Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 09:27 am EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 12:18 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| I appreciate your giving so much of your own history but your examples of successful non-white careers are not very convincing. Merle Oberon was not 100% Asian. her teenage mother (from Ceylon and of "mixed" background ) had been raped by Henry Selby (an Irish Anglo foreman). She was raised by a British couple in India. Keye Luke had a long career, indeed, but imagine having to play "number one son" and a succession of parts opposite a number of Anglo actors! Various Asian actors did have prominent parts in film like Anna Mae Wong. And yet, when a tailor made opportunity arose to play the lead as a Chinese peasant in THE GOOD EARTH, the part was given to the German Actress, Luise Rainer! A few years later she had to watch Katharine Hepburn play a Bryn Mar Chinese woman in DRAGON SEED. |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Posted by: bicoastal 07:14 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - Billhaven 09:27 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| According to Nancy Kwan on a TCM interview a few months back, Anna Mae Wong was scheduled to play Madame Liang in the film of FLOWER DRUM SONG. Sadly, she passed away before the film started. Wouldn't it have been wonderful to have seen her do that? | |
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| re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 06:21 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 06:11 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - Billhaven 09:27 am EST 03/08/21 | |
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| Regarding Merle Oberon, TCM recently did a short documentary on her career. According to their research, both of her parents were of Indian ancestry. The studio circulated stories that she was Anglo-Indian to make her casting more palatable to a mostly white audience. She was often described as being exotic. There is no question that the movie industry was crass, dishonest, and solely out to make a buck. Keye Luke had a long, successful career, but playing Lee Chan made him a star. He was funny, great at delivering rapid fire dialogue, and so authentically Chinese. He did get to play a lot of key, non-stereotypical roles in any number of high budget, blockbuster films like The Good Earth among many others. In later decades his diligence paid off, the roles got better, and he branched off successfully into TV. He was interviewed for a Charlie Chan documentary (probably) in the late 80's. He was obviously quite proud of his career and never regretted creating and then playing for decades the role of Lee Chan. BTW in this same interview Keye Luke disputed the often circulated story about Warner Oland's true ancestry. Oland and his parents were born in Sweden, Swedish was his native language. However, Oland always stated that his ancestry was indeed Asian, not Chinese, of course, but East Russian and Mongol. Luke states pretty emphatically that Oland was an authentically Asian actor and never used yellowface make-up in the Chan films or any others. In another Chan documentary Layne Tom Jr. (who played Charlie Jr., Tommy, and finally Willie Chan) also stated that Oland never used yellowface make-up and was an authentic Asian actor. (I have these documentaries on DVD and can provide the titles if anyone is interested.) Regarding Anna May Wong, she was a superb actress and had been starring in a number of small, lower budget films. She was rejected for the role of O-Lan, but was offered the 4th billed part of Lotus in the highly anticipated, hugely budgeted The Good Earth. She turned it down. If she had accepted the role, it might have been the breakout part that could have propelled her to stardom in A films. We'll never know for sure. She went on to have a fine, multifaceted career in fashion, theatre in Europe and the U.S., and TV. |
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| From O-Lan to Oland | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 04:26 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 04:22 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 06:11 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| From Wikipedia's entry on Warner Oland, who was born Johan Verner Olund: ''He claimed that his vaguely Asian appearance was due to possessing some Mongolian ancestry, though his known ancestry contains no indication that this was so.'' Swedish genealogist Sven-Erik Johansson has traced Ölund's ancestry back 5 generations. From Lloyd's Beware the Blog: ''It has been established that his family was connected to the "Sami" people today known as "Laplanders". Since prehistoric times the "Sami's" have lived in the areas we now call Norway, Sweden, Finland and the Russian Kola Peninsula. The picture below of a group of "Sami's" does show some facial similarities to either the Mongol, or Tartar races. However, the "Sami" genealogy does not tie them to those two other groups as Warner Oland thought.'' '' Oland made a career of playing ''Oriental'' roles (like Charlie Chan and Fu Manchu). His ''Mongol'' claim sounds like P.R. to boost his ''authenticity.'' |
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| re: From O-Lan to Oland | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:36 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: From O-Lan to Oland - WaymanWong 04:22 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| Well, that's not what Wikipedia stated the last time I checked, probably just a few weeks ago. I can cite several books about Oland that support his claim, but what's the use? We'll just have to agree to disagree about this one. |
