Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 09:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| I'd like to think that he has and that it made him chuckle. For all the attention the song's unapolgetic explicitness has received, it's also full of clever wordplay and, unlike most of the hip hop that charts these days, it's celebratory and has a sense of humor about itself. | |
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| God, we're bored. (nm) | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 11:56 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - DistantDrumming 09:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| nm means Belcalis Marlenis Almánzar | |
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| In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) | |
| Posted by: Seth Christenfeld (tabula-rasa@verizon.net) 09:40 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - DistantDrumming 09:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| Seth, who put himself through reading the whole thing | |
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| re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 10:34 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) - Seth Christenfeld 09:40 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| That is saying something. And, as the OP, I feel deeply honored. This must be what winning a Drama Desk Award feels like. | |
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| re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:43 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) - DistantDrumming 10:34 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| Perhaps it's the Drama Desktop award? | |
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| re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) | |
| Posted by: Ann 07:10 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) - Chromolume 01:43 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| I think it's like winning a Theateraspberry. | |
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| re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:48 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) - Ann 07:10 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| "Raspberries!" as Carol Channing would say. :) | |
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| re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 06:09 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) - PlayWiz 02:48 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| Didn't she also say "Corn?" :-) | |
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| re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 06:55 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) - Chromolume 06:09 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| You're funny, Chromolume! :) I think the alleged line was "When did I eat corn?" | |
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| re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:33 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: In 20-plus years of being on this board, this thread may be the stupidest thing I've ever witnessed. (NM) - PlayWiz 06:55 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| Yes, but the way I've often heard it, it was also prefaced by "Corn???!!!" ;-) | |
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| Regarding WAP -- Was there ever a Lucille Bogan musical? | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 04:00 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - DistantDrumming 09:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| Judging by some of these comments, I think some of you might have been around in Ms. Bogan's heyday. (I kid, I kid...) Here's her lovely ditty Till The Cows Come Home, which came out a few years before Cardi's song about her enviable moistness. Maybe we can get a Lucille Bogan jukebox musical one day! |
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| Link | Till The Cows Come Home (1935) |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Posted by: NewsGuy 09:36 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - DistantDrumming 09:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| Until you look right onto the phone app, you just never know what's on someone's TouchTunes list.... | |
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| Before you Google WAP - be warned that it is NSFW | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 12:53 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - DistantDrumming 09:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| I didn't know anything about WAP so I Googled it. Now that I know what WAP is I can further confirm that I don't know anything about WAP. | |
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| It appears the eternal male query.. | |
| Posted by: garyd 11:10 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - DistantDrumming 09:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| "What does a woman want"?, has finally been answered. Sondheim can, therefore, feel free to move on to other human quandaries. | |
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| WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: MRH 10:55 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - DistantDrumming 09:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| All I could think of when hearing this song was how far culture has descended. As someone has pointed out -- look at Can That Boy Foxtrot, or all of A Little Night Music. The previous poster is wrong in that Sondheim and genitalia do go together -- they do. The difference is they are done with taste and style. In a few decades, we've gone from "Shall We Dance" and even the pretty risque "Brush Up Your Shakespeare" to WAP. Over the next 70 years, it's hard to imagine how more explicit things could get, besides people just performing sexual acts in public. |
