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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Posted by: Chazwaza 05:18 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| In reply to: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - JereNYC 11:45 am EST 03/09/21 | |
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| in no way defending the kidnapping or the way it's played in the film (I haven't seen it on stage)... if the women don't go against there will, doesn't that mess up the rest of the plot. After the kidnapping Jane Powell has to get mad at Adam for his part and that makes him go away for the winer, and that's when Powell and the woman start to warm to the brothers and their bonds develop (in theory), plus the baby thing that helps bring Adam around to how a girl should be treated. If you take away that conflict then it's just them running away, and needing someone to marry them officially. And for as contradictory as it is, before the upsetting kidnapping scene, i do remember the movie painting that the women like and choose the brothers over the men they're promised to, right? At the dance and after? I think the film thinks it's setting you up to believe the women want to go with the brothers but the brothers go about it the wrong way (partly due to them being mountain men with no manners or good raising). I think you could have an interesting new story for the women in town being promised to men they don't like, running off with the brothers, and the town men and townsfolk want to storm the brother's house to get them back ... but the avalanche keep the pathway cutoff, and in the winter months the couples realize they don't know each other and it was just the first attraction/response to being promised to men they didnt choose. Now the men (as guided by Powell) have to re-woo and court the women, and many realize they're with the wrong brother and all switch around... just in time for winter to be done and the townsfolk come up to hang the brothers and take back the women... and then the townsmen have a shot to make a case for themselves? And the women get to choose properly between the brothers and men? I dunno... But it requires a LOT of changes and total rewriting of the last 1/3 of the musical at least. Which is great except's not at all worth re-making or staging on stage again... it's so of its time, to me it's just a fascinating time capsule of that era of movie musicals. |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:27 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - Chazwaza 05:18 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| "I think the film thinks it's setting you up to believe the women want to go with the brothers but the brothers go about it the wrong way (partly due to them being mountain men with no manners or good raising)." Yes, that is a vital aspect of the film that a lot of people forget or ignore in discussing how politically incorrect it is today. The point is supposed to be that all of those women WANT to be with the Pontipee brothers, rather than the townsmen to whom they have been promised even though they don't love them, but the social constructs of the time prohibit the women from making their own choices on whom to marry. And that's why the brothers make the horrendous decision that what they need to do is kidnap the women, because that's the only way to get them. So it's quite a complicated little story, because the men do something terrible and heinous in order to achieve what the women (and the men) want but can't get any other way. P.S., not long ago I finally read the short story on which SEVEN BRIDES is based, and -- wait for it! -- in that story, it's Millie (the Jane Powell character) who suggests to the brothers that they kidnap the women!!!! So, as much as some people hate the movie for the kidnapping plot, that whole sequence was rewritten to make it at least a little more palatable than it was in the source material. |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 08:01 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - Chazwaza 05:18 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| I think you have the basics here, Chazwaza. What we need to remember is that the basis for this musical is a parody of a tale from the founding days of Rome (i.e., even before the Republic; we’re talking Romulus here, folks, the stuff of LEGENDS...and peeps, I did this stuff in grad school, so I could sit here and type, like Adolfo, for hours....). Plutarch and Livy and Ovid and a bunch of other old Roman types have handed down the secret of how Rome got so great: they needed women, so they raided the Sabines next door, and took a lot of their women. But, the learned Romans tell us, when the Sabine guys showed up to bring ‘em back, they wanted to stay with their new Roman boyfriends. Because. Rome. Anyhow, this cheery legend of rape and pillage exists in multiple sources (I had to translate the Livy for my many sins). And Stephen Vincent Benét did a parody of it, set in the pioneering Northwest. And the “Sabine Women” became the “Sobbin’ Women.” As for the movie, they set up the abduction with Adam reading the legend to his brothers, who follow through, in typical thick-headed, lumberjack fashion, bringing their sweeties back even though they’re depicted as crying. Well, gee, that’s what Brother Adam said happened with the Old Romans, right? Them Sobbin’ Women cried, but “secretly, they was overjoyed.” (Thus, perhaps, the decision to show the women “sobbin’” even if they would rather be with the woodsmen than their stuffy town boyfriends.) I don’t know that there’s any way to rectify what 21st century minds justly see as women taken against their will, except to remind ourselves that this is a parody of a legend that’s over two thousand years old. Here are Johnny Mercer’s clever lyrics that set the boys into action. SIX BROTHERS Oh yes! Them a women was sobbin', sobbin', Sobbin' buckets of tears On account o' old dobbin', Dobbin' really rattled their ears. Oh they acted angry and annoyed GIDEON But secretly they was overjoyed ADAM You must recall that when corralin' your streets BROTHERS Oh, oh, oh, oh them poe little dears. Laura |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:34 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - showtunetrivia 08:01 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| "I don’t know that there’s any way to rectify what 21st century minds justly see as women taken against their will, except to remind ourselves that this is a parody of a legend that’s over two thousand years old." That's the thing. They're NOT taken against their will in the sense that it has been established that all of the women WANT to be with the brothers, rather than with the townsmen to whom they have been promised but whom they don't love. On the other hand, they very much ARE taken against their will in that, of course, they DID NOT want to be forcibly kidnapped and removed from their town, their families and their friends, to a remote cabin in the woods. At any rate, to your point, the whole thing is a lot easier to swallow if you try to perceive it as a musical comedy based on a parody of a fable, rather than something that attempt to portray events that would ever realistically happen in real life :-) |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 03:07 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 03:04 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - Michael_Portantiere 11:34 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| The film as a whole is really a hilarious comedy about male/female relations and every scene is loaded with sexual innuendo. A couple of months after the abduction, the 6 girls (when not in Millie's presence) talk about how each has been sleeping in her boyfriend's bed every night and really enjoying it. At the end when the fathers arrive, each girl proclaims the baby is hers -- but wait a minute, the abduction (at the most) occurred only 4 months or so earlier, implying all had been engaged in carnal activity and (at least one) must have conceived some time prior to the (supposed) kidnapping. So was it a real kidnapping or a convincingly staged performance to hoodwink their puritanical parents? |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:25 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - BroadwayTonyJ 03:04 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