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| In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 09:07 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 09:02 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Gene Nelson -- No "White Privilege" Benefit? - BroadwayTonyJ 06:11 pm EST 03/08/21 | |
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| ''Regarding Anna May Wong, she was a superb actress and had been starring in a number of small, lower budget films.'' And most notably, Wong shared the screen with Marlene Dietrich in ''Shanghai Express'' (1932). Sadly, she was rarely given star roles and missed what could've been her biggest break. Let's not forget WHY Wong was ''rejected'' for the part of O-Lan. MGM had cast Paul Muni (in yellowface) to play Wang. Due to the Hays Code anti-miscegenation rules of the '30s, that meant the actress who played Muni's wife had to be white. And so the Oscar-winning part of this Chinese peasant went to German actress Luise Rainer (in yellowface). MGM offered Wong the supporting role of Lotus, but she turned it down on principle: ''If you let me play O-Lan, I’ll be very glad. But you’re asking me—with Chinese blood—to do the only unsympathetic role in the picture, featuring an all-American cast portraying Chinese characters.” The recent ''Hollywood'' series on Netflix featured this conflict with Wong (played by Michelle Krusiec) and rewrote her story, so she'd win an Oscar. Sadly, there was no ''Hollywood'' ending for her in real life. I wish she had lived long enough to make a comeback in ''Flower Drum Song.'' |
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| Link | Vanity Fair: The true story of Anna May Wong and 'The Good Earth' |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: In honor of Anna May Wong - WaymanWong 09:02 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| Well, at least we agree that Anna May Wong was a superb actress. She was also a very outspoken individual who rubbed a number of powerful institutions the wrong way, including the Chinese government, the Chinese press, and the Hollywood unions. She was a highly principled individual who is greatly respected and revered today. However, in that era, career-wise, actors pretty much had to play the game. Wong, like Frances Farmer, Buddy Ebsen, and (ironically) Luise Rainer all paid the price for challenging what was admittedly a corrupt system. I've read a lot of books about the film industry in the 30's. There are conflicting opinions about Wong being rejected for the role of O-Lan. Based on my research and what I've been told by various film historians, the deck was stacked against her, and she never had any real shot at getting the role. Of course, the official reason given was the Hays Code anti-miscegenation rule, which had a spotty record of enforcement when it was inconvenient for "the powers that were" to honor it. I don't recall MGM having a problem with Clark Gable (as Christian) marrying Mamo Clark (as Maimiti) in Mutiny on the Bounty, which won the Best Picture Oscar in '35. Paul Muni was born in what is now the Ukraine. His native language was Yiddish. His parents' nationality was Hebrew -- their ancestors were indigenous to that particular part of Asia, which by definition makes them Asian. I know that you are a champion of only Southeast Asian actors playing Chinese and Thai roles, and I respect your opinion. However, I am dead certain that Muni never considered himself to be white. He certainly was not European. If you are going to talk about his race, what else could it possibly be but Asian? Last year there was a very powerful discussion about race on CNN, moderated by Fareed Zakaria with Anand Gridharadas as a participant. They talked about how terms like "whiteness" and "Caucasian" have become almost meaningless and impossible to define. They even touched on the word "yellowface" and how it is used in the entertainment business. It was a tough program to watch. Zakaria vehemently called the word repugnant and its use an example of tribalism in which one group of Asians seeks to have superiority over another. I'm just curious if you are aware that these conversations are taking place on cable TV and most likely being viewed by millions of people. By all accounts that I know of, these men are respected journalists. Do you think they are misguided or wrong? Do you acknowledge that Asians are much too large and diverse a group to ever have the same viewpoint about these issues? |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Posted by: larry13 10:02 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| I had to look up Buddy Ebsen to learn about his problems with MGM. Too bad! Unlike my feelings about most everyone else who clashed with the studio system, I have zero sympathy for Ebsen whose virulent conservatism led to his working hard to damage the career of Nancy Kulp, his former colleague, because she was lesbian. | |
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| Buddy Ebsen & Nancy Kulp | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 11:49 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 11:48 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - larry13 10:02 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| I agree about Ebsen's actions toward Kulp. The cast of The Beverly Hillbillies always seemed to have great camaraderie and gave the impression that they genuinely liked each other off screen. Kulp was a fine character actress and had a long, distinguished career in films, TV, and on stage. She also seemed like a very genuine person in real life. I found it incredibly sad and disheartening that Ebsen would behave so abominably toward her. Certainly Kulp's political views were none of his business. | |
