | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:12 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: Just re-read this and I apologise for my crankiness, Wayman. [NMI]. - portenopete 01:15 am EST 02/14/21 | |
|
|
|
| reply to this message | reply to first message |
Time to render: 0.060593 seconds.