Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 09:35 am EST 03/07/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:28 am EST 03/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Gene Nelson should have been a much bigger star - PlayWiz 12:21 pm EST 03/06/21 | |
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| Nelson was a talented, good-looking guy and an amazing dancer. Unfortunately, with the exception of playing Will Parker in Oklahoma!, his film career consisted of (initially) uncredited small parts, followed by mediocre musicals with Doris Day, Virginia Mayo, Jane Powell, and Gloria DeHaven, and then leads or non-leads in low budget, often terrible thrillers and westerns. Eventually he went into television. Just like 99.9% of all film performers in the 30's, 40's and 50's, Hollywood chewed him up and spit him out. Being talented, but white didn't spare him from the same fate which befell most Asian, Black, and Native American aspiring movie performers. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Last Edit: whereismikeyfl 02:28 pm EST 03/07/21 | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 02:23 pm EST 03/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 09:28 am EST 03/07/21 | |
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| Being white may not have guaranteed him a high-profile career, but it did mean he could play types of roles no Asian, Black, and Native American would ever have had a shot at. And his most of his films only white people got to play leads on his level. Thank you, for this timely reminder of the real impact of bigotry. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:18 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - whereismikeyfl 02:23 pm EST 03/07/21 | |
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| There were Asian actors in the 30's and 40's who played leads in films, although their numbers were much smaller than white actors. Merle Oberon was a major star for decades -- she was 100% Asian, but from India (not southeast Asia) as was Sabu, who played leads for about a decade and a half until his stardom faded. Turhan Bey, who was Turkish (and half-Asian), had lead roles throughout the 40's, eventually became a photographer and director, and returned to acting on TV in the 90's. Keye Luke, of course, had a 70-year career in film, TV, and the stage, mostly small roles, some important, others not so much. Once in awhile he played roles like a surgeon, taxi cab driver, and shopkeeper that could easily have gone to white actors. In the 60's through the 80's, he pretty much played every type of character role imaginable. Black actors had fewer opportunities in the 30's and 40's, but the U.S. was mostly segregated back then. Hollywood did, however, make low-budget all-black films for black audiences, beginning in the 40's (I believe). Native Americans pretty much got fucked over in the movies, back then and probably still today. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 09:27 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 12:18 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| I appreciate your giving so much of your own history but your examples of successful non-white careers are not very convincing. Merle Oberon was not 100% Asian. her teenage mother (from Ceylon and of "mixed" background ) had been raped by Henry Selby (an Irish Anglo foreman). She was raised by a British couple in India. Keye Luke had a long career, indeed, but imagine having to play "number one son" and a succession of parts opposite a number of Anglo actors! Various Asian actors did have prominent parts in film like Anna Mae Wong. And yet, when a tailor made opportunity arose to play the lead as a Chinese peasant in THE GOOD EARTH, the part was given to the German Actress, Luise Rainer! A few years later she had to watch Katharine Hepburn play a Bryn Mar Chinese woman in DRAGON SEED. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: bicoastal 07:14 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - Billhaven 09:27 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| According to Nancy Kwan on a TCM interview a few months back, Anna Mae Wong was scheduled to play Madame Liang in the film of FLOWER DRUM SONG. Sadly, she passed away before the film started. Wouldn't it have been wonderful to have seen her do that? | |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 06:21 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:11 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - Billhaven 09:27 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| Regarding Merle Oberon, TCM recently did a short documentary on her career. According to their research, both of her parents were of Indian ancestry. The studio circulated stories that she was Anglo-Indian to make her casting more palatable to a mostly white audience. She was often described as being exotic. There is no question that the movie industry was crass, dishonest, and solely out to make a buck. Keye Luke had a long, successful career, but playing Lee Chan made him a star. He was funny, great at delivering rapid fire dialogue, and so authentically Chinese. He did get to play a lot of key, non-stereotypical roles in any number of high budget, blockbuster films like The Good Earth among many others. In later decades his diligence paid off, the roles got better, and he branched off successfully into TV. He was interviewed for a Charlie Chan documentary (probably) in the late 80's. He was obviously quite proud of his career and never regretted creating and then playing for decades the role of Lee Chan. BTW in this same interview Keye Luke disputed the often circulated story about Warner Oland's true ancestry. Oland and his parents were born in Sweden, Swedish was his native language. However, Oland always stated that his ancestry was indeed Asian, not Chinese, of course, but East Russian and Mongol. Luke states pretty emphatically that Oland was an authentically Asian actor and never used yellowface make-up in the Chan films or any others. In another Chan documentary Layne Tom Jr. (who played Charlie Jr., Tommy, and finally Willie Chan) also stated that Oland never used yellowface make-up and was an authentic Asian actor. (I have these documentaries on DVD and can provide the titles if anyone is interested.) Regarding Anna May Wong, she was a superb actress and had been starring in a number of small, lower budget films. She was rejected for the role of O-Lan, but was offered the 4th billed part of Lotus in the highly anticipated, hugely budgeted The Good Earth. She turned it down. If she had accepted the role, it might have been the breakout part that could have propelled her to stardom in A films. We'll never know for sure. She went on to have a fine, multifaceted career in fashion, theatre in Europe and the U.S., and TV. |
