Threaded Order Chronological Order
| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:07 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - MRH 10:14 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| Would I rather a child sing about their wet ass pussy or sing a song that can easily be interpreted as a man coercing a woman to sleep with him? I mean, both are kind of gross to me, but at least one of them lets the women be in charge. | |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:37 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 11:07 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| "Would I rather a child sing about their wet ass pussy or sing a song that can easily be interpreted as a man coercing a woman to sleep with him? I mean, both are kind of gross to me, but at least one of them lets the women be in charge." Well, that interpretation is very......interesting. |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 05:20 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 05:14 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Michael_Portantiere 03:37 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| So for the past 5 years our entire culture (including this board) has discusses near every Christmas season how "Baby It's Cold Outside" sounds a little rapey, and only sounds a little less rapey when it's gender reversed. (I don't recall it coming up as a topic this past year, so perhaps we've all put that conversation to bed.) Not sure how you missed it. The whole song is one person saying all the reasons they need to leave the house and the other person ignoring all of their concerns while plying them with more drinks. Midway through, there's this observation: Ah, you're very pushy you know? I like to think of it as opportunistic And the ending is: Okay fine, just another drink then That took a lot of convincing! Which, just as written words, is kind of gross. The song can be approached in a way where they're both in on the game, but it can also be approached where one of them is breaking down the other. Either way, we've been talking about this song in these terms for years, so there's nothing new, interesting, nor unique to me in that observation. In any event, there's a rich irony in someone who is scandalized by the self-created thought of young girls singing about their pussies insisting that they sing instead about not being able to leave someone's house while being plied with cigarettes and booze. Seems odd to me. |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:45 am EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 05:14 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| "The song can be approached in a way where they're both in on the game, but it can also be approached where one of them is breaking down the other." I have always seen it played the first way -- as intended by the songwriter -- and never once seen it played the second way. "In any event, there's a rich irony in someone who is scandalized by the self-created thought of young girls singing about their pussies insisting that they sing instead about not being able to leave someone's house while being plied with cigarettes and booze. Seems odd to me." Of course, no one is insisting that young girls sing "Baby, It's Cold Outside" INSTEAD of "WAP," so I don't know where you got that from. At any rate, I continue to find your perspective on this exceedingly odd -- so I guess we're even :-) Fun fact: If you actually pay attention to the actual lyrics of "Baby....," the persuader is not actually "plying" the other person with booze or cigarettes. Rather, the person who keeps saying maybe s/he should leave first brings up booze by saying "Well, maybe just a half a drink more" and later brings up cigarettes by saying "Maybe just a cigarette more." And there is absolutely no indication whatsoever in the song that the person who keeps saying may s/he should leave is UNABLE to leave. I always thing it's best, in discussions like this, to confine ourselves to what's actually written, as opposed to what we have created in our minds. (And yes, I'm well aware of the highly controversial "What's in this drink?" line, but I don't have the energy to get into discussion of that right now.) |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Last Edit: Chromolume 10:00 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:58 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 05:14 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| The song can be approached in a way where they're both in on the game Yes, it can. And I feel that if Loesser wanted to write a song about dark seduction and rape, he would have written (and did write) "Don't Cry" instead. The playful music of "Baby It's Cold Outside" does, I think, signal that she's playing the game right along with him. The darkly seductive (and downright menacing) music in "Don't Cry" tells a different story. Too much has been made over this whole thing. There are better musical topics for future Christmases: Why does Burl Ives think we're all deaf? Exactly who would build a "Parson Brown" snowman, and what's with all this conspiring in front of the fireplace? (Enough with the conspiracy theories...) Can that drummer twerp play ANYTHING except pa-ruppa-pum-pum already? Besot??? |
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| re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture | |
| Posted by: DistantDrumming 08:28 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: WAP, Sondheim, and the Degradation of Culture - Singapore/Fling 05:14 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| Snopes has a good summary of the broader conversation that Sing'/Fling is referencing. | |
| Link | https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/12/18/baby-its-cold-outside/ |
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