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| Oh dear, so much pearl-clutching! | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 07:52 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 07:51 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - MRH 10:55 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| There is plenty of room for both high art and low art—and the gray area in between. After all, even Shakespeare spelled out 'cunt' in Twelfth Night. Though we all know "a talented writer/artist wouldn't need to do it." ;) | |
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| re: Oh dear, so much pearl-clutching! | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:21 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: Oh dear, so much pearl-clutching! - MockingbirdGirl 07:51 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| And let's not forget that Porter's "Love For Sale" could ONLY get radio play as an instrumental at first - the lyrics were just too risque. (He pushed the envelope on many other songs too.) | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Sam890 12:32 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - MRH 10:55 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| I don't mind the 'vulgarity' or explicitness, I just find songs like WAP to be so obvious and uninteresting. IMHO (of course) there's just so little inventiveness or creativity. And so many bad false rhymes. It's not the content I have a problem with, it's the lack of craft | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: singleticket 10:38 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Sam890 12:32 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| And so many bad false rhymes. My favorite comment yet! |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: singleticket 11:56 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - singleticket 10:38 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I mean, Cardi B has false everything which is part of her debatable charm. That also extends to her braggadocious WAP. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: MRH 10:09 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - singleticket 11:56 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| This thread is so great | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: MRH 12:41 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Sam890 12:32 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I understand that -- and said as much below to another commenter. It's cheap -- and a talented writer/artist wouldn't need to do it. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:52 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - MRH 10:55 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| I mean, it's vulgar and more explicit than I feel comfortable with, but it seems overall sex positive, and it's not the sum total of our culture if some folks are putting their sex right out there for public consumption. It's no different than the strip clubs and the genlteman's clubs before them, just it's not hidden away. If we were to judge the 1930s by their sexual appetites, we could reach the same conclusion about them. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Jax 01:38 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 11:52 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| You've really reached the desperation point when you begin praising someone for being "sex positive." We're all sex positive. It's how we express it. Rita Hayworth in "Gilda," Michelle Pfeiffer in "The Fabulous Baker Boys." Madonna in the "Vogue" video. These are sensual, shimmering performances. Cardi B has decided to undress on stage and do potty mouth talk because it's made her a star. She's down in the gutter with the likes of Marilyn Manson and Kid Rock, a pure embarrassment. And this ain't pearl clutching, just good taste. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:02 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Jax 01:38 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I think you have badly misread our puritanical culture if you think that everyone is sex positive - and I'll remind you that many of your reference points for the past were also accused of being too sexy or pushing the limits of good taste at the time. It's fine not to like what Cardi B is selling, but you're judging her level of sexuality by your standards of what is or isn't appropriate and calling that taste rather than comfort level. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Last Edit: MRH 12:45 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: MRH 12:43 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 11:52 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| If you want to be entertained my someone explicitly singing about their wet ass vagina, all the power to you. I'd rather listen to art that looks at deeper and truer emotion, and handles sex with sophistication -- the sexuality isn't the issue. It's the way it's presented. I agree it's on the level of a strip club. There's a reason what goes on at a strip club isn't art. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:05 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - MRH 12:43 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| That's fine - why does everything have to be art? This thread is about a loss of culture, but nothing about this song imperils our culture, nor must this song be judged by that standard. This song is exactly what it is, and meanwhile the art culture continues on its own path (which has its own degradations, but I would say those are more about money and lack of access to certain classes of artists) paying this song little mind. You just don't like it. I don't think I like it. That's not the same thing as our culture dying. |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 03:13 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 02:05 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| What seems objectionable to me is the way young girls mimic these songs and performances and intuit that shaking their asses is more valuable than what might be in their hearts and minds. Will my 8 year old goddaughter start singing about her wet pussy around the house? | |