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| From O-Lan to Oland | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 04:26 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 04:22 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 06:11 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| From Wikipedia's entry on Warner Oland, who was born Johan Verner Olund: ''He claimed that his vaguely Asian appearance was due to possessing some Mongolian ancestry, though his known ancestry contains no indication that this was so.'' Swedish genealogist Sven-Erik Johansson has traced Ölund's ancestry back 5 generations. From Lloyd's Beware the Blog: ''It has been established that his family was connected to the "Sami" people today known as "Laplanders". Since prehistoric times the "Sami's" have lived in the areas we now call Norway, Sweden, Finland and the Russian Kola Peninsula. The picture below of a group of "Sami's" does show some facial similarities to either the Mongol, or Tartar races. However, the "Sami" genealogy does not tie them to those two other groups as Warner Oland thought.'' '' Oland made a career of playing ''Oriental'' roles (like Charlie Chan and Fu Manchu). His ''Mongol'' claim sounds like P.R. to boost his ''authenticity.'' |
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| re: From O-Lan to Oland | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:36 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: From O-Lan to Oland - WaymanWong 04:22 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| Well, that's not what Wikipedia stated the last time I checked, probably just a few weeks ago. I can cite several books about Oland that support his claim, but what's the use? We'll just have to agree to disagree about this one. |
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| In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 09:07 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 09:02 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 06:11 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| ''Regarding Anna May Wong, she was a superb actress and had been starring in a number of small, lower budget films.'' And most notably, Wong shared the screen with Marlene Dietrich in ''Shanghai Express'' (1932). Sadly, she was rarely given star roles and missed what could've been her biggest break. Let's not forget WHY Wong was ''rejected'' for the part of O-Lan. MGM had cast Paul Muni (in yellowface) to play Wang. Due to the Hays Code anti-miscegenation rules of the '30s, that meant the actress who played Muni's wife had to be white. And so the Oscar-winning part of this Chinese peasant went to German actress Luise Rainer (in yellowface). MGM offered Wong the supporting role of Lotus, but she turned it down on principle: ''If you let me play O-Lan, I’ll be very glad. But you’re asking me—with Chinese blood—to do the only unsympathetic role in the picture, featuring an all-American cast portraying Chinese characters.” The recent ''Hollywood'' series on Netflix featured this conflict with Wong (played by Michelle Krusiec) and rewrote her story, so she'd win an Oscar. Sadly, there was no ''Hollywood'' ending for her in real life. I wish she had lived long enough to make a comeback in ''Flower Drum Song.'' |
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| Link | Vanity Fair: The true story of Anna May Wong and 'The Good Earth' |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: In honor of Anna May Wong - WaymanWong 09:02 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| Well, at least we agree that Anna May Wong was a superb actress. She was also a very outspoken individual who rubbed a number of powerful institutions the wrong way, including the Chinese government, the Chinese press, and the Hollywood unions. She was a highly principled individual who is greatly respected and revered today. However, in that era, career-wise, actors pretty much had to play the game. Wong, like Frances Farmer, Buddy Ebsen, and (ironically) Luise Rainer all paid the price for challenging what was admittedly a corrupt system. I've read a lot of books about the film industry in the 30's. There are conflicting opinions about Wong being rejected for the role of O-Lan. Based on my research and what I've been told by various film historians, the deck was stacked against her, and she never had any real shot at getting the role. Of course, the official reason given was the Hays Code anti-miscegenation rule, which had a spotty record of enforcement when it was inconvenient for "the powers that were" to honor it. I don't recall MGM having a problem with Clark Gable (as Christian) marrying Mamo Clark (as Maimiti) in Mutiny on the Bounty, which won the Best Picture Oscar in '35. Paul Muni was born in what is now the Ukraine. His native language was Yiddish. His parents' nationality was Hebrew -- their ancestors were indigenous to that particular part of Asia, which by definition makes them Asian. I know that you are a champion of only Southeast Asian actors playing Chinese and Thai roles, and I respect your opinion. However, I am dead certain that Muni never considered himself to be white. He certainly was not European. If you are going to talk about his race, what else could it possibly be but Asian? Last year there was a very powerful discussion about race on CNN, moderated by Fareed Zakaria with Anand Gridharadas as a participant. They talked about how terms like "whiteness" and "Caucasian" have become almost meaningless and impossible to define. They even touched on the word "yellowface" and how it is used in the entertainment business. It was a tough program to watch. Zakaria vehemently called the word repugnant and its use an example of tribalism in which one group of Asians seeks to have superiority over another. I'm just curious if you are aware that these conversations are taking place on cable TV and most likely being viewed by millions of people. By all accounts that I know of, these men are respected journalists. Do you think they are misguided or wrong? Do you acknowledge that Asians are much too large and diverse a group to ever have the same viewpoint about these issues? |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Posted by: larry13 10:02 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| I had to look up Buddy Ebsen to learn about his problems with MGM. Too bad! Unlike my feelings about most everyone else who clashed with the studio system, I have zero sympathy for Ebsen whose virulent conservatism led to his working hard to damage the career of Nancy Kulp, his former colleague, because she was lesbian. | |