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| CORRECTION: My error -- Ukraine is considered an Eastern European country and NOT part of Asia | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:40 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| Sorry about this mistake. However, the rest of what I stated about Paul Muni's ancestry is accurate. | |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: WaymanWong 03:49 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: WaymanWong 03:38 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - BroadwayTonyJ 02:37 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| In the context of ''yellowface,'' Asian roles almost always refer to Southeast Asians (i.e., Chinese, etc.), not Ukrainians (from Eastern Europe). Geez! Of course, not all Asians think alike, any more than all Caucasians think alike. And clearly, we'll never see eye to eye on Hollywood's racist legacy. With all due respect, I'm not wasting any more time with straw-man arguments and nonsensical analogies (like comparing Nelson and Adiarte). |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 07:51 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 07:50 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - WaymanWong 03:38 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| You are correct about the Ukraine. I apologize for my error -- I should have been more careful before making that statement. However, everything else I posted about Paul Muni's ancestry is accurate. "Asian roles almost always refer to Southeast Asians." Really, according to whom? Obviously, noted historians of Indian, Iranian, and many others would take issue with that statement. You are obviously pushing a personal agenda. Further discussion between us on this subject is a waste of time. Have a nice day! |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: JereNYC 12:22 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 12:21 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - BroadwayTonyJ 07:50 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| "Asian roles almost always refer to Southeast Asians." Really, according to whom?" This is a particularly American nomenclature, which is important, I suppose, since the topic here is Hollywood movies. Regardless of geography or reality, when most Americans use the term Asian, which is, itself, a pretty recent replacement for "Oriental," they mean Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Vietnamese...people from Far Eastern countries that would have been referred to in former times as "yellow," as in "the yellow peril." Or, as Oscar Hammerstein II may have put it, people whose eyes are oddly made. (And, yes, I'm aware of the origin of the term "Far Eastern" and am using it simply for clarity here.) The current term for someone from the Indian subcontinent is South Asian. In these terms, someone from Iran would probably be considered Middle Eastern. Again, this is by Americans. The rest of the world doesn't observe much of this and any people from the continent of Asia are Asians. The grain of salt that all this should be taken with should be apparent in Americans labeling themselves with an imprecise word that could apply to anyone from North or South America or the Caribbean, but, of course, doesn't. I have some pretty interesting discussions about this with my European husband who gets confused by all this. |
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| re: In honor of Anna May Wong | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 02:44 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 02:40 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In honor of Anna May Wong - JereNYC 12:21 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
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| Maybe it's a generational thing. I'm 72. On a personal level my relatives have consistently used the term Asian when talking about the Korean and Lebanese members of our extended family. My Korean sister-in-law Miyung and her kids (Linda, Lisa, and Kenny) are very comfortable referring to my Lebanese cousin Cheryl and her kids (Billy and Dana) as Asian family relations. A couple of guys from my old baseball team, Nikki Patel (who is Indian-American) and Jimmy Wong (who is Chinese-American) regularly shot pool in my basement (pre-covid times). At least when they were around me, they referred to each other as Asian. Although when they were with their own peers, it might have been a different story. I'm pretty sure my doctor, Syed Hassan (from Pakistan and a fellow theatre enthusiast) uses the term Asian in my presence when talking about his family. A couple of years ago when he took his wife and kids to New York, I gave him and his daughter inside tips on getting affordable Harry Potter tickets. When I'm talking politics with some old college buddies and it's mostly in the abstract, we are more likely to say things like "dealing with the Arabs", "handling the Kurds", and (in reference to China and North Korea) "the Asian problems". So in that kind of situation, I agree with what you are saying (although I never really analyzed why my terminology was different depending on the context). |
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