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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 06:58 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:58 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 03:26 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| I have heard rumors that there was talk of Luciano Pavarotti starring in a film version of HAPPY FELLA years ago, and when that didn't happen for whatever reason(s), he did YES, GIORGIO instead! There are debates as to whether Pavarotti was unable to read music (making learning a role that much more effortful for all) or was just incredibly lazy in learning new roles - or both - but I would bet that if Most Happy Fella was indeed in the planning stages, he just wasn't going to be able to learn the role in time. Plus, he wouldn't have had the right tessitura for Tony, and who else would he have played? Add onto that that acting was never his strongpoint, and I'm ultimately glad he didn't try it. Yes, Giorgio was embarrassing enough. ;-) |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:52 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 06:58 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| I mostly agree with your points except maybe the one about the tessitura. As I'm sure you know, Tony in HAPPY FELLA is a VERY high baritone role. I expect that, especially for a soundtrack recording, Pavarotti could have sung all of that music in the original keys with no problem and it would have sounded fine, but of course, if there were a few sections that were too low for him, they could have just transposed them up a bit. | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 12:51 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:48 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 11:52 pm EST 02/14/21 | |
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| Well, that's why I said tessitura, not range. The whole role would lie low for him - not enough of it in the more brilliant high range that were his money notes. They really would have had to transpose to whole role up to make it sit in his voice in a flattering way. Ideally, he would be Giuseppe, the top tenor in the Italian trio, but that would have ben odd casting (unless they got "The Three Tenors" to play those parts lol - but they happened a bit later I believe). I'm sure he got paid handsomely to do the Italian Tenor cameo in Rosenkavalier, but casting him in the trio wouldn't have made sense. But that's where he would have sounded the best. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:28 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 12:48 am EST 02/15/21 | |
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| "That's why I said tessitura, not range. The whole role would lie low for him - not enough of it in the more brilliant high range that were his money notes. They really would have had to transpose to whole role up to make it sit in his voice in a flattering way. " I think I still disagree, although I can't say for sure because, obviously, neither of us ever heard Pavarotti sing any of Tony's songs in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA, either in the original keys or higher keys. But I do suspect he would have sounded great singing most or all of that music in the original keys FOR A FILM SOUNDTRACK, especially bearing in mind that keys for film musicals are often lower than the stage versions because that is often thought to be a better fit for the medium. Look at the tessitura (not just the range) of the title song, "Rosabella," "My Heart Is So Full Of You," etc., and I think you will agree that they are all quite high -- so high, in fact, that when bass-baritone Giorgio Tozzi played the role, he had quite a lot of trouble not with the individual high notes, which were all still in his range, but with the tessitura, i.e., having to keep singing away at the top of his range for most of the show. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: larry13 11:57 am EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 10:28 am EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Michael, first thank you so much for providing the link to the marvelous Tozzi MOST HAPPY FELLA. Secondly, I think the problem with Pavarotti singing Tony has nothing to do with whether he could sing the notes as written or would have required a lowering of the keys. Very likely he could have sung all the notes and in the early '80s was still probably at his peak vocally--which, of course, was quite some peak. And it's isn't his acting which at times was not perfunctory. A strong director and lots of preparation might have made him quite appropriate for this very sympathetic role. It's simply that this role was written for a baritone, especially a baritone like Robert Weede with the required brilliant top, as you've mentioned.(I even wonder if Loesser tailored any of the music TO Weede.)It makes a huge--and, in my opinion, unsatisfactory--difference to have a tenor sing a baritone role. It's partly the sound of a tenor for the character of a older man like Tony. But, additionally, just listen to Domingo sing any of the various Verdi baritone parts he's been doing. No matter what your opinion of Domingo's vocal estate, especially now, the fact remains that Verdi wrote these roles for the baritone voice and Domingo, who can sing all these notes, sounds exactly like the tenor he always was. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:27 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - larry13 11:57 am EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Thanks for your thoughtful response, but I disagree with much of what you wrote. I understand your point that, in opera, a tenor voice is usually associated more with youthful roles whereas older characters are usually written for lower voices, BUT of course there are exceptions -- the roles of Eleazar in LA JUIVE and the Emperor in TURANDOT are two of the many that leap immediately to mind. I honestly think the main reason why you feel a tenor would be so wrong for the role of Tony in HAPPY FELLA is that you're so used to the role being sung by baritones. But I strongly suspect that if Pavarotti had played the role onstage or in a film version when he was in his fifties or early 60s, he would have been completely credible in the role from a a dramatic standpoint and would have sounded great even if they had kept the original keys. And if not, on the latter point, simply transposing some sections up as little as a half step for a full step, and perhaps adding a few optional high notes in a few places, would have been enough to make the role entirely appropriate from a vocal standpoint. Alas, we'll never know.... As for Domingo.....as I'm sure you're aware, he began his professional career as a baritone, and many of us feel that he kept that (wonderful, rich) baritonal quality throughout his career, which is why some of us (certainly not all!) feel he sounded fine in the baritone roles (and excerpts) that he took on late in his career. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: larry13 02:12 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 01:27 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| As I tried to point out earlier(but maybe not clearly enough), I do NOT think the main reason a tenor is so wrong for Tony is that I'm used to the role being sung by baritones.(As far as I know, it has never been sung by anyone other than a baritone or bass and there is a much much greater divide between a tenor and baritone than between a baritone and bass.)The composer--doesn't he matter?--wrote the part for a baritone. Usually, the composer knows what (s)he's doing and for good reason(s). Sometimes composers have altered the music or allowed changes, sometimes with good results, sometimes not. I'm very aware of lead characters such as Eleazar--and many others for older men--being written for tenors.(The Emperor is a minor character.)Tony, however, is in a show that was written the middle of the past century and, in fact, not for the opera house. And, again, Loesser wrote it for a baritone and I think he was right. As another poster mentioned, the sound--and glory--of Pavarotti's voice is not at all the voice for Tony. Yes, I'm aware Domingo started(and is ending?)as a baritone. And that he never had the secure highest notes Pavarotti and most other tenors who sang his repertory had, often to late in their careers. I personally don't think he had a wonderful rich baritonal quality throughout his career nor do I think he sounded fine in the baritone roles he has recently assumed. He IS amazing for someone his age to be able to sing--and sing well--everything he has but, again in my opinion, I don't find this at all comparable to the sound real baritones--such as Weede(and Leonard Warren, Robert Merrill, Cornell MacNeil, Sherrill Milnes, etc. etc.)displayed in the roles Verdi and others wrote for their voice range. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:28 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - larry13 02:12 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Thanks. Again, I do understand but I simply disagree with most of what you wrote, even though you have supported your opinions well. It could be that Loesser felt it was super-important for Tony to be a high baritone rather than a tenor, or maybe not. Maybe if he knew of a middle-aged or older operatic tenor who he wanted to pre-cast in the role, he would have written the part a little higher. The fact that it's written for SUCH a high baritone would seem to indicate that a darker, lower voice quality was not really what he was going for. Oh, and the fact that the second largest male role in the show, that of Joe, was also written for a baritone might just as easily have prompted to write Tony for a tenor as another way to go with that role. By the way, did you by any chance get to hear Paul Sorvino as Tony in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA when he did it at City Opera, either live or in video/audio clips? That performance was, alas, a near-disaster, but (in my opinion) not because his very tenorish sound was in any way inappropriate for the role. I thought he sounded great from a vocal standpoint, so it was a pity that he was unable or unwilling to learn the role properly in the time allotted. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:47 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 02:28 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| The fact that it's written for SUCH a high baritone would seem to indicate that a darker, lower voice quality was not really what he was going for. Was the role written for Robert Weede, or was he cast after the fact? I think the idea that it's SUCH [sic] a high baritone role is subjective, and it depends on the singer at hand. Obviously it worked for Weede. You say Tozzi had troubles with it, but it was also late in his career, and it's a heavy role to sing every night. Every voice is different. I can still easily see Pavarotti looking at the role, realizing it wasn't really right for his "fach" and that furthermore it wouldn't show him off in the way he would have wanted. Maybe there's someone out there who knows what actually happened. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:36 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 02:28 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| By the way, did you by any chance get to hear Paul Sorvino as Tony in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA when he did it at City Opera, either live or in video/audio clips? That performance was, alas, a near-disaster, but (in my opinion) not because his very tenorish sound was in any way inappropriate for the role. I did not see/hear Sorvino, but from what I seem to remember, some were indeed saying that the main problem was that the voice didn't fit the role. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:23 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 07:36 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| "I did not see/hear Sorvino, but from what I seem to remember, some were indeed saying that the main problem was that the voice didn't fit the role." As I've already noted, I strongly disagree that this was the main problem with Sorvino as Tony, but if you like, you can continue to push that narrative even though you did not see/hear him in the role. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:33 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 08:23 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Michael - I'm not trying to "push a narrative," I'm just saying that at the time that's something I remember reading from various sources. I'm not making it up. | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: larry13 02:38 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 02:28 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| No, I didn't see Sorvino in the role.