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| Buddy Ebsen & Nancy Kulp | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 11:49 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:48 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - larry13 10:02 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| I agree about Ebsen's actions toward Kulp. The cast of The Beverly Hillbillies always seemed to have great camaraderie and gave the impression that they genuinely liked each other off screen. Kulp was a fine character actress and had a long, distinguished career in films, TV, and on stage. She also seemed like a very genuine person in real life. I found it incredibly sad and disheartening that Ebsen would behave so abominably toward her. Certainly Kulp's political views were none of his business. | |
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| CORRECTION: My error -- Ukraine is considered an Eastern European country and NOT part of Asia | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:40 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| Sorry about this mistake. However, the rest of what I stated about Paul Muni's ancestry is accurate. | |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 03:49 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:38 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| In the context of ''yellowface,'' Asian roles almost always refer to Southeast Asians (i.e., Chinese, etc.), not Ukrainians (from Eastern Europe). Geez! Of course, not all Asians think alike, any more than all Caucasians think alike. And clearly, we'll never see eye to eye on Hollywood's racist legacy. With all due respect, I'm not wasting any more time with straw-man arguments and nonsensical analogies (like comparing Nelson and Adiarte). |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 07:51 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:50 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - WaymanWong 03:38 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| You are correct about the Ukraine. I apologize for my error -- I should have been more careful before making that statement. However, everything else I posted about Paul Muni's ancestry is accurate. "Asian roles almost always refer to Southeast Asians." Really, according to whom? Obviously, noted historians of Indian, Iranian, and many others would take issue with that statement. You are obviously pushing a personal agenda. Further discussion between us on this subject is a waste of time. Have a nice day! |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: JereNYC 12:22 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:21 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - BroadwayTonyJ 07:50 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| "Asian roles almost always refer to Southeast Asians." Really, according to whom?" This is a particularly American nomenclature, which is important, I suppose, since the topic here is Hollywood movies. Regardless of geography or reality, when most Americans use the term Asian, which is, itself, a pretty recent replacement for "Oriental," they mean Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Vietnamese...people from Far Eastern countries that would have been referred to in former times as "yellow," as in "the yellow peril." Or, as Oscar Hammerstein II may have put it, people whose eyes are oddly made. (And, yes, I'm aware of the origin of the term "Far Eastern" and am using it simply for clarity here.) The current term for someone from the Indian subcontinent is South Asian. In these terms, someone from Iran would probably be considered Middle Eastern. Again, this is by Americans. The rest of the world doesn't observe much of this and any people from the continent of Asia are Asians. The grain of salt that all this should be taken with should be apparent in Americans labeling themselves with an imprecise word that could apply to anyone from North or South America or the Caribbean, but, of course, doesn't. I have some pretty interesting discussions about this with my European husband who gets confused by all this. |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 02:44 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 02:40 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - JereNYC 12:21 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
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| Maybe it's a generational thing. I'm 72. On a personal level my relatives have consistently used the term Asian when talking about the Korean and Lebanese members of our extended family. My Korean sister-in-law Miyung and her kids (Linda, Lisa, and Kenny) are very comfortable referring to my Lebanese cousin Cheryl and her kids (Billy and Dana) as Asian family relations. A couple of guys from my old baseball team, Nikki Patel (who is Indian-American) and Jimmy Wong (who is Chinese-American) regularly shot pool in my basement (pre-covid times). At least when they were around me, they referred to each other as Asian. Although when they were with their own peers, it might have been a different story. I'm pretty sure my doctor, Syed Hassan (from Pakistan and a fellow theatre enthusiast) uses the term Asian in my presence when talking about his family. A couple of years ago when he took his wife and kids to New York, I gave him and his daughter inside tips on getting affordable Harry Potter tickets. When I'm talking politics with some old college buddies and it's mostly in the abstract, we are more likely to say things like "dealing with the Arabs", "handling the Kurds", and (in reference to China and North Korea) "the Asian problems". So in that kind of situation, I agree with what you are saying (although I never really analyzed why my terminology was different depending on the context). |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Last Edit: whereismikeyfl 09:27 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 09:26 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 12:18 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| Again as you point out, white privilege was very much the way in Hollywood of that time. Merle Oberon had to conceal that she was Asian and the actors who were "out" as Asian and Black were largely excluded. The paucity of examples you can find says it all. What you write is a great retort for anyone who claims that there was no "white privledge" in the arts. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 06:41 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:34 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - whereismikeyfl 09:26 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| The studio claimed that Oberon was Anglo-Indian and described her as exotic. As I've said before, Hollywood was run by white and/or Jewish guys. They saw everything through a white lens so white actors had a big advantage over actors of color, although Hispanic actors fared better than Asian and black actors. It wasn't fair or just and obviously "the powers that were" didn't care about social justice. Nevertheless, I would not define the situation as "white privilege", which is a term that means different things to different people. Most historians of the film industry (that I'm aware of) define "white privilege" differently than the way it has been defined on ATC. I'm not trying to be controversial -- I just have observed that to be the case. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:38 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 06:34 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| "They saw everything through a white lens so white actors had a big advantage over actors of color, although Hispanic actors fared better than Asian and black actors." Which is the definition of White privilege and White Supremacy, both here and everywhere else that I have encountered this conversation among reasonable people. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:06 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - Singapore/Fling 06:38 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| Apparently there has been a lot of discussion about "white supremacy" and "white privilege" on all types of social media (besides ATC) in recent times. I have no doubt what you are saying is accurate, but your definition is much different than what is espoused by many respected historians and journalists of color and a few white guys also. I would say over the last 6 months I have seen at least 3 programs on CNN and MSNBC discussing this subject. On CNN both Fareed Zakaria and Anand Gridharadas strongly disputed your definitions. They also attacked the use of the term "yellowface" as repugnant and an example of tribalism by one Asian group trying to exert seniority over another. It was pretty strong stuff. I believe Bob Woodward and others on MSNBC stated that white privilege should refer mainly to well-to-do white families and not less educated working class whites. Craig Melvin and another black journalist whose name I can't remember (he's a well known writer, he uses gel and white streaks in his hair which stands straight up) referred to white privilege as mostly a myth since whiteness is often more of a perception than a physical fact. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 06:27 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 08:06 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| WHy do you not tell us your definition of what white privilege means? Since we are all out of step, please help us out. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:26 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - whereismikeyfl 06:27 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| I agree with Bob Woodward. That's the definition I was taught when I took sociology courses at the U. of Illinois (1966 -- 1970). I'm not saying that you are necessarily out of step. I am just curious if you are aware that the people I have cited in my previous post have come out so vehemently against much of what you are espousing. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 02:57 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 12:26 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| But you still do not want to tell us what the definition is? Fine. Perhaps you do not want to share it because you realize that a whatever mysterious definition you are using from 50 years ago might not be consistent with current usage. Or maybe you are trolling and if you share the definition your game is up. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 03:27 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - whereismikeyfl 02:57 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
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| No, I thought I stated that clearly in various other posts in this thread. I was trying to avoid repeating myself too much. The definition of white privilege I was taught in my college class was that of white guys coming from well-to-do families, living in the best neighborhoods, going to the best schools, attending the finest universities, and getting the best jobs because of family connections. Bob Woodward and other journalists opined on MSNBC or CNN last fall that this is white privilege. He further stated that white guys from working class backgrounds do not necessarily enjoy white privilege. I've been posting on ATC since 1997. I'm not trolling or playing a game. I'm mostly a serious, straightforward poster. Some times I make mistakes, but when I do, I'm quick to admit them. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 09:08 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 08:06 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| I would add Ibram X. Kendi to your reading list - his writing on antiracism presents a nuance and compassionate way of approaching these questions that I have found very helpful in my own path to dismantling the White Supremacy that I've been complicit in perpetuating. | |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 08:24 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 08:10 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - Singapore/Fling 09:08 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| ''Hollywood was run by white and/or Jewish guys. They saw everything through a white lens so white actors had a big advantage over actors of color'' I agree strongly with Whereismikeyfl and Singapore/Fling, who have been so eloquent in this thread. That's the very essence of ''white privilege.'' Whites ran Hollywood and had all the power. So white actors could play white characters, as well as people of color. Back then, actors of color had no power. They had to fight to play their own race, and even then, only got subservient roles. Actors of color couldn't become stars because they were seldom given star-making parts; those were reserved for white folk. White Hollywood made movies to showcase white folk for white audiences. Minorities meant zilch to them. That's 100% racist. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 12:55 pm EST 03/07/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:39 pm EST 03/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 09:28 am EST 03/07/21 | |
