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| James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:33 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| What a brutally mixed legacy. No question he crafted the modern reputation of the company. No question he took advantage of that in repulsive ways. And boy are they going to need a new Jimmy to pull them out of their current chasm. | |
| Link | NYTimes |
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| Perhaps the family/estate can donate that $3.5 million payout back to the Met to compensate the Orchestra and Chorus who haven't been paid in a year | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 12:45 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: James Levine passed away over a week ago - ryhog 10:33 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| That would be one way to help out the "staff and unions" who are otherwise being neglected by Management. | |
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| You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:03 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: Perhaps the family/estate can donate that $3.5 million payout back to the Met to compensate the Orchestra and Chorus who haven't been paid in a year - Singapore/Fling 12:45 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| seems he got married before he died, to the woman he has lived with for years. news to me, but a crafty tax dodge. | |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:08 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - ryhog 01:03 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| "News to me, but a crafty tax dodge." I suppose that may be the only explanation that makes sense. In my opinion, all joking aside, Levine should have willed AT LEAST the amount of money he won in his settlement with the Met back to that severely struggling company. Or rather, more specifically, if he wanted to make sure that people like Peter Gelb and the other powers that be at the company didn't benefit from the bequest in any way, he could have donated it specifically to a fund for the musicians, many/most of whom he worked with for many years. |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:35 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - Michael_Portantiere 11:08 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| He should have, but I suspect he felt abandoned by them since I do not recall anything but crickets when he was suspended and then fired. (I don't know.) I also suspect that leaving the money to her was in reaction to her (a) not abandoning him and (b) providing him with cover for years. | |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:37 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - ryhog 11:35 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| "....providing him with cover for years." Such as it was. Kind of like that unseen character in AVENUE Q, the girlfriend who lives in Canada. |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:02 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - Michael_Portantiere 11:37 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| haha yes. It did provide cover. I think we often underestimate the extent to which the general public is oblivious about "things." |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:05 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - ryhog 12:02 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| ****It did provide cover. I think we often underestimate the extent to which the general public is oblivious about "things."**** I know what you mean, but in this case, any "cover" that existed seemed to me practically non-existent. Levine didn't do very many interviews, and as far as I can remember, he hardly ever mentioned having a girlfriend, not do I remember seeing many (or any) photographs of them together. Of course, I may have just missed all of that..... |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:57 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - Michael_Portantiere 01:05 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| From what I was told by someone in the opera business, after some of these payments made by the Met for his illicit acts and arrests, Levine's life mostly was confined in a way to being shuttled between his apartment and the opera house, or in other cities in the U.S at least, between where he was living and where he was conducting. You didn't read much about him in the media at social events (other than the Met's special events), his views on much other than music, his personal life (other than his preparing for his upcoming engagements), etc. He was very focused on preparing his operas, rehearsing and conducting opera. His other interest was gossiped about for years, sometimes quite openly by audience members at the opera house, but it took decades before management did anything about it publicly to stop the abuse. | |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:09 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - PlayWiz 02:57 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| He did mentioned her, and they did appear together at times (I say this from what I read about the marriage, not from personal recollection) but I also think, as I said above, that we underestimate the assumption of "regularity" that most people make about people. (There are of course tons of film stars [and politicians, etc] who were just assumed to be straight by the general population, even though "we" knew better.) Regarding those latter years, I think his health was a big factor in his seeming "reclusiveness." I would like to think that he was suffering in the shame that he had brought upon himself but I suspect that's wishful thinking. | |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 06:18 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - ryhog 06:09 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| I am a little confused. I read somewhere they Levine and the woman in question were only VERY recently married, and before that she was just presented as a girlfriend or maybe a common-law partner. Is that incorrect? | |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:08 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - Michael_Portantiere 06:18 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| What I recall reading was that she was in fact his roommate. I do not recall reading that he presented her as anything except perhaps by implication. If he did, I am not challenging that because everything I know on this subject is from one article that I read quickly. All I can say beyond that is that I would be embarrassed to be her, but I realize she had a nice payday for what she did. | |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: larry13 11:30 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - Michael_Portantiere 11:08 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| I don't think Levine had any good feelings towards the Met since his firing. As for the orchestra, did any musician, let alone as a group, ever speak up for him?(NOT that I believe they should have nor that he shouldn't have been fired.) |