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| “Won't someone please think of the children???” | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 08:40 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 08:33 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Billhaven 03:13 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| - MBG, who appreciates “culture” despite having listened to music with a Tipper Gore parental advisory label. ;) | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 04:54 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Billhaven 03:13 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Yes, far better for her to be "glad [she] can be oversexed again". Or okay with a man hitting her because it feels like a kiss when you love someone. Or as long as a man gives her money, then "sex is here to stay". Or that "everyone goes down well with beer". Or that literally sacrificing your voice to be "part of [a man's] world". Or any of the other unfiltered lessons learned from musical theater. Some things are appropriate and empowering for some people and offensive, inappropriate, or vulgar for others. None of these may be good role models for your goddaughter. None of the are the end of civilization. Many of them shock and delight. And some have helped people feel a sense of joy and freedom that was entirely good for them. To each, their own. For me, my anaconda don't want none unless...the rhyme is perfect and the scan sublime. |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 05:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Quicheo 04:54 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Never said it was the end of civilization, but yeah, I'd rather have her learn the words to Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered that Wet Ass Pussy. Call me crazy. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: MRH 10:13 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Billhaven 05:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Couldn't be said better. Some people just want to be contrary and appear 'hip' and with the times. You don't need to like and push WAP and kids and girls singing about their pussy to be hip in my opinion. (As a straight man who is all for sexuality!) | |
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| Um, people aren't trying to be hip, but some folks are really obsessed with the lyrics to this song | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 11:18 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:05 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - MRH 10:13 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| How did this turn into people wanting to appear hip and with it? This thread only exists because a handful of (I'm gonna guess older men) were scandalized by the song and convinced that civilization is ending. That's been proven to be nonsense by a whole bunch of people who haven't attempted to prove how hip they are, but have simply pointed out the overreaction. Meanwhile, a few of y'all are really obsessed with this song and the idea of young kids singing about wet ass pussy (which I didn't even know was the name of the song until you salacious Sallies told me), even though it sounds like it hasn't happened yet. So you're hearing this song, obsessing over the lyrics, and then imagining children singing it? That's odd, but again, as long as no one is harmed, to each their own. |
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| re: Um, people aren't trying to be hip, but some folks are really obsessed with the lyrics to this song | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:35 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: Um, people aren't trying to be hip, but some folks are really obsessed with the lyrics to this song - Singapore/Fling 11:05 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| "A few of y'all are really obsessed with this song and the idea of young kids singing about wet ass pussy (which I didn't even know was the name of the song until you salacious Sallies told me), even though it sounds like it hasn't happened yet." Umm, WHAT????? "So you're hearing this song, obsessing over the lyrics, and then imagining children singing it? That's odd, but again, as long as no one is harmed, to each their own." I'm having difficult comprehending this sentence as well, but can you please explain what's "odd" about some people "imagining" children singing this song? |
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| You don't have to wait to see some kids enjoying the song with their parents | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 10:09 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Um, people aren't trying to be hip, but some folks are really obsessed with the lyrics to this song - Michael_Portantiere 03:35 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| It's not exactly Maria and the Von Trapp kids learning the words to Do Re Mi, but I still find it rather heartwarming. (And, yes, some of these "kids" are over 18.) | |
| Link | WAP - family entertainment |
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| re: You don't have to wait to see some kids enjoying the song with their parents | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:17 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: You don't have to wait to see some kids enjoying the song with their parents - DistantDrumming 10:09 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| This video is priceless! That said, I wonder how much of this is real - but still...;-) |
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| re: You don't have to wait to see some kids enjoying the song with their parents | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 10:19 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You don't have to wait to see some kids enjoying the song with their parents - Chromolume 10:17 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| I mean, undoubtedly, people stage all kinds of things for TikTok, but there are dozens of these compilations of people's parents and grandparents reacting to WAP and most of them look pretty genuine to me. My favorites are actually the parents who are shocked, but who don't overreact, but instead laugh with their kids. More below... |