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| Some of those musicals at Warner Brothers Nelson was in were very entertaining A-films, and those musical ladies were incredibly talented as well. For example, "Tea for Two" and "The West Point Story" have him with James Cagney, Doris Day and Gordon MacRae, all A-list talents, for example. I don't know why you chose Nelson to start off into a race tangent. Certainly the Nicholas Brothers were incredibly talented and worthy as well of having more of a career on film. A lot of who becomes a great star is also a matter of politics and luck and knowing the right people and not offending key people. Had Nelson been at MGM (considered the top musical studio) he would have played opposite Jane Powell (her home studio -- she was lent out to WB for the film he did with her there), maybe Kathryn Grayson perhaps (not a favorite), Debbie Reynolds and Ann Miller (Judy Garland having left/been fired in 1950); but that studio let go nearly all these people around 1955 as well, since the advent of tv became free competition, and film studios having to divest themselves of movie theatres dealt a death blow to the studio system. Plus around 1950, the other Gene, Mr. Kelly probably wouldn't have been keen to have competition at his home studio, least of all from someone else named Gene! Especially since Mr. Nelson in addition to being a great dancer, was an ace gymnast and professional figure skater! Nelson's name shows up in the credits of "Donna Reed Show", "I Dream Of Jeannie", and others, and he apparently liked directing. He did a show at City Center called "Music! Music!" with Donna McKechnie, as well as "Follies" on Broadway as well as other theater credits. There's a video interview with him, and what strikes me is how modest and gracious a gent he was, for all his talent and all the hard work that made him so incredible a performer. I think he worked hard, took what came his way, made attempts to get better opportunities, made the most of what he got, and appreciated doing it all. The chips of destiny, politics, who in power likes you and who blocks you, etc., are faced by everyone, in every field, actually. I just marvel at rediscovering him because he was fabulous. I love watching The Nicholas Brothers and Carmen Miranda and Dorothy Dandridge as well. Even folks who were top stars like Deanna Durbin, Miriam Hopkins, John Garfield and Kay Francis from lack of showing of their films on tv can be driven from the public consciousness and are most worthy of being rediscovered and enjoyed again. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 01:11 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 01:03 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - PlayWiz 12:39 pm EST 03/07/21 | |
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| I was replying to your comment, i.e., "Gene Nelson should have been a much bigger star" -- which I agree with wholeheartedly. Nelson performed some amazing feats of athletic dancing in the musicals he made with Day, Cagney, MacRae, and other lesser names prior to Oklahoma. However, according to every critical source I know, those films were subpar, mediocre programmers, not like the classic ones those stars were famous for. Some were watchable, even enjoyable, but definitely undistinguished. One small exception was Crime Wave, a low-budget nifty little entry in the film noir genre. After Oklahoma -- Be honest! -- everything Nelson was offered in film was crap. That's why he went into television and eventually back to the stage. Nelson worked hard all his life and deserved the success he achieved, which was a career of being employed in the entertainment business. I wasn't going on a race tangent -- I made a simple comment which I believe to be accurate. The movie business in the 40's and 50's did not give him any special treatment because he was white. It was an impersonal business -- it used his talent briefly -- he really only made a single, truly distinguished film for which he is known today. When I made my comment, I was thinking of the similarity to the careers of Patrick Adiarte and Yuriko Kikuchi, who distinguished themselves in the film of The King and I. Adiarte had another fine showcase in Flower Drum Song, but eventually ended up on TV. Kikuchi went back to the world of dance, returned to the stage to direct Brynner in a 70's revival of The King and I, and has had a long, fruitful life despite never becoming a major star. Some years ago I saw an interview that Adiarte gave. He spoke highly of Brynner (whom he regarded as authentically Asian) and his whole experience in the stage, film, and TV work that defined his career. He didn't seem bitter about not becoming a star. He affirmed rather proudly that he had a long, satisfying career in the entertainment business. I don't understand the various comments from posters on ATC who seem more upset about Adiarte and Kikuchi's not achieving lasting stardom than Adiarte and Kikuchi themselves are. Anyway just IMO. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 09:31 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 01:03 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| White privilege does not mean that EVERY white performer gets to be a big star in top-drawer films? Surely, you do not think that anyone is making that claim? Or is this just some elaborate troll scenario? |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 05:38 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - whereismikeyfl 09:31 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| No. Of course, I have always acknowledged that white actors in the 30's through the 50's got most of the lead and key supporting roles in films, often playing Asian and Hispanic characters. To play leads, an actor had to be a movie star or considered to be a box office draw. There were actually a number of Hispanic actors who became stars, like Dolores Del Rio, Cesar Romero, Rita Hayworth, Anthony Quinn, probably others. Not many Asian actors became movie stars. Anna May Wong had established herself in silent films, played a key supporting role in