(I guess, then, that at least one tenor HAS portrayed Tony.)I'll look to see if I can find audio and/or video clips. I do enjoy Sorvino's work on the BAKER'S WIFE and CARMELINA recordings, even if he isn't exactly what the latter calls for. Thank you for your comments. As always. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:05 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 01:27 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Michael - I'm sorry, but this doesn't make sense. Pavarotti was NOT a baritonal kind of tenor, the role would have generally sounded low for him even if he could hit the notes, and it wouldn't have shown him off in the way he would have wanted or expected. It has nothing to do with the age of the character, it has to do with the tessitura of the role vs. Pavarotti's "wheelhouse." I also wonder if doing an entire role in English might have been a bit daunting for him - he was not a native speaker and it showed - George (later Giorgio) Tozzi was American born with English as his first language, to contrast. Tony would simply NOT have been a good fit for Pavarotti, which is probably why it never happened. He's dead, and he never did the role, so this is all a moot point anyway. I'd say let's leave it at that. There are enough futile "dead singer" conversations on the opera chat boards, and most of them much more contentious than this. Let's nip this one in the bud. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:53 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 02:05 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Why are you so annoyed or upset by this conversation that you want to nip it in the bud? I agree that we don't have to go on and on, but I'm sticking with my guess that Pavarotti might have sounded great singing the role of Tony in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA, even perhaps in the original keys, FOR THE SOUNDTRACK OF A FILM VERSION -- because, first of all, Tony is written for a VERY high baritone voice, and secondly, the keys of musical theater songs as written for the stage are very often taken down a bit for the movie versions because that is often felt to be better for the more intimate medium of film, and also because there is no longer the need to project the voice to a large theater. (See WEST SIDE STORY and many other movies as examples.) And IF Pavarotti did not sound great singing Tony's music in the original keys, I think slight upward transpositions in some cases would have addressed that issue without in any way betraying Frank Loesser. At the time when Pavarotti was apparently considering doing a film of HAPPY FELLA, he would have been perfect for the part in terms of his age. He would also have been perfect for it in terms of his personality. And as for your comment about him doing an entire role in English, Tony is one of very few roles that would also have been ideal for him in that respect, as the character is supposed to have a very thick Italian accent. And P.S., any remaining discomfort Pavarotti had in doing an entire role in English would have been largely mitigated by the fact that this would not have been a live performance but a movie, therefore permitting lots of time for rehearsal and honing and retakes if necessary. These are my opinions, and of course you are free to disagree, but I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from telling me that I'm not making sense -- as if no opera role or musical theater role has ever been adapted in terms of keys, etc. for a certain artist to play it. I'm fairly certain you must know enough about the history of opera and musical theater to know that this has happened on several notable occasions, which makes it surprising to me that you continue to argue this point and tell me I'm not making sense. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 07:34 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 02:53 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| I'm sorry if my tone seemed harsh. Opera roles are not generally adapted in terms of keys. Some individual arias are. But outside of roles in early operas changed over time in various ways because they were written for castrati, or specific adaptations (by the composers) for alternate voices (Werther and I Puritani come to mind), full roles themselves are not changed. Also, any number of opera purists balk at transpositions, even though they really have no reason to. But most aria transpositions are done because of a particular expected climactic high note (sometimes an interpolated one, as in "Di Quella Pira"), not because the entire aria sits better in the voice. The idea of lowering keys for film is fine - the part of the equation I don't see in your argument is that the voice must fit the new key. The idea that Pav would sing a score in a tessitura lower than he is used to is not at all the same thing as lowering the keys for a singer who sounds ideal in those keys. Chenoweth could do this for The Music Man just fine, because she has that versatility in her lower range. I don't think Pav's voice worked in the same way. And again, the score wouldn't permit him to really take advantage of the brilliant upper register that was his calling card. For someone like Domingo, this might have made more sense. Also, we're talking A LOT of music, not just a handful of songs as in most musicals. I'm sorry to say this, but in this case, your argument really does not make sense. Make of that what you will. I also think that learning a role in fractured English such as Tony might actually be harder, because one would have to learn that specific take on the dialect. Tony's lyrics are not academic in that sense, they are written from the standpoint of an American trying to write pidgin dialect, and it's not necessarily how a true Italian might speak. You're also giving the studio(s) a lot of credit for having "lots of time" for rehearsal/retakes/etc - how much money was going to be spent on this??? |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 08:43 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 07:34 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| "Opera roles are not generally adapted in terms of keys. Some individual arias are. But outside of roles in early operas changed over time in various ways because they were written for castrati, or specific adaptations (by the composers) for alternate voices (Werther and I Puritani come to mind), full roles themselves are not changed." Yes, WERTHER and I PURITANI, and THE BARBER OF SEVILLE is another major, famous example you didn't mention. "I don't think Pav's voice worked in the