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| re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:47 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You will have to take it up with his WIFE! - larry13 11:30 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| I guess my position is that even if none of the Met musicians "spoke up" for Levine in terms of defending him against moral improprieties and/or crimes of which he was accused (and which had been discussed behind the scenes for DECADES), Levine might have willed a large amount to the Met orchestra musicians directly as a way of commemorating and preserving the positive legacy he left in building that orchestra to a world-class ensemble. | |
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| re: Perhaps the family/estate can donate that $3.5 million payout back to the Met to compensate the Orchestra and Chorus who haven't been paid in a year | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 02:08 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: Perhaps the family/estate can donate that $3.5 million payout back to the Met to compensate the Orchestra and Chorus who haven't been paid in a year - Singapore/Fling 12:45 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| That would be nice ... though Mr Levine had no connection to the shut down of the opera house ... | |
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| re: Perhaps the family/estate can donate that $3.5 million payout back to the Met to compensate the Orchestra and Chorus who haven't been paid in a year | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 09:24 am EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Perhaps the family/estate can donate that $3.5 million payout back to the Met to compensate the Orchestra and Chorus who haven't been paid in a year - NewtonUK 02:08 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| And I can't imagine is feeling particularly kindly disposed toward The Met these days. | |
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| re: Perhaps the family/estate can donate that $3.5 million payout back to the Met to compensate the Orchestra and Chorus who haven't been paid in a year | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:08 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Perhaps the family/estate can donate that $3.5 million payout back to the Met to compensate the Orchestra and Chorus who haven't been paid in a year - NewtonUK 02:08 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| No, but when we talk about the lack of funds at the Met and how it has been suffering budget woes since before the Pandemic, we can't ignore the fact that Levine's payout for being fired over the many allegations of sexual harassment and abuse represents not just a significant pot of money in general, but underlines the way that non-profit arts organizations pay their senior management outrageous sums of money while asking "staff and unions" to accept reduced wages and austerity budgets that are meant to support the long-term health of the organization (because, you know, we're all in this together). And of course, it's not just the Met. Just recently, we learned that BAM gave their new President a million dollar bonus to buy park side real estate, provided she remain in the role for five years. This was quite the vote of confidence on behalf of the Board - but Boards always find a way to pay their own - considering that she'd never run an organization as large as BAM, and also quite generous, considering that she only had to give a five years of work - and indeed, once those five years were up. she promptly moved to a new organization and kept the house. Meanwhile, BAM was asking its various artistic and programming departments to continue providing the high quality work that audiences expect of them on less and less money, and morale throughout the organization was at an all-time low (all of this reported in the Times a few weeks ago). At least the Met has the good sense to own the million-dollar apartment that Peter Gelb lives in as part of his compensation package (though I wouldn't be surprised if he manages to hold onto it if he leaves the organization). Things are no different at the city's other major arts institutions (MoMA's executive compensation compared to what their museum staff gets paid is truly shameful), but the Levine payment is perhaps the most egregious because of how directly it points to the corruption at the heart of our arts culture and the ways that it continually rewards the privileged few at the hands of the many, who nonetheless are constantly encouraged to find solidarity in serving their art despite not being well paid for it. |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 12:48 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: James Levine passed away over a week ago - ryhog 10:33 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| No real outpouring of grief so far for someone who loomed so large in his field and in NY life for years and years. Rumors of his malfeasance were talked about for years. He certainly got the orchestra in tip-top shape. He also kept out some other really great conductors over the years; friends at the Met told me he was rather on pins and needles backstage and during rehearsals when the great Carlos Kleiber conducted