Shanghai Express, and became a leading actress. However, the films she starred in were sort of B movies with lower budgets and short running times. She sought the lead in the big budget The Good Earth, was turned down, but offered the key supporting role of Lotus. She refused the smaller role, a decision which probably hurt her future in films. Other Asian actors like Merle Oberon, Sabu Dastagir, and Turhan Bey did achieve stardom during the 30's. Asian actors like Keye Luke, Akim Tamiroff, Victor Sen Yung, Philip Ahn, and others had long careers playing featured roles. I've read a lot of books about the film industry during this period. I'm not convinced that "white privilege" is an accurate description of why white actors had greater success than actors of color. I think it's more complicated than that. The guys who made the movies were all white and/or Jewish. They looked at things through a white lens. Their goal, of course, was to make money and make films audiences wanted to see. Their perception was that actors had to have a certain look, couldn't be too ethnic, or (better yet) had to look exotic in order to play lead Asian characters. This gave actors like Oberon, Bey, and Sabu the advantage over most southeast Asian actors. Of course, this wasn't fair or just. But was it racist or white privilege? I honestly don't know. I'm sure tens of thousands (maybe more) actors were part of the movie making business in the 30's through the 50's. Only a handful became movie stars, most of whom were white. The vast majority of all actors, regardless of race, played extras, uncredited small parts, and other small roles. 99.9% never made it big. Just being white didn't guarantee anyone success or even employment. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: whereismikeyfl 06:31 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 05:38 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| "The guys who made the movies were all white and/or Jewish. They looked at things through a white lens. Their goal, of course, was to make money and make films audiences wanted to see. Their perception was that actors had to have a certain look, couldn't be too ethnic, ..." That seems like a pretty good definition of white privileged as it is applied in the entertainment industry at least. White people in power are more comfortable with other white people, so they ignore and pass over non-whites much of the time. Or they think non-whites will not be acceptable to white customers and so they pass them over much of the time. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 12:15 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - whereismikeyfl 06:31 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| The era we have been talking about is the 30's through the 50's. Back then the term white privilege had a totally different meaning. IMO you are trying to use a very non-mainstream, relatively recent (I believe, based on the views of many non-white and white respected historians) interpretation of white privilege to characterize behavior of a bygone era when the culture, popular tastes, social attitudes, and other factors were much different than they are today. The current film industry has evolved to the extent that it no longer has any resemblance to what it used to be. Of course, you have every right to embrace this interpretation -- ATC is a message board where anyone can freely express his view. I respect your opinion and admire your ability to state it in such an honest and respectful manner. I know that many on this board and other social media outlets agree with you. However, it is also true that there are others who do not. |
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| Thank you, PlayWiz | |
| Last Edit: TheOtherOne 01:07 pm EST 03/07/21 | |
| Posted by: TheOtherOne 01:05 pm EST 03/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - PlayWiz 12:39 pm EST 03/07/21 | |
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| It depressed me to see someone turn an honest appreciation of one artist's talent into a political rant. | |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:45 am EST 03/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 09:28 am EST 03/07/21 | |
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| Did most aspiring Asian, Black, and Native American movie performers have a long if not spectacular career in movies, including some big parts, followed by television and a highly-paid star part in a major Broadway musical? Did any? When we're talking about privilege, we're not saying that white people have it easy and everyone else suffers. We're saying that the system is set up to benefit white people disproportionately, and that it provides white people with more space to succeed even if they don't achieve their highest dreams. From very quick research, Gene Nelson had a good career. From 1950 to 1980, he pretty much never stopped working, alternating acting and directing. Yes, a lot of that was on TV, but it's work, and some of those series have become iconic; how many Asian, Black, and Native American directors directed 8 episodes of "I Dream of Jeannie"? How many directed an episode of the original "Star Trek"? Or 22 episodes of "The Donna Reed Show"? We have vey different definitions of being chewed up and spat out, and I think you picked a poor example to disprove the existence of White Privilege. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 02:26 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 02:13 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit - Singapore/Fling 11:45 am EST 03/07/21 | |