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| Your point about the timeline is well taken, but unless I'm misunderstanding you, the kidnapping is very much portrayed as real, not a staged performance that the women were in on. | |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Last Edit: BroadwayTonyJ 06:04 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 05:50 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - Michael_Portantiere 04:25 pm EST 03/10/21 | |
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| I just watched the scene on my DVD. Yes and no, the entire scene is done comically and is in no way realistic. It's actually described as "creative kidnapping" by the scene selection subtitle. 4 of the girls are actually being romanced by their unexciting town boyfriends when 4 corresponding Pontipees dispatch the losers in a flash and carry off their respective brides. Another girl gets swooped up while baking a pie, and the last one gets carried off while looking for her cat. At least two of the 6 seem "overjoyed" for a second (especially the one who gets kissed), but it's all too rough and heavy handed. Donen should have taken a lesson from similar situations in other films and done it stylistically and with wit. Have the girl be frightened at first but then melt into the guy's arms after a good smooch. It worked with Tyrone Power and Alice Faye in In Old Chicago, Errol Flynn pulled it off with Olivia de Havilland, Clark Gable with various women, but (best of all) Larry Keith with Susan Lucci on an episode of All My Children. The girls then go to the wagon willingly. When the pursuit and gunfire begin, it's too late to turn back. The ride to the Pontipee place is harrowing. When they arrive with no parson and they're stuck for the winter, the girls naturally greet Millie in tears. My previous post's suggestions then work because the girls' sexual fantasies are being realized. I think the audience could interpret the abduction as a staged performance if the girls then wink at the screen after claiming the baby is theirs. Lubitsch could have pulled it off. Donen should have re-thought the whole scene to make it work better. I've seen the film dozens of times, initially probably in the 60's. The abduction scene didn't bother me then because it was done comically plus the times and our culture were a lot different. Today it comes off as too rough and too scary. |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 11:25 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - showtunetrivia 08:01 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| Thanks for the response, Laura. My initial qualms about the kidnapping scene in the movie stem from how entirely different it is in tone and execution from the entire rest of the movie. A fluffy fantasy musical suddenly lurches into reality for one scene and it is ugly. Imagine a movie of THE SOUND OF MUSIC where we see Nazis rounding up Jews and shooting dissenters in the street, while the von Trapps are solving a problem like Maria. It may be that Stanley Donen, the director, and the writing team (Albert Hackett, Frances Goodrich, Dorothy Kingsley) simply botched the scene in the writing and directing. To my mind, it would have been improved if the actresses playing the kidnapped women had simply been directed to play the scene in a different way that didn't highlight their abject terror. We've all seen movies and musicals and movie musicals where, if we think about it for a moment, our response would be "Huh...if this wasn't a movie/musical/movie musical, that situation would be very different." That entire sequence was difficult for me to watch and focus on anything other than the women's reactions. And I'm a little surprised that the jarring change of tone was let slide at MGM, although perhaps their attention was too taken up by BRIGADOON at the time. Had I been Dore Schary, I think I'd have asked for reshoots. Regardless of how one feels about women or the acknowledgement that 1850 was a different time, it's hard to ignore the tonal shift that almost makes that scene seem like it's out of a different movie altogether. |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:44 am EST 03/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - JereNYC 11:25 am EST 03/10/21 | |
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| "It may be that Stanley Donen, the director, and the writing team (Albert Hackett, Frances Goodrich, Dorothy Kingsley) simply botched the scene in the writing and directing. To my mind, it would have been improved if the actresses playing the kidnapped women had simply been directed to play the scene in a different way that didn't highlight their abject terror. " Understood, and I completely agree. In my opinion, a similar situation exists in the film of MY FAIR LADY (and, I believe, also in the film of PYGMALION, though I haven't see that in a while and I'm not sure). The scene in question in MFL is the one where Eliza has come to live with Professor Higgins in order to be schooled by him, and she is trundled off to the washroom to be bathed by the servants. It's set up that Eliza is not used to taking baths, to put it mildly, so she recoils from bathing -- and when that happens, the servants FORCIBLY try to restrain her and remove her clothes while Audrey Hepburn as Liza literally begins screaming and crying in terror and embarrassment. I always find that horribly sadistic little scene incredibly hard to watch, and I think it's one of the most glaring flaws in the film. For that matter, it was one of the biggest flaws of the overall excellent Lincoln Center Theater production that this scene, which was NOT in the script of the stage show, was added, although thankfully it was played in a way that wasn't so horribly off-putting. |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 08:48 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:48 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - showtunetrivia 08:01 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| so I could sit here and type, like Adolfo, for hours.... Aldolpho can type? :-) |
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| re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 11:32 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: SEVEN BRIDES FOR SEVEN BROTHERS - On Stage Vs. Film - Chromolume 08:48 pm EST 03/09/21 | |
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| He can do it....sloooooooowly..... Laura |
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