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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: bway1430 02:06 am EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - bobby2 12:06 am EST 02/19/21 | |
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| "I think they probably would have jumped at the chance to snub Cats." "They" could have voted for MY ONE AND ONLY if they were looking to snub CATS. The show might be a punchline now but people forget that it was well-received by more than just a couple of critics. |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 06:57 am EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - bway1430 02:06 am EST 02/19/21 | |
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| Thanks bway1430. 'Memory' has lost what an impact CATS made when it opened. It was already a sold out hit in London. Frank Rich saw it there and was highly complimentary. His reservation was Gillian Lynne's choreography, but he posited that with the more skillful dancers available for BRoadway, she could up her game. Which is exactly what she did (Later putting most of the more varied, difficult Broadwaychoeography into the West End version). We had never seen anything like CATS on Broadway. Frank Rich's review of the Broadway production laid on praise for the immense theatricality, and the wonderful fantasy world created in the show. "What CATS does is take us into a theatre overflowing with wondrous spectacle - and that's an enchanting place to be." CATS was a phenomenal success in London, and on Broadway. It was hugely entertaining. Frank Rich led his review by calling it 'extravagantly uneven', which it was. CATS ran 18 Years. NINE ran 22 months. Before you stomp on my head, I do believe NINE is a better musical than CATS. But CATS was an earth-shaking event on Broadway. When CATS opened on Broadway, EVITA was still running, as was JOSEPH. ALW was THE big name in musical theatre, and this was his biggest hit. It deserved the Tony for many reasons, and I think would have handily defeated NINE as well. The only inexplicable Tony in 1983 was TS Elit winning for Best Book. CATS has no book, only lyrics. How is that possible? | |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: mikem 09:52 am EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - NewtonUK 06:57 am EST 02/19/21 | |
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| Even though Cats is a punching bag now, Six Degrees of Separation, which premiered in 1990, has a minor plot point that an NYC socially striving couple would be enticed by the idea of being in a movie of Cats. To do so now would probably be social suicide, but I don't think it's meant to be perceived that way in the play. I wonder when Cats lost its reputation. The Producers is another example of a hot musical's reputation deteriorating quickly, but I think The Producers is now in the "it's okay" bucket rather than being mockable like Cats. I think a non-traditional musical can win Best Book, but the Cats win is absurd for a couple of reasons. One is that there is virtually no plot, and what little there is stinks. The other is that the only credited winner of Best Book is TS Eliot, who didn't really write that plot. It's very difficult to justify how TS Eliot's poems can be the sole contributor to an award-worthy book. |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:00 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - mikem 09:52 am EST 02/19/21 | |
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| The joke in "Six Degrees" is that making a movie of "Cats" is a terrible idea, and the social commentary is that all of these people are huge snobs who hated "Cats" before it was cool to hate "Cats", but of course would completely forget that in order to be in a movie, any movie, directed by Sydney Poitier. Flan and Ouisa's daughter rightfully calls them out on it, quoting to Ouisa her own withering take down of the musical ("Aeschylus did not invent theater for it to wind up a bunch of chorus boys singing about getting the kitty cat heaven", or words to that effect), which Ouisa deflects by saying maybe she was talking about "Starlight Express" - so we get two ALW take-downs in one beat, the height of snobbish efficiency (he said as a snob). So "Cats" is definitely a joke in the play, and Flan and Ouisa are the butt of the joke. |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Last Edit: Quicheo 04:13 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 04:12 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - Singapore/Fling 02:00 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| Your description is exactly right. And, of course, there is a third butt of that joke... | |
| Link | Six Degrees of Cats |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: schauspieler 04:55 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - Quicheo 04:12 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| Thanks - that's a very funny punchline | |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: mikem 04:20 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - Quicheo 04:12 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| Singapore/Fling and Quicheo, thanks for clarifying. I had forgotten that their daughter mentioned their negative feelings about Cats. And in Quicheo's clip, it's clear that Ouisa is known to be disdainful of the property. | |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 09:07 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - mikem 04:20 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| I believe ''Cats'' also comes up for ridicule in Paul Rudnick's ''Jeffrey'' (1993) and as recently as David Henry Hwang's ''Soft Power'' (2019). Alas, the recent big-screen ''Cat''-astrophe didn't help its reputation. Destined to be clawed at, ''meow and forever''? |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Last Edit: JereNYC 10:59 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 10:58 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - WaymanWong 09:07 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| The NBC sitcom CAROLINE IN THE CITY, which ran from 1995 to 1999, featured a regular character, a friend of Lea Thompson's Caroline, who was a dancer in CATS. The musical came in for its fair share of jokes during the show's run. | |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: bway1430 01:22 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - mikem 09:52 am EST 02/19/21 | |
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| I don't agree that a show with no plot cannot be an award-worthy one....COMPANY is also devoid of a central plot compared to a lot of shows and A CHORUS LINE wasn't exactly a plot driven show either....and come to think of it, ditto for NINE. Those were shows more or less based on a central theme or situation that had a thru-line but not an obvious plot with twists and turns. As for CONTACT.....well.... CATS lost it's reputation (in my opinion) largely because it became a Disney-fied piece that got further and further away from it's original core as it ran longer and touring productions started to crop up. ALW noticed the changes when the show transferred to NYC and wasn't exactly pleased (and for good reason) according to his autobiography. Union rules on Broadway dictated a certain number of pit musicians had to be hired. In London, they used only 12 as many sounds that gave it an eerie/other-worldly quality were computerized. The union laws meant that more musicians would have to be on the payroll so the show was re-orchestrated. It lost it's edge musically in the process. Ditto for the costumes. The original London designs were full of imagination with fewer wigs, a lot less fur and make-up that was less literal. John Napier described the original look as 'punky-funky'. That all went out the window once the Shuberts were in charge. So the look and the sound of the show completely changed and what was a strange, mysterious and contemporary looking/sounding show in London became the cuter, sweeter, family-friendly cousin of the London original when it crossed the pond. It started to look a bit silly if you ask me. I wish they had left it alone and allowed it to retain it's original flavor. |