years ago. Levine, while being an excellent conductor, pretty much hogged a big percentage of the conducting duties, premieres, new productions, etc. and by having mostly lesser, non-name conductors on the staff, looked better by comparison. A few of the Met ushers were quite opinionated about him: "Oh, when he conducts, it's going to be loud and slow". Perhaps a bit simplistic in its criticism, but kind of true, especially in Wagner. The orchestra did sound great though. It's really hard to temper my appreciation for his mastery of so many different operas and his accomplishments with what was going on, not only with the sexual accusations, but also with his political stuff in running the place. For instance, he apparently used to make promises of the same role to different people, and let someone else take the blame for one person finally getting it. He let his friend Kathleen Battle basically terrorize the place, until General Manager Joe Volpe was then in charge and had enough of her finally to fire her when she insulted in front of the company his good friend Rosalind Elias. It's going to be interesting now to hear more stories coming out shortly about stuff behind the scenes, especially from retired singers. There was plenty of stuff being said while he was still conducting there. Even Liz Smith, the gossip columnist years ago, without naming him, but very clear about who she was referring to, in print, mentioned that the board of Lincoln Center was getting sick and tired of bailing out with a lot of money one of their top people for being arrested and other offenses. This was in the '80s! Why the powers that be didn't do something then to rectify the situation is rather shameful. I hope the Met comes back stronger than ever, but it's going to be a really big challenge. |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:02 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - PlayWiz 12:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Thanks for your thoughts on this, PlayWiz. I believe I had heard or read somewhere before that Battle having publicly insulted Elias was the last straw. Without getting too gossipy, can you provide any details on that? Of course, Elias was a highly respected Met artist of very long standing, so I'm not at all surprised that any such insult to her would have resulted in dismissal. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 05:21 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 05:05 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 03:02 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I used to know her manager, introduced by a friend, a very nice man. I once asked about her, and he rather diplomatically told me that she was "challenging". Talking about some repertoire she was featuring and doing around then, he told me the Met didn't want to pay her full star salary for Despina by then (she had done it before she became a big star) in "Cosi Fan Tutte" because her part was considered the terza donna (3rd lady) in that opera, almost secondary character. I think her light lyric rep was a bit limiting in what the Met considered prima donna roles, even though she was well-known. Zerbinetta in "Ariadne auf Naxos" Rosina in "Barber of Seville", Susanna in "Marriage of Figaro" and Adina in "Elixir of Love" with Pavarotti were among her leading roles that the Met considered her worth their salary top. "Daughter" would have been too, had she not been fired from it. There were plenty of stories I had heard and read about her back then. There apparently was an incident that season, not long before the firing, that someone informed me about. At a full orchestral rehearsal with Christian Thielemann conducting, Battle stopped to either argue or confer with the conductor over tempi or some other issues, when that is not the proper time to do so, with the whole orchestra being paid and waiting. I don't know how many times she stopped what he was trying to do, but apparently he had it, since at one point he's reputed to have said "Get the cover!" (the understudy) and she stormed off. There were reports that she told people not to look at her ON STAGE when she was rehearsing, as people looking at her was making her nervous. There's the possibly true and infamous one about her calling her manager on her phone from her limo or car to ask him to telephone her driver to turn off the air conditioning or some other ridiculous demand. But all this was building up to the firing. Apparently Levine didn't do anything about her up to this time, since she was a friend of his. But then Joe Volpe ascended to actually running the Met after Levine had left the position of General Manager to only be Music Director. Regarding the firing, i believe they were rehearsing "Daughter of the Regiment" which she had previously at the time just done at San Francisco Opera; folks there had t-shirts apparently proclaiming "We Survived the [Kathleen] Battle!". I think Joe Volpe finally stepped in either at or following a Sitzprobe where Battle just said something really mean directed at Elias. I don't know what was said. But Rosalind Elias was, as you said, a beloved member of the Met family for many years, as well as a close friend of Joe Volpe. Volpe fired Battle, and it was probably the biggest firing headlines from the Met since Maria Callas, given Battle's fame at the time and her close relationship to Levine. |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: larry13 09:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - PlayWiz 05:05 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| And, re her Susanna in "Figaro," there was the time--years and years before she was fired--when she threw all the belongings of Carol Vaness(the Countess)out of Vaness' dressing room because Battle thought SHE should have been assigned the "#1" ladies dressing room. Talk about a toxic workplace. And, probably because of Levine, this was allowed. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Zelgo 10:34 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - larry13 09:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| It seems that the MET's firing of Battle gave courage to all the other great opera houses to stop booking her. Did Battle ever appear on stage anywhere in an opera after that? |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: larry13 11:25 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Zelgo 10:34 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| I've always read that she never ever appeared again in a staged opera anywhere in the world. It is a bit amazing to me that it took the Met(finally)firing her for all these other opera houses to stop hiring her, no matter what they'd had to endure during earlier engagements. |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:35 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - larry13 11:25 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| "It is a bit amazing to me that it took the Met (finally) firing her for all these other opera houses to stop hiring her, no matter what they'd had to endure during earlier engagements." Agreed. I guess it speaks to human nature, and doesn't speak very well of it at all :-( |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 05:57 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - PlayWiz 05:05 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Thanks! :-) | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:48 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - PlayWiz 12:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| well Liz got it wrong in at least one respect. ...unless she was referring to something else. LOL |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 12:52 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - ryhog 12:48 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I'm not sure how she got it wrong. I don't remember her specific language, but it was pretty clear to whom she was referring, certainly to those following classical music at the time. I think it was in the NY Daily News. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 01:03 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - PlayWiz 12:52 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I wasn't questioning that the reference was to him, but she said the Lincoln Center board and it would have been the Met board. (And had it been the LC board, it would have been someone else.) Just me being picky about gossip that doesn't pay close attention to the details. :-) | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 01:27 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 01:13 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - ryhog 01:03 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| It was a long time ago, and I forget the language she used. It was about someone prominent who had been arrested and some group/board of people with money and power pondering whether to continue making payments for this particular person. I'm pretty certain she named Lincoln Center (and/or one of the great cultural institutions in NYC) in some capacity, but not the Met specifically. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 10:47 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: James Levine passed away over a week ago - ryhog 10:33 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I think the Met is in good hands with Yannick Nezet-Seguin. I've never heard the orchestra sound better than in his performances. Peter Gelb is another story - so many good nights at the opera - and yet so many horrible new productions. Being shutdown for what will be close to 18 months, all big arts organizations are going to need help from their staff and unions to make the first year or so after reopening work | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:36 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - NewtonUK 10:47 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| The issue is not YN-S's capabilities as a conductor or Gelb's programming. The crisis of the moment is not one that can be laid at the feet of "staff and unions." The orchestra's critical mass (you know, the one Jimmy built) is on the verge of dissipating, and reversing that calls for unimaginable leadership. I think that rebuilding the foundation of trust and respect and repairing the damage that has been done is a tall order and I'm not convinced Nezet-Seguin can achieve that, particularly if he also has to run interference for Gelb. I hope I am dead wrong. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 10:49 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 10:46 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: James Levine passed away over a week ago - ryhog 10:33 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| He was a great artist. During his tenure he gave the Met an international artistic stature as a house that it might never have had before, at least not during my lifetime. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: larry13 08:52 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - singleticket 10:46 am EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| No question he elevated considerably the quality of the orchestral playing--which is probably what you are referring to--but the Met had "an international artistic stature as a house" from, if not the day it opened, certainly decades and decades before Levine was even born. One can fault the quality of many of the conductors midcentury, the lack of adventurous repertory, the great singers who either debuted later than they should have or never even sang there. One can do this with probably all the other great opera houses during much of their histories. The Met was always considered one of the major companies in the world. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: singleticket 09:56 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: singleticket 09:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - larry13 08:52 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| I can't speak to the old house. I don't know much of its history. But the new Met was big, it had a huge repertory, it hosted major singers, it broke boundaries in terms of singers of color. But as a house and in terms of its international reputation it lacked an artistic guiding principle until Levine. The New York Times review of Levine's Met debut says it all. Allen Hughes of The New York Times wrote that Mr. Levine “may be one of the Metropolitan’s best podium acquisitions in some time.” The Met made acquisitions but it lacked an artistic persona. Levine gave the Met a guiding artistic agenda by putting the house on the map internationally as a dependable exemplar of orchestral opera performance. Now, if artists could also be humble, decent human beings at the same time as being gifted and driven, that would be a wonderful world. |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 11:28 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 11:18 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - singleticket 09:39 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| The Met had Rudolf Bing, quite a character himself, Edward Johnson, who had been a singer before turning to management, Giulio Gatti-Casazza (who had led La Scala), among other managers who ran the house both the old and new. There were always great singers and some not so great, great conductors and others not so well-regarded or remembered. Bing actually raised a lot of the staging standard by hiring Broadway people and famous directors like Tyrone Guthrie and Alfred Lunt to direct productions. Unfortunately, Bing also didn't want competition of the old house with the new -- which isn't always said, but others have vouched that this is true. Even though the old Met had some terrible sightlines and bad seats, with very limited space for scenery, it could have been used for productions, but Bing didn't want anyone to compete; however, he did have NY City Opera at Lincoln Center (which he was rather a snob about and didn't really consider them a rival until he began raiding some of their singers). It's a real shame such a beautiful theater was razed. Levine raised the orchestral standard consistently, though the chorus wasn't in great shape really until the 1990s after he had been there like 15 years as music director and finally cared about hiring a fine chorus master. But he wasn't the be-all and end-all. That was a lot of Met-generated self-serving publicity. Others, and myself I might add, were sometimes very happy to get someone else conducting Mozart or Strauss, for instance. The Carlos Kleiber "Der Rosenkavalier" was even better than the rather overhyped, but still really good "Boheme" that he did. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:21 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - PlayWiz 11:18 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| "Unfortunately, Bing also didn't want competition of the old house with the new -- which isn't always said, but others have vouched that this is true. Even though the old Met had some terrible sightlines and bad seats, with very limited space for scenery, it could have been used for productions, but Bing didn't want anyone to compete." I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Because of the severe limitations you noted, MOST NOTABLY the lack of storage space for scenery but also lack of depth to the stage, etc., the old Met was highly problematic from day one -- especially for opera, which it was supposedly designed for. What sort of arts organization do you imagine could have realistically moved into the old Met when the opera company moved to Lincoln Center? I suppose the old Met auditorium could have been reconfigured a bit for use as a concert hall, but once Carnegie Hall was saved (thank heaven) and it was decided that Avery Fisher Hall would be built, there was absolutely no need for that, either. So although I have heard this "non-compete" theory before, it has never made any sense to me. Can you explain further? |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 02:46 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:39 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:21 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| Some of the posters below immediately kind of make points I agree with, but I think Bing didn't want something akin to Hammerstein's opera company (which had given performances in NYC around the time the old Met commenced) or another opera company hiring world-class singers to compete with the Met in its new location. The old house when you see photos and videos of it, was a gloriously beautiful auditorium with much history and apparently excellent acoustics, despite its drawbacks backstage for scenery and some really bad sightlines in the house. But it was also a few blocks from the Broadway district -- it also could have housed some big musical extravaganza, even not selling seats with no view or blocked view of the stage, or done operas without hugely complicated and massive scenic requirements, since space was so limited. Or possibly rather than do a full-week of different operas every day, it could have been like some European houses where sometimes several performances of the same opera are done in a row, making the shifting of scenery more manageable. Or the theater could have been used for concerts, etc. Bing was a savvy manager who had run a world-class opera house before, and he didn't want direct competition in NY with the Met. He stressed the kinds of disadvantages of the old Met to get financing and the building of the new Met, but also made sure the old one would be destroyed. I don't think it needed to be. That's my point. There's a documentary about "The Opera House" from a few years ago that goes into this in further detail with great videos of the old Met and wonderful commentary from Leontyne Price in particular. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:29 am EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - PlayWiz 02:39 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| I am very familiar with THE OPERA HOUSE documentary, and I love it :-) I'm aware that, as you say, Bing wanted the old opera house destroyed. I don't dispute that. I'm just saying I still don't understand what the house could possibly have been used for if it had not been razed. Yes, it could have continued to be used for opera on the "stagione" system, as you state -- but again, what company would have produced those operas? And yes, the house could have been reconfigured to be used as a concert hall -- but again, what kind of concerts would they have been and who would have produced them, considering that Lincoln Center included a new concert hall, and although Carnegie Hall came very close to being demolished, that did not happen (thank heaven)? I guess the house could have been used for big musicals, perhaps with the highest balcony section(s) of seats closed -- but if it had been used for that, it would have not been in competition with the new Met in terms of repertory. Seems to me the only real danger the old Met could have presented if it stayed open would have been if world class European opera companies, or companies from other American cities, had booked it for stints in NYC, but that just doesn't seem realistic to me at all, not on any ongoing, frequent booking basis. |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 01:34 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 11:29 am EDT 03/20/21 | |