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| Link | ... a FEMALE, Dear |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 06:37 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Billhaven 05:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| My point was that a person has some control over the listening habits of 8 year-olds. One needed chose among inappropriate exposures. But I am quite confident you know that. And I'm not really arguing other than to say that some people really like WAP and find it as delightful as we may find "Bewitched..." And none of those people need be your goddaughter. |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: MRH 10:14 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Quicheo 06:37 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Have you seen young children interacting on the Internet -- kids now have access often, and they hear things from their friends, etc. Maybe not 8, but definitely 10,11,12 -- do you want your daugther that age singing about her wet ass pussy -- instead of "Baby it's cold outside." If so, fine. But that's the situation and choice. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:07 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - MRH 10:14 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Would I rather a child sing about their wet ass pussy or sing a song that can easily be interpreted as a man coercing a woman to sleep with him? I mean, both are kind of gross to me, but at least one of them lets the women be in charge. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:37 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 11:07 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| "Would I rather a child sing about their wet ass pussy or sing a song that can easily be interpreted as a man coercing a woman to sleep with him? I mean, both are kind of gross to me, but at least one of them lets the women be in charge." Well, that interpretation is very......interesting. |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 05:20 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:14 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Michael_Portantiere 03:37 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| So for the past 5 years our entire culture (including this board) has discusses near every Christmas season how "Baby It's Cold Outside" sounds a little rapey, and only sounds a little less rapey when it's gender reversed. (I don't recall it coming up as a topic this past year, so perhaps we've all put that conversation to bed.) Not sure how you missed it. The whole song is one person saying all the reasons they need to leave the house and the other person ignoring all of their concerns while plying them with more drinks. Midway through, there's this observation: Ah, you're very pushy you know? I like to think of it as opportunistic And the ending is: Okay fine, just another drink then That took a lot of convincing! Which, just as written words, is kind of gross. The song can be approached in a way where they're both in on the game, but it can also be approached where one of them is breaking down the other. Either way, we've been talking about this song in these terms for years, so there's nothing new, interesting, nor unique to me in that observation. In any event, there's a rich irony in someone who is scandalized by the self-created thought of young girls singing about their pussies insisting that they sing instead about not being able to leave someone's house while being plied with cigarettes and booze. Seems odd to me. |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:45 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 05:14 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| "The song can be approached in a way where they're both in on the game, but it can also be approached where one of them is breaking down the other." I have always seen it played the first way -- as intended by the songwriter -- and never once seen it played the second way. "In any event, there's a rich irony in someone who is scandalized by the self-created thought of young girls singing about their pussies insisting that they sing instead about not being able to leave someone's house while being plied with cigarettes and booze. Seems odd to me." Of course, no one is insisting that young girls sing "Baby, It's Cold Outside" INSTEAD of "WAP," so I don't know where you got that from. At any rate, I continue to find your perspective on this exceedingly odd -- so I guess we're even :-) Fun fact: If you actually pay attention to the actual lyrics of "Baby....," the persuader is not actually "plying" the other person with booze or cigarettes. Rather, the person who keeps saying maybe s/he should leave first brings up booze by saying "Well, maybe just a half a drink more" and later brings up cigarettes by saying "Maybe just a cigarette more." And there is absolutely no indication whatsoever in the song that the person who keeps saying may s/he should leave is UNABLE to leave. I always thing it's best, in discussions like this, to confine ourselves to what's actually written, as opposed to what we have created in our minds. (And yes, I'm well aware of the highly controversial "What's in this drink?" line, but I don't have the energy to get into discussion of that right now.) |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:00 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:58 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 05:14 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| The song can be approached in a way where they're both in on the game Yes, it can. And I feel that if Loesser wanted to write a song about dark seduction and rape, he would have written (and did write) "Don't Cry" instead. The playful music of "Baby It's Cold Outside" does, I think, signal that she's playing the game right along with him. The darkly seductive (and downright menacing) music in "Don't Cry" tells a different story. Too much has been made over this whole thing. There are better musical topics for future Christmases: Why does Burl Ives think we're all deaf? Exactly who would build a "Parson Brown" snowman, and what's with all this conspiring in front of the fireplace? (Enough with the conspiracy theories...) Can that drummer twerp play ANYTHING except pa-ruppa-pum-pum already? Besot??? |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 08:28 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 05:14 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| Snopes has a good summary of the broader conversation that Sing'/Fling is referencing. | |