same way. And again, the score wouldn't permit him to really take advantage of the brilliant upper register that was his calling card. For someone like Domingo, this might have made more sense. Also, we're talking A LOT of music, not just a handful of songs as in most musicals. I'm sorry to say this, but in this case, your argument really does not make sense. Make of that what you will." I wish you would look/listen to HAPPY FELLA again to reacquaint yourself with how high so much of it is written, even in the original keys. In the same vein, I would say that very little of it is written in a lower baritone range. So, again, even if the original keys would have been a little too low to show off Pavarotti's voice in a film -- and I'm not sure they would have been -- only slight transpositions upward would have solved that issue. That makes perfect sense to me, even if it doesn't to you. P.S. I'm pretty sure that two or three of the ensemble numbers in the score, including the title song, end on high Cs for the sopranos. It's not written for Tony to join in on those high notes, but Pavarotti certainly could have done so without in any way destroying the integrity of the piece. "I also think that learning a role in fractured English such as Tony might actually be harder, because one would have to learn that specific take on the dialect. Tony's lyrics are not academic in that sense, they are written from the standpoint of an American trying to write pidgin dialect, and it's not necessarily how a true Italian might speak. You're also giving the studio(s) a lot of credit for having 'lots of time' for rehearsal/retakes/etc - how much money was going to be spent on this???" Now, there's an argument of yours that makes zero sense to me, so I'm not going to address it. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:04 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:02 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 08:43 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Much as I love Loesser, I'm not going to trust him for Italian or English with an Italian dialect. He got "Spozalizio" wrong. It's a 4 syllable word in Italian, not 5. It might have still made sense for the Americans to sing it as 5 (we Anglicize things like that all the time), but the native Italians, starting with the trio who begin the number, would not have pronounced the word that way. That's actually always bothered me. But there's really also no way to change the music in any credible way so that the word could be sung properly. We're stuck with it, lol. I just think that a native Italian with English as a second language (i.e. Pavarotti, not Tony) might have to take extra time to lean the specific way Loesser wrote the dialect, as opposed to how it would naturally sound if he were saying the English words as an Italian. Not such a hard concept to understand. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:21 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 09:02 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| You're absolutely right about "sposalizio" (note the correct spelling), though I would say that even when Italians pronounce it as a four-syllable word, those elided vowels at the end, "i" and "o," tend to make it sound like two quick syllables, at least to American/English ears. To your other point, I expect that Pavarotti would have had no problem learning how to sing, for example, "she was-a send-a me her photograph" even if he wouldn't actually pronounce that phrase that way in his authentic Italian accent. For that matter, if some of Pav's pronunciations might not have been EXACTLY what Loesser wrote, I'm guessing (though I can't be sure) that he probably wouldn't have minded very much, as long as it sounded natural. :-) |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:19 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 11:21 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| Grazie for the spelling correction. ;-) And yes - we as Americans hear the elided "io" as 2 syllables, but a true Italian would make the distinction. It actually would have been an interesting detail if Loesser had set it "correctly' for the Italian trio at the beginning, but did the 5-syllable version for the American ensemble. But he may not have known the distinction (or might not have considered it a big deal in any case). I think we can just agree to disagree on the whole Pavarotti casting issue. Perhaps we could consider the issue of casting Netrebko as Mame instead?? :-) |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:33 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Chromolume 12:19 am EST 02/16/21 | |
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| Yes, or since the three Italian servants only sing the word "sposalizio" once each at the very top of the song, I guess those performers could fudge it and sing the word on four notes rather than five, if that would make you and me feel better. The rest of the number is sung by the American characters, and although Tony himself says "sposalizio" at least once during the show, he never sings the word :-) "I think we can just agree to disagree on the whole Pavarotti casting issue." Sure :-) And FWIW, I do agree with you that Domingo would have been a better fit for the role from a purely vocal standpoint. |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 11:56 am EST 02/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 10:33 am EST 02/16/21 | |
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| Yes, or since the three Italian servants only sing the word "sposalizio" once each at the very top of the song, I guess those performers could fudge it and sing the word on four notes rather than five, if that would make you and me feel better. | |
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| re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:47 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
| In reply to: re: This gives me hope for a film of THE MOST HAPPY FELLA - Michael_Portantiere 08:43 pm EST 02/15/21 | |
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| and THE BARBER OF SEVILLE is another major, famous example you didn't mention. "Una voce poco fa" used to be transposed up a half step. Otherwise, the only "changes" were essentially in the fioratura material, which would have been open to improvisation anyway. A lot of that also comes from tradition, not so much an earnest attempt to "change" the score. But ok. ;-) |
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