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| Nine has a legit plot compared to Chorus Line, Company and Follies | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 02:05 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - bway1430 01:22 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| For what it's worth there is actually no plot at all in ACL or Company or Follies. While ACL and Follies take place at an event and so there's a beginning and end (the audition begins, and ends / the reunion begins, and ends), that's it, there's no plot or being driven by plot as a musical. So absolutely, there is no reason to associate a good musical as needing a good plot. Nine is a good musical and a concept musical BUT it does have a plot compared to these other examples. |
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| re: Nine has a legit plot compared to Chorus Line, Company and Follies | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:37 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: Nine has a legit plot compared to Chorus Line, Company and Follies - Chazwaza 02:05 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| Those shows also have plots. Any play that has a series of events that influence each other and build through a beginning, middle, and end, culminating in a climactic moment has a plot. The plot may be looser or more complicated, in terms of how the events of the plot are propelling the story, but all of these shows have plots, even "A Chorus Line". | |
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| re: Nine has a legit plot compared to Chorus Line, Company and Follies | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 04:06 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Nine has a legit plot compared to Chorus Line, Company and Follies - Singapore/Fling 02:37 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| A case is there for ACL and Follies... but I don't think it is for Company. Company doesn't have events that impact each other, it is a series of scenes that do not impact each other, outside of the growing emotional impact. Let me know if i'm not remembering it correctly, but there is a reason why it's known as being plot-less. I would also say Assassins has no plot, unless you make a case that the Assassins conspired to and then influence Oswald to kill JFK, rather than seeing that scene as the same as the other scenes in terms of dramatizing an aspect of that historical moment (and the assassins appearing to Oswald are just a musically dramatic way to personify what might have been going on in his head). I dunno... interesting, and maybe what happens in Assassins constitutes a plot... but I also think it's okay to not have a plot. |
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| re: Nine has a legit plot compared to Chorus Line, Company and Follies | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:25 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Nine has a legit plot compared to Chorus Line, Company and Follies - Chazwaza 04:06 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| "Company" has a plot in the way that each of the encounters is driving Bobby to confront his emotional blocks and then overcome them. It's fairly subtle, but the structure of the show (which may or may not be understood as happening in his head through remembering these encounters) pushes him to be more personal and emotionally accountable as we get deeper into the show. I think the long April sequence in Act 2 is really where we see how his character has been developing all of this time, and that leads us into "Ladies Who Lunch" and "Being Alive". The addition of "Marry Me a Little" at the end of Act 1 has helped to clarify this as well, giving us the halfway point in his journey. So there's definitely plot there, but the show isn't working very hard to underline the plot. "Assassins" is more sui generis, in that it's a collage of short stories that interweave, but it is true that those short stories each carry their own plot. But yes, that's a show that I think we can point to and say it doesn't really have a plot. |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 01:44 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - bway1430 01:22 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| "Company" may not have a conventional plot, but it sure has a lot of dialogue and book scenes. | |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Posted by: mikem 04:16 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - PlayWiz 01:44 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| I would also say Company has an arc and a throughline a lot more than Cats does. Cats, at least to me, feels much more patchwork and more like a revue. The Grizabella storyline, which is the only real narrative in the show, is only relevant to a very small percentage of the show. If Grizabella was excised from the show, it would not be that noticeable. If Bobby was removed from Company, the show wouldn't work at all. | |
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| re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 02:42 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 02:35 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Would NINE have beat CATS (if it went out of town the opened on bway the next season)? - PlayWiz 01:44 pm EST 02/19/21 | |
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| If a show has a beginning, middle and end, and follows a set series of scenes or songs, that's still a plot, even if it seems untraditional. A musical's book covers not just dialogue, characters and setups for the songs, but the show's structure. Things don't happen willy-nilly. My bigger issue with Eliot winning the Tony is that he didn't work on ''Cats'' at all. He wrote ''Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats'' as a collection of whimsical poems in 1939. And he died in 1965. If anyone deserves any recognition for the book of ''Cats,'' it's Trevor Nunn, its director who adapted it for the stage. Apparently, he figured out the sequencing of the cats' appearances onstage, which appear to differ from the book. Nunn decided ''Cats'' couldn't be just a series of isolated numbers; it needed a narrative. He took the Jellicle Ball, which Eliot referenced in one of the poems, and expanded it, using it as an annual ritual and framing device. He also says the storyline was inspired by the poem of ''Grizabella the Glamour Cat.'' Nunn said: ''Here in eight lines Eliot was describing an intensely recognizable character with powerful human resonances, while introducing the themes of mortality, and the past, which occur repeatedly in the major poems. We decided that if Eliot had thought of being serious, touching, almost tragic in his presentation of a feline character, then we had to be doing a show which could contain that material, and the implications of it. Furthermore, we would have to achieve the sense of progression through themes more than incidents.'' That said, if I were a Tony voter in 1983, I would've given Best Book to Peter Stone & Timothy Mayer's ''My One and Only.'' I also thought ''My One and Only'' should've won Best Musical, but I guess that's because I've never been a ''Cats'' lover. |
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