| Link | https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/12/18/baby-its-cold-outside/ |
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| To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:14 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - MRH 10:55 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| ...Sondheim and Bernstein (and Gershwin, for that matter) were a sign of cultural degradation. à chaque époque la sienne. P.S. Just so you know, being compared to my great-grandmother is a great honor. |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: MRH 11:34 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: To my great-grandmother... - ryhog 11:14 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| Well, I know it's always framed that way. But I disagree -- I don't think Sondheim and Gershwin were any cultural degradation from artists like Gilbert and Sullivan, Noel Coward, etc. I'd say they were right in line. A clever artist doesn't need to the explicit vulgarity of WAP; it's not just a degradation of culture, it's a degradation of what passes for talent in today's culture. |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:19 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - MRH 11:34 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| Of course you don't see that degradation; you were on the inside of it. And please understand: I am not trying to pull you out of it. A little awareness of what you are saying in that second paragraph, however, would be welcome. I don't find "what passes for talent in today's culture" a very clever finale. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: MRH 12:40 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - ryhog 12:19 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I just told you -- I looked back 50-60 years from Sondheim, and see no degradation. That's not being inside it. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:03 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - MRH 12:40 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| LOL. Yes it is. I don't really want to belabor the point, but that's not analogous. It's the looking forward perspective that is. It's does my g-gm think Sondheim degraded the culture as she knew it? (And FWIW she would not have held up G&S et al as the acme, but I digress.) | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:42 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:37 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - ryhog 01:03 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Oh, I dunno about G&S. It can't possibly be that audiences of the time wouldn't have wondered how Major General Stanley got all those many daughters - or how one of them blissfully falls in love with a little boy of five. Or who might have been a bit surprised at lyrics like "What a tale of cock" or perhaps when a philanderer sings "Be firm, be firm my pecker." (Well, of course, what else would rhyme with "exchequer" lol.) Or even at all those forbidden kisses that Yum-Yum and Nanki-Poo aren't (??) giving each other. And on and on. Anyone who thinks G&S is pure G-rated entertainment should look again...:-) | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 10:54 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - Chromolume 09:37 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Audiences didn't have to wonder how Major General Stanley got all those many daughters...the lyric reveals that. "We are Wards In Chancery, and Father is a Major General." So these women are not the Major General's biological daughters, they are his wards. They were put in his care by the Court of Chancery. They refer to him as "Father" and seem to genuinely care for him, but it's also possible that they have been in his care for many years at the point we meet them. Without anything in the text to support the idea, I've assumed that these women were placed in his care as children because he was a wealthy person with the means to support them and the willingness to do so. All of these people seem to consider themselves to be a family, despite none of them likely being biologically related to any of the others. |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:25 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - JereNYC 10:54 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| "We are Wards In Chancery, and Father is a Major General." Thank you for the reminder. having done Pirates a number of times, I'm surprised I forgot that, especially as Gilbert daringly rhymes "chancery" with "caravanserai." ;-) I still stand by the idea that Gilbert could be quite suggestive when he wanted to be. Perhaps a better example would be the way the (highly susceptible) Lord Chancellor in Iolanthe overtly lusts after his very own wards in chancery. Oops... |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: MRH 10:16 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - Chromolume 09:37 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Thanks for the back-up -- obviously the previous poster (who kept saying he knew the history of our culture and WAP was not worse) doesn't actually know our culture. And as you say G&S is hardly G-rated. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:49 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - MRH 10:16 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| If you are referring to me, then you have misapprehended almost everything I said. And I suspect a good part of what Chromey was trying to convey. What you think G&S is or isn't is irrelevant to this discussion. The point is that, in addition to my now well-known in these parts great-grandmother, there were plenty of people (if you are unfamiliar the criticism is easy enough to find) who looked down their nose at the "trash" they were putting out, much as you do with Cardi B. FWIW I never said what I thought of WAP (that's irrelevant to this discussion as well), but your use of the word "worse" betrays the fault in everything you have written here. Art is not better or worse; it is different. You personally can like or dislike anything (also irrelevant), but you cannot impose that "taste" on everyone, least of all a generation as to which you are a spectator. The wonderful thing about art is that it evolves, so every generation falls in love with something that doesn't sit very comfortably with its predecessors. (Incidentally, that's precisely what we want art to do.) Some things endure; most things don't. Closed-mindedness never goes out of style. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 11:04 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - ryhog 10:49 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| And every generation loves a lot of crap. Most of the pop of my day is crap, Some things endure. Just like dozens of second rate shows were extremely popular. Abie's Irish Rose was one of most successful plays ever produced. How Much is That Doggie in the Window was one of biggest recordings of the 50s. I'm more judgemental than you. I judge Sinatra's (by way of Richards and Leigh) Young at Heart better. Not just different....better. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:00 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - Billhaven 11:04 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Oh I have nothing against being judgmental (I do have something against the extra "e" even though it is not incorrect :-) ) so long as we understand that it is 100% subjective (which you obviously do). It's when someone tries to pretend it is objective that I get my feathers ruffled. When someone uses the word "hip" in the context of what is, at bottom, a variation on the emperor's new clothes canard, that also gets my dander up. An antihistamine usually clears that up though. | |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 10:31 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 10:29 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - DistantDrumming 09:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| I'm not sure if genitalia and Sondheim really go together. Hopefully someone will prove me wrong here. (And I mean his oeuvre, not his personal life.) |
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| Exclusive You, Elusive You... | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 03:51 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - singleticket 10:29 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| ...Will Any Person Ever Get the Juice of You? | |
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| re: Exclusive You, Elusive You... | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 11:04 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: Exclusive You, Elusive You... - KingSpeed 03:51 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| I've always been curious about that lyric. I think we can assume that many people have gotten Bobby's "juice," over the probably 20 or so years that he's likely been sexually active. In fact, we even see one character get the juice of him right on stage (usually, depending on the production). And that character is one of the characters singing this lyric. Any Person, April? You mean, besides yourself? Besides, likely, the other two women singing with you at this moment, as well? Ladies, you've all gotten the juice of Bobby, so what are you talking about here? |
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| re: Exclusive You, Elusive You... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:40 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Exclusive You, Elusive You... - JereNYC 11:04 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| As suggestive as you propose that lyric to be, I don't think that's what it means in the context of the song. (Though perhaps not as crazy as the guy who once tried to convince me that "I Know Things Now" was specifically about anal sex, but I digress. Sorry for bringing that up.) I think the intention of the song is much closer to "All The Single Ladies" than "Satisfaction" lol. Also, of course, the loose time structure of the show means that we really don't know when April and Bobby spent the night together in relation to the song. And of course if the song actually is indicative of a concrete event when the 3 of them were hounding him together (which seems unlikely). |
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| re: Exclusive You, Elusive You... | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 10:32 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Exclusive You, Elusive You... - Chromolume 02:40 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| I agree with your interpretation of that "juice" lyric. Also, the anal sex interpretation of I Know Things Now is making me genuinely L-O-L. Not sure I'll ever hear the song in quite the same way. Did Sondheim write that one in his basement? | |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 10:44 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 10:43 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - singleticket 10:29 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| I don't think "Can That Boy Foxtrot" was just about dancing, but it's certainly more tastefully droll. Although I rather think Mrs. Schweitzer would need Albert Schweitzer to answer the question posed in the song. | |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:30 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - PlayWiz 10:43 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| I don't think "Can That Boy Foxtrot" was just about dancing It's not about dancing AT ALL. (In fact, "he can't dance" is one of the punchlines.) |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Last Edit: lordofspeech 04:31 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: lordofspeech 04:31 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - PlayWiz 10:43 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| The semi-tasteless, one-joke note of « Boy, Can that Boy Foxtrot » was probably why it was cut. The rest of Sondheim’s work is not so close to single entendre. But I think there’s healthy sexuality in his work sometimes. Songs like « That’ll Show Him » from Funny Thing and The Miller’s Son from Night Music and even Follies’ « Could I Leave You », and Company’s « Barcelona, » among others, treat of different aspects of sexuality in relationship, but they are so wonderfully modulated by character and circumstance that they reveal human nature and story. Not prurient. |