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| You and I have different ideas about what "white privilege" means. That's OK, of course -- I respect your opinion, read your posts, and enjoy sparring with you. I watch CNN and MSNBC a lot. In recent weeks I've heard respected journalists (some of color) like Craig Melvin, Fareed Zakaria, and Anand Gridharadas, (others white) like Bob Woodward opine about the subject. Their definition is closer to my experience. When they speak about white privilege, they refer to the children of well-to-do white families who grow up in the best neighborhoods, go to the best schools, attend the best universities, and stuff like that -- they don't regard working class whites as being privileged. BTW (and not that I'm complaining) but my great, great grandparents came to the U.S. some time in the 1800's from Poland, Czechoslovakia, Germany, and Ireland. They were all laborers and/or factory workers, poorly educated. They, my great grandparents, my grandparents, and my parents lived in slums and/or poor neighborhoods most of their lives, and never had more than a high school education. I was the first person in my family to go to college (and the only one, my 3 siblings did not)-- against my parents' wishes actually -- they thought that I considered myself better than they were. There certainly was no money for college, but I won scholarships and worked part time after school, on holidays, over the summer. When a college education was in reach, I drew a low number in the 1966 conscription lottery, which meant being drafted as soon as I graduated from high school. As a remedy, I joined ROTC (which morphed into being in the army) so I could use my scholarship to get a BA in secondary education. While in the army (for 10 years), I taught high school, went back to school for my MA, had to quit teaching because of conflicts with the army, worked in a factory for 15 years, and eventually got a decent job in sales for a paper company. I worked hard for 31 years as a paper salesman, happily developed an interest in theatre -- seen about 1700 plays and musicals in Chicago, New York, London, Toronto, and other places since 1989 -- moved to a nicer suburb, and made a fair amount of money. Now I have a comfortable retirement. Despite all that I achieved by hard work and determination, all my life I've been called a dumb Polack, but that's never bothered me because I'm pretty happy in my own skin. However, please forgive me if my life experience has given me a somewhat different view about white privilege than others seem to have. Regarding Gene Nelson, I thought I saw a few similarities in his film career to that of Patrick Adiarte. That is what inspired my comment. You're right, Bobby Driscoll would have been a better example. Cute, white kid actor, won an Oscar when he was 12, had a lucrative contract with Disney, but got fired for having bad acne. His career was pretty much over before he was 20. He turned to narcotics, died a pauper, and was buried in potter's field. Yeah, white privilege did him a lot of good. Sorry about the cynicism. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:27 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit - BroadwayTonyJ 02:13 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| Thank you for sharing your story, and I appreciate your point of view. There are definitely ways that the dialogue around privilege fails to consider the needs of people from poor and working class backgrounds (if those are even the right terms anymore), and one of the more nuanced ways of looking at this is to consider relative privilege within economic groupings: so a white working class person from the Rust Belt will in most situations have less opportunities than a Black or Brown person from the upper class, but they will almost certainly have more opportunities than a Black and Brown person who also hails from a poor, working class background. But I fully agree that a lot of our conversation around intersectionality is class-blind in ways that are destructive. And of course, any white person can fail, and any BIPOC person can succeed. When we talk about privilege, we should be talking about groups of people in the aggregate, not specific individuals, and we should not be talking about Privilege as an automatic pathway to success. I think the better metaphor might be having extra time to finish an assignment, or being able to drive in the carpool lane rather than the normal traffic lanes on the highways; small, often unnoticed bonuses that give someone a slight advantage that can add up over time. Someone can have extra time to finish a test and still fail that test, but the extra time certainly doesn't hurt. That's privilege. In the case of Gene Nelson, privilege was that he was able to play the lead in "Oklahoma!", but Asian people weren't able to play the leads in "The King and I", though things got a bit better with "Flower Drum Song". Privilege is a lot about access, and Nelson had more access where BIPOC artists had less access. (Also, did you mean Patrick Adiarte? I just Googled him, and he is neither White nor dead... though he did play the Prince in "King and I", which made him the only Asian performer to have a prominent role in the movie.) In terms of your life, I get the sense that you're from a background where you weren't considered "White" when you were growing up, instead being seen as an Other and receiving a version of the prejudice that this country directs towards BIPOC people, but now the cultural definition of White has grown to include people from your background, and perhaps there's a sense that people are holding your Whiteness against you now in the way that other people held being Polish against you then. That's terrible all around. There is a tendency for some activist to flatten and erase the historical prejudices of this country, and I'm sorry if you're experiencing that. I can see why those experiences would make you think that privilege is a bunch of bunk (especially as some people weaponize it to dismiss the achievements of hard working people), but if we acknowledge the barriers that non-White people have faced in this country, then we also have to acknowledge that other people benefited from those barriers, and that's White privilege. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 04:58 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit - Singapore/Fling 01:27 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| I appreciate your detailed and respectful response. All that I can say is that "whiteness" or "white privilege" is more complicated than the way those terms are used on ATC. My skin tone is pretty white, although that is not true of some of my aunts, uncles, and cousins. Everyone from the Irish and Polish part of the family are very white. However, some of my family from the German and Czech part are much less white-looking and even a little dark. As kids we used to joke about it, even laughing that one of my cousins was the black sheep or the dark one of the family. There were stories from my German grandfather's siblings that generations earlier, we must have gotten some Hebrew blood mixed in with the German. Also, from 1948 through 1992 my family lived in Chicago suburbs that were regarded as less desirable. My dad was an electrical worker, my mom was a factory secretary, neither was well educated. Even after graduating from college and getting a master's degree, I was regarded as an "other", most likely because of my background. This never bothered me