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| I don't know how the old house could have been used, I just know that these beautiful palaces with gorgeous acoustics are not very easily replaced. So many grand old buildings were torn down in that period as Carnegie Hall could have easily been, as well. Could the back stage have been refitted, redesigned, rethought? I'm from Detroit where a couple of these marvels, the Fox Theatre and Orchestra Hall were close to destruction. They were both saved and have thrived as venues for concerts, rock and classical. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:28 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Billhaven 01:34 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
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| "I don't know how the old house could have been used, I just know that these beautiful palaces with gorgeous acoustics are not very easily replaced. So many grand old buildings were torn down in that period as Carnegie Hall could have easily been, as well. Could the back stage have been refitted, redesigned, rethought? I'm from Detroit where a couple of these marvels, the Fox Theatre and Orchestra Hall were close to destruction. They were both saved and have thrived as venues for concerts, rock and classical." I agree with your sentiment 1,000 percent, but I hate to say it -- if the old Met opera house had been built correctly in the first place, with sufficient space for scenery storage and rehearsals, sufficient depth and wing space, and no posts or pillars apparently creating a great many obstructed view seats in the top balcony section, then the building wouldn't have had to be destroyed. I have always assumed there was no possibility of addressing these flaws, because the opera house sat smack dab in the middle of midtown Manhattan, so there was no room for expansion. It occurred to me that perhaps they could have dug some sort of a sub-basement for scenery storage -- but they probably couldn't even have done that, because of the subway. And even if that would have been possible, the issues with the shallowness of the stage and the limited wing space (and the sight lines) would have remained. |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:32 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 03:28 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
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| I have a feeling, if it were today, they would have engineered a solution, maybe over rather than under or something. (I won't even mention the Palace solution lol) Aside from that, if the mindset had been different, it certainly could have been redeployed as a concert space as Mr Hammerstein's opera house (also lacking in almost every respect backstage, and probably to a much greater degree) was and still is. The problem in Manhattan (as you know) is that city blocks are not really big enough for things like opera houses which is why LC was a unique opportunity. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:12 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - ryhog 07:32 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
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| "If the mindset had been different, it certainly could have been redeployed as a concert space as Mr Hammerstein's opera house (also lacking in almost every respect backstage, and probably to a much greater degree) was and still is." But again I ask, what kind of concerts would have been produced in that space, and who would have produced them in sufficient number to keep that huge theater viable? |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:18 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:12 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| The same kind that were and still are produced regularly (pre-covid) at Hammerstein Ballroom, the Beacon, and others. BAM Harvey is another example, though for theatre rather than concerts. Hell (no pun intended [or is it?]), people have even found ways to turn lovely Broadway theatres into churches without tearing them down. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 03:13 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:10 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:12 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| There are enterprising people who might have found ways to utilize that space. Rudolph Bing realized this too, since for all its faults and virtues, the old house had been used for many years. Bing played up all the faults and downplayed what NY would be missing at the old house and built up all the necessary things for advanced stagecraft, more stages and backstage and under the stage to allow much more scenery to be stored, etc to get the new house built. But he was mostly unsentimental and calculating as to the the destruction of the old house, allowing a final concert to sum up all the nostalgia and summon up the historical ghosts that had sung at the building. The old Met was too big to be the "Mini Met" that others have talked about for having smaller operas produced in a smaller, more intimate setting. But the old house represented something Bing didn't want around -- an existing opera house that someone else could have leveraged to get opera singers to give concerts, perhaps European houses on American tours to rent out, etc. It's possible buildings across the street or nearby could have been bought and converted to store scenery, at the right price as well. Or else potential producers would have been aware of what the technical limitations were of the house in future bookings. But a destroyed opera house kept out any possibilities. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 10:17 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:12 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| It is difficult to find producers and investors for a space that is gone. The old house had housed operas for 84 years. Somehow they were able to stage memorable operas despite the drawbacks. Look at theater spaces all over the country that have adapted. The Beacon Theatre was build for silent films. It has almost NO backstage space. And yet concerts and touring plays and the TONY awards have used it. The Boston Opera House also began its life as a movie palace. Should they have torn it down because people started going to cineplexes? The Boston opera used it for years , then the Boston Ballet. I saw Hello Dolly there just 2 years ago. The Shubert Theater in New Haven was judged unviable because of its second balcony and limited space. It was thought it couldn't house the large scale touring shows. They couldn't. But they COULD accommodate smaller tours, concerts and plays. It is a thriving arts organization. To paraphrase FIELD OF DREAMS, "If they tear it down, they won't come". | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:02 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:21 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| I'm guessing that the thinking was that someone might start a new opera company and move into the old theatre, despite it's obvious limitations. Then audiences, who were used to attending opera at the old theatre might continue to do so and not ever make the move with the Metropolitan Opera company to Lincoln Center. Change is tough for people and I'm sure that there were also people at the time complaining up, down, and sideways about the new theatre for any of dozens of reasons. So, if they had an opportunity to make a statement by serving their love of opera at the old theatre they loved, they'd probably have done that and abandoned the Metropolitan Opera (although these folks might characterize it as the Met moving uptown and abandoning them). Bing wanted his company at the new theatre to be THE place in New York to go to for a night at the opera. And Bing did such a good job of it that, even in a city as large as New York, there are no opera companies that even come close to rivaling the Met. NYCO gave them a run for their money for awhile, but couldn't sustain it. Maybe, even in major cities, there just aren't enough rich people into opera to sustain multiple major companies...are there any cities that are home to more than one major, world-class opera company? |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: allineedisthegirl 04:28 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - JereNYC 02:02 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| Berlin has two world-class opera companies. the Deutsche Oper and the Staats Oper Unter den Linden. A third, the Komische Oper, is a third solid, if not world-class, company. db |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:31 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - JereNYC 02:02 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| "I'm guessing that the thinking was that someone might start a new opera company and move into the old theatre, despite it's obvious limitations." I would say the chances of a new opera company being formed that would have remotely had the resources and popularity to move into the old Metropolitan Opera house were so infinitesimally small as to be practically zero. If anything, perhaps Bing feared that the New York City Opera might move to the old Met opera house? I'm not sure if that possibility was ever even mentioned, not am i sure of the timeline of the decision that NYCO would move into the New York State Theater, thereby becoming even more direct competition for the Met in terms of being located RIGHT NEXT TO IT at Lincoln Center! "Bing wanted his company at the new theatre to be THE place in New York to go to for a night at the opera. And Bing did such a good job of it that, even in a city as large as New York, there are no opera companies that even come close to rivaling the Met. NYCO gave them a run for their money for awhile, but couldn't sustain it." Just for the record, NYCO sustained it -- first at City Center, then at the New York State Theater -- for about 70 years, which is quite a long while :-) |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 03:47 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 03:31 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| Also, as is so often the case, the failure to sustain occurred on the business side. Although there was plenty wrong internally, the dagger in the heart was the '08 crash. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:46 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - JereNYC 02:02 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| A couple of thoughts and I think the answer to your question is no, although I am not sure that a second substantial one would necessarily need to be world class. I would think the inquiry is more about competition than stature. Regarding the old Met, aside from just getting used to traveling somewhere unfamiliar, the old Met LOOKED like an opera house (once again, from the Victorian vantage point) and I am confident some of the reluctant ones were into the old world grandeur. And regarding competition, it is well to remember that this has always been something on the minds of the Met's tenders. The Met did not pay Oscar Hammerstein over $25 million (in today's dollars) to not present opera on 34th Street as an act of charity. It wasn't so much that the two were necessarily of the same stature but that Hammerstein was offering opera lovers a cheaper alternative. Fascinating stuff. Beyond that, while I agree the space was defective when built, the truth is all of this happened at a time when tearing down beautiful old buildings (e.g., Penn Station and the many others that were threatened with demolition but thankfully saved) was the rage. To say the 60s were not a good period for preservationists is well beyond an understatement. | |
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