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| Where does Sondheim's brilliant "I Never Do Anything Twice" fit into the current conversation? | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 12:25 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - lordofspeech 04:31 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| One of my favorite Sondheim lyrics. | |
| Link | I Never Do Anything Twice |
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| Sondheim's brilliant "I Never Do Anything Twice" Bestiality, BDSM, blasphemy avec bodily harm | |
| Posted by: waterfall 12:42 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: Where does Sondheim's brilliant "I Never Do Anything Twice" fit into the current conversation? - pecansforall 12:25 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| "When I was young and simple I don't recall the date I met a handsome captain of the guard He visited my chambers one evening rather late In tandem with a husky Saint Bernard At first I was astonished And tears came to my eyes But, later when I asked him to resume He said, to my surprise My dear, it isn't wise Where love is concerned one must freshen the bloom Once, yes, once for a lark Twice, though, loses the spark One must never deny it But after you try it you vary the diet Said my handsome young guard Yes, I know, but it's hard But no matter how nice I never do anything twice La la da da de-ah da dum I think about the baron Who came at my command And proffered me a riding crop and chains The evening that we shared Was meticulously planned He took the most extraordinary pains He trembled with excitement His cheeks were quite aglow And afterword he cried to me, encore! He pleaded with me so to have another go I murmured carressingly, whatever for? Once, yes, once for a lark Twice, though, loses the spark Once, yes, once is delicious But twice would be vicious Or just repetitious Someone's bound to be scarred Yes, I know that it's hard But, no matter the price I never do anything twice La la la la la la la la la la And then there was the abbot Who worshipped at my feet Who dressed me in a wimple and in veils He made a proposition which I found rather sweet And handed me a hammer and some nails In time we lay contented And he began again By fingering the beads around our waists I whispered to him then We'll have to say amen For I had developed more catholic tastes Once, yes, once for a lark Twice, though, loses the spark As I said to the abbot I'll get in the habit, but not in the habit You've my highest regard And I know that it's hard Still, no matter the price I'd never do anything twice Once, yes, once can be nice Love requires some spice If you've something in view Or something to do, totally new I'll be there in a trice But I never do anything twice Except . . . No I never do anything twice" |
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| Link | Patti LuPone's take |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 11:18 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - lordofspeech 04:31 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I concur with those posters who are on the side of "wit" over explicit vulgarity. However, it is true that culture has been downgraded by each new generation. It's at such a low, now, that I wonder where it can go to from here. I hope Cardi's grandchildren find solace in 'wap' as she sings them to sleep some night in the future. Cole Porter was about the naughtiest one could get and still be brilliantly witty............."kick him right in the Coriolanus" -- |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:37 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - Pokernight 11:18 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| However, it is true that culture has been downgraded by each new generation. No, I think what is true is that every generation believes that culture is being downgraded by each new generation. And, it's "kick HER right in the Coriolanus" - which doesn't go over as well nowadays. |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 12:50 am EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - Chromolume 09:37 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| I wonder if the day will dawn when you have something positive to say about the content of other members' posts. I feel sure that you gaze into a lake each morning upon awakening. | |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 01:42 am EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - Pokernight 12:50 am EDT 03/20/21 | |
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| WHAT???? | |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Posted by: MRH 10:28 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - Pokernight 11:18 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| This is my point exactly. I'm 30 -- not a curmudgeonly old man. How LOW can culture go after this -- your thing about Cardi B singing WAP to her granddaughters sums it up perfectly | |
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| re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? | |
| Posted by: singleticket 12:03 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - Pokernight 11:18 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I love Cole Porter but I also love Julia Lee, Bessie Smith and the "Dirty Blues" tradition. My guess is Cole Porter adored it too but he wrote his songs for a different world. | |
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| Last Edit: MRH 10:55 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| Posted by: MRH 10:54 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Do you think Sondheim has heard W.A.P.? - PlayWiz 10:43 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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