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| To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:14 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - MRH 10:55 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| ...Sondheim and Bernstein (and Gershwin, for that matter) were a sign of cultural degradation. à chaque époque la sienne. P.S. Just so you know, being compared to my great-grandmother is a great honor. |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: MRH 11:34 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
| In reply to: To my great-grandmother... - ryhog 11:14 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| Well, I know it's always framed that way. But I disagree -- I don't think Sondheim and Gershwin were any cultural degradation from artists like Gilbert and Sullivan, Noel Coward, etc. I'd say they were right in line. A clever artist doesn't need to the explicit vulgarity of WAP; it's not just a degradation of culture, it's a degradation of what passes for talent in today's culture. |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:19 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - MRH 11:34 pm EDT 03/16/21 | |
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| Of course you don't see that degradation; you were on the inside of it. And please understand: I am not trying to pull you out of it. A little awareness of what you are saying in that second paragraph, however, would be welcome. I don't find "what passes for talent in today's culture" a very clever finale. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: MRH 12:40 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - ryhog 12:19 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I just told you -- I looked back 50-60 years from Sondheim, and see no degradation. That's not being inside it. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:03 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - MRH 12:40 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| LOL. Yes it is. I don't really want to belabor the point, but that's not analogous. It's the looking forward perspective that is. It's does my g-gm think Sondheim degraded the culture as she knew it? (And FWIW she would not have held up G&S et al as the acme, but I digress.) | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 09:42 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:37 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - ryhog 01:03 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Oh, I dunno about G&S. It can't possibly be that audiences of the time wouldn't have wondered how Major General Stanley got all those many daughters - or how one of them blissfully falls in love with a little boy of five. Or who might have been a bit surprised at lyrics like "What a tale of cock" or perhaps when a philanderer sings "Be firm, be firm my pecker." (Well, of course, what else would rhyme with "exchequer" lol.) Or even at all those forbidden kisses that Yum-Yum and Nanki-Poo aren't (??) giving each other. And on and on. Anyone who thinks G&S is pure G-rated entertainment should look again...:-) | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 10:54 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - Chromolume 09:37 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Audiences didn't have to wonder how Major General Stanley got all those many daughters...the lyric reveals that. "We are Wards In Chancery, and Father is a Major General." So these women are not the Major General's biological daughters, they are his wards. They were put in his care by the Court of Chancery. They refer to him as "Father" and seem to genuinely care for him, but it's also possible that they have been in his care for many years at the point we meet them. Without anything in the text to support the idea, I've assumed that these women were placed in his care as children because he was a wealthy person with the means to support them and the willingness to do so. All of these people seem to consider themselves to be a family, despite none of them likely being biologically related to any of the others. |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:25 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - JereNYC 10:54 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| "We are Wards In Chancery, and Father is a Major General." Thank you for the reminder. having done Pirates a number of times, I'm surprised I forgot that, especially as Gilbert daringly rhymes "chancery" with "caravanserai." ;-) I still stand by the idea that Gilbert could be quite suggestive when he wanted to be. Perhaps a better example would be the way the (highly susceptible) Lord Chancellor in Iolanthe overtly lusts after his very own wards in chancery. Oops... |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: MRH 10:16 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - Chromolume 09:37 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Thanks for the back-up -- obviously the previous poster (who kept saying he knew the history of our culture and WAP was not worse) doesn't actually know our culture. And as you say G&S is hardly G-rated. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:49 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - MRH 10:16 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| If you are referring to me, then you have misapprehended almost everything I said. And I suspect a good part of what Chromey was trying to convey. What you think G&S is or isn't is irrelevant to this discussion. The point is that, in addition to my now well-known in these parts great-grandmother, there were plenty of people (if you are unfamiliar the criticism is easy enough to find) who looked down their nose at the "trash" they were putting out, much as you do with Cardi B. FWIW I never said what I thought of WAP (that's irrelevant to this discussion as well), but your use of the word "worse" betrays the fault in everything you have written here. Art is not better or worse; it is different. You personally can like or dislike anything (also irrelevant), but you cannot impose that "taste" on everyone, least of all a generation as to which you are a spectator. The wonderful thing about art is that it evolves, so every generation falls in love with something that doesn't sit very comfortably with its predecessors. (Incidentally, that's precisely what we want art to do.) Some things endure; most things don't. Closed-mindedness never goes out of style. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 11:04 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - ryhog 10:49 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| And every generation loves a lot of crap. Most of the pop of my day is crap, Some things endure. Just like dozens of second rate shows were extremely popular. Abie's Irish Rose was one of most successful plays ever produced. How Much is That Doggie in the Window was one of biggest recordings of the 50s. I'm more judgemental than you. I judge Sinatra's (by way of Richards and Leigh) Young at Heart better. Not just different....better. | |
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| re: To my great-grandmother... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:00 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: To my great-grandmother... - Billhaven 11:04 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Oh I have nothing against being judgmental (I do have something against the extra "e" even though it is not incorrect :-) ) so long as we understand that it is 100% subjective (which you obviously do). It's when someone tries to pretend it is objective that I get my feathers ruffled. When someone uses the word "hip" in the context of what is, at bottom, a variation on the emperor's new clothes canard, that also gets my dander up. An antihistamine usually clears that up though. | |
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