and never hindered my advancement -- I always had a lot of drive and self-assurance. However, my brothers and other members of my family all suffer from low self-esteem. As I've mentioned a few times before, my current extended family is now about one third white, one third Hispanic, and one third Asian. The Hispanic part is about half Mexican and half Cuban. The Asian part is about half Korean and half Lebanese. When we all get together, I get to hear a lot of opinions and points of view. Regarding Patrick Adiarte, you and I sparred a few weeks ago about the casting of Adiarte as Chulalongkorn in the film of The King and I. I had argued that the opportunity given to him and Yuriko Kikuchi in the film was a good reason for Brynner getting the role of Mongkut because without Brynner, the film would not have been made. In yesterday's post I said that I had seen some similarities between Adiarte's career and that of Gene Nelson. Another bone of contention on ATC is the litmus test some here have for who is considered Asian or Asian enough to play Asian roles. My opinion has been that (at least in the 50's) the casting of actors like Brynner (who is East Russian and Buryat on his mother side) and also Martin Benson, who is of Russian and Hebrew ancestry, was appropriate. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 06:36 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit - BroadwayTonyJ 04:58 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| I don't think I was part of that conversation about Adiarte, though I am still curious which actor you were thinking of who was a child star and then died after developing acne. In terms of being Asian enough, as I wrote at the time, we get into some very difficult territory that verges on the White supremacist notion of "one drop" to determine who is or isn't Asian. But I don't think any definition of who is appropriate to play Thai/Southeast Asian should be so loose as to include Russian Jews and someone whose mother was mixed race with ancestral connections to Siberian Mongol tribes. I think this was only considered appropriate in the 1950s because these actors were regarded as "foreign", which was to say anything that deviated from White/Western European. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 07:42 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:40 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit - Singapore/Fling 06:36 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| A few weeks ago, you posted something like since the film of The King and I was going to be somewhat racist, Brynner should have turned it down so a more appropriate Asian actor could get the role. I argued that Rodgers was calling the shots and that Brynner would be the king. I brought up the names of Patrick Adiarte and Yuriko Kikuchi, who both gave stunning performances. I told you this film undoubtedly helped their careers. Both had played the roles on Broadway and deserved the opportunity to appear in the film. I said for this reason alone the film should be made and asked you to reconsider about calling it racist. Something like that. I've read a lot about the movie industry back in the 50's and earlier. I know this is going to sound awful but back then the "powers that were" generally favored Asian actors who were Russian, Mongol, Armenian, Indian, but rarely southeast Asian. They wanted an Asian look, but not too ethnic. Brynner, of course, was a great actor and he had the right look, one that would probably please a mostly white audience. I believe Richard Rodgers back in '51 was being truthful (in his own mind) when he stated that Yul Brynner was an Asian actor. Bobby Driscoll was a popular child actor in the 40's. He made some films for Disney, won a juvenile Oscar for The Window in '49, and then Disney starred him in Treasure Island and the voice of the title character in the animated Peter Pan. He also played the lead role of Bibi in The Happy Time. As he entered puberty, he developed a bad case of acne, which eventually resulted in Disney cancelling his contract. The roles began to dry up, he tried TV for awhile, but he turned to drugs and the rest wasn't very pretty. I would not characterize any of the decisions that the "powers that were" made in these instances as white supremacist or examples of white privilege, but I respect your passion and opinions. Of course, since that time the culture has evolved, audiences today no longer want fairy tales or romanticism for films depicting Asian characters. In the remake of The King and I all the Thai characters will be cast with Southeast Asian actors or the film will not be made. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 09:05 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit - BroadwayTonyJ 07:40 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| I think you night have had that specific conversation with somebody else. I posted in that thread, but I didn't write that Brynner should have turned the part down. I was arguing for a middle ground, where we can respect the film for what it is and also recognize that it reflected the racism of the time. I also wrote about how we don't have to get caught up in binaries of good versus bad, and that acknowledging the film is racist doesn't mean we can't appreciate the film. Likewise, the film could have been positive for the careers of two Asian actors while also being a racist movie. Those two things can exist, and that's okay. The first step to becoming antiracist is to recognize that racism that we all live with and perpetuate. | |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 09:46 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:45 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- Yes "White Privilege" Benefit - Singapore/Fling 09:05 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| I responded to that specific post of yours. Another ATC-er replied to my post. Gradually the thread morphed into a discussion about Patrick Adiarte and Yuriko. You did not participate in the rest of the thread. It's been a few weeks and I'm sure I got some of your exact words wrong. However, I definitely responded to what you are stating in your post above. I agree that there is racism in all aspects of our society. I'm just not that comfortable with going back to the 30's, 40's, and 50's and characterizing the actions of the moviemakers of that era as racist or examples of white privilege. I would rather say what they did was wrong, unfair, unjust, or words to that effect. |
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