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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:21 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - PlayWiz 11:18 pm EDT 03/17/21 | |
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| "Unfortunately, Bing also didn't want competition of the old house with the new -- which isn't always said, but others have vouched that this is true. Even though the old Met had some terrible sightlines and bad seats, with very limited space for scenery, it could have been used for productions, but Bing didn't want anyone to compete." I don't understand what point you're trying to make here. Because of the severe limitations you noted, MOST NOTABLY the lack of storage space for scenery but also lack of depth to the stage, etc., the old Met was highly problematic from day one -- especially for opera, which it was supposedly designed for. What sort of arts organization do you imagine could have realistically moved into the old Met when the opera company moved to Lincoln Center? I suppose the old Met auditorium could have been reconfigured a bit for use as a concert hall, but once Carnegie Hall was saved (thank heaven) and it was decided that Avery Fisher Hall would be built, there was absolutely no need for that, either. So although I have heard this "non-compete" theory before, it has never made any sense to me. Can you explain further? |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 02:46 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 02:39 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:21 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| Some of the posters below immediately kind of make points I agree with, but I think Bing didn't want something akin to Hammerstein's opera company (which had given performances in NYC around the time the old Met commenced) or another opera company hiring world-class singers to compete with the Met in its new location. The old house when you see photos and videos of it, was a gloriously beautiful auditorium with much history and apparently excellent acoustics, despite its drawbacks backstage for scenery and some really bad sightlines in the house. But it was also a few blocks from the Broadway district -- it also could have housed some big musical extravaganza, even not selling seats with no view or blocked view of the stage, or done operas without hugely complicated and massive scenic requirements, since space was so limited. Or possibly rather than do a full-week of different operas every day, it could have been like some European houses where sometimes several performances of the same opera are done in a row, making the shifting of scenery more manageable. Or the theater could have been used for concerts, etc. Bing was a savvy manager who had run a world-class opera house before, and he didn't want direct competition in NY with the Met. He stressed the kinds of disadvantages of the old Met to get financing and the building of the new Met, but also made sure the old one would be destroyed. I don't think it needed to be. That's my point. There's a documentary about "The Opera House" from a few years ago that goes into this in further detail with great videos of the old Met and wonderful commentary from Leontyne Price in particular. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:29 am EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - PlayWiz 02:39 pm EDT 03/19/21 | |
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| I am very familiar with THE OPERA HOUSE documentary, and I love it :-) I'm aware that, as you say, Bing wanted the old opera house destroyed. I don't dispute that. I'm just saying I still don't understand what the house could possibly have been used for if it had not been razed. Yes, it could have continued to be used for opera on the "stagione" system, as you state -- but again, what company would have produced those operas? And yes, the house could have been reconfigured to be used as a concert hall -- but again, what kind of concerts would they have been and who would have produced them, considering that Lincoln Center included a new concert hall, and although Carnegie Hall came very close to being demolished, that did not happen (thank heaven)? I guess the house could have been used for big musicals, perhaps with the highest balcony section(s) of seats closed -- but if it had been used for that, it would have not been in competition with the new Met in terms of repertory. Seems to me the only real danger the old Met could have presented if it stayed open would have been if world class European opera companies, or companies from other American cities, had booked it for stints in NYC, but that just doesn't seem realistic to me at all, not on any ongoing, frequent booking basis. |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 01:34 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 11:29 am EDT 03/20/21 | |
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| I don't know how the old house could have been used, I just know that these beautiful palaces with gorgeous acoustics are not very easily replaced. So many grand old buildings were torn down in that period as Carnegie Hall could have easily been, as well. Could the back stage have been refitted, redesigned, rethought? I'm from Detroit where a couple of these marvels, the Fox Theatre and Orchestra Hall were close to destruction. They were both saved and have thrived as venues for concerts, rock and classical. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:28 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Billhaven 01:34 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
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| "I don't know how the old house could have been used, I just know that these beautiful palaces with gorgeous acoustics are not very easily replaced. So many grand old buildings were torn down in that period as Carnegie Hall could have easily been, as well. Could the back stage have been refitted, redesigned, rethought? I'm from Detroit where a couple of these marvels, the Fox Theatre and Orchestra Hall were close to destruction. They were both saved and have thrived as venues for concerts, rock and classical." I agree with your sentiment 1,000 percent, but I hate to say it -- if the old Met opera house had been built correctly in the first place, with sufficient space for scenery storage and rehearsals, sufficient depth and wing space, and no posts or pillars apparently creating a great many obstructed view seats in the top balcony section, then the building wouldn't have had to be destroyed. I have always assumed there was no possibility of addressing these flaws, because the opera house sat smack dab in the middle of midtown Manhattan, so there was no room for expansion. It occurred to me that perhaps they could have dug some sort of a sub-basement for scenery storage -- but they probably couldn't even have done that, because of the subway. And even if that would have been possible, the issues with the shallowness of the stage and the limited wing space (and the sight lines) would have remained. |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 07:32 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 03:28 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
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| I have a feeling, if it were today, they would have engineered a solution, maybe over rather than under or something. (I won't even mention the Palace solution lol) Aside from that, if the mindset had been different, it certainly could have been redeployed as a concert space as Mr Hammerstein's opera house (also lacking in almost every respect backstage, and probably to a much greater degree) was and still is. The problem in Manhattan (as you know) is that city blocks are not really big enough for things like opera houses which is why LC was a unique opportunity. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:12 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - ryhog 07:32 pm EDT 03/20/21 | |
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| "If the mindset had been different, it certainly could have been redeployed as a concert space as Mr Hammerstein's opera house (also lacking in almost every respect backstage, and probably to a much greater degree) was and still is." But again I ask, what kind of concerts would have been produced in that space, and who would have produced them in sufficient number to keep that huge theater viable? |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:18 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:12 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| The same kind that were and still are produced regularly (pre-covid) at Hammerstein Ballroom, the Beacon, and others. BAM Harvey is another example, though for theatre rather than concerts. Hell (no pun intended [or is it?]), people have even found ways to turn lovely Broadway theatres into churches without tearing them down. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Last Edit: PlayWiz 03:13 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 03:10 pm EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:12 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| There are enterprising people who might have found ways to utilize that space. Rudolph Bing realized this too, since for all its faults and virtues, the old house had been used for many years. Bing played up all the faults and downplayed what NY would be missing at the old house and built up all the necessary things for advanced stagecraft, more stages and backstage and under the stage to allow much more scenery to be stored, etc to get the new house built. But he was mostly unsentimental and calculating as to the the destruction of the old house, allowing a final concert to sum up all the nostalgia and summon up the historical ghosts that had sung at the building. The old Met was too big to be the "Mini Met" that others have talked about for having smaller operas produced in a smaller, more intimate setting. But the old house represented something Bing didn't want around -- an existing opera house that someone else could have leveraged to get opera singers to give concerts, perhaps European houses on American tours to rent out, etc. It's possible buildings across the street or nearby could have been bought and converted to store scenery, at the right price as well. Or else potential producers would have been aware of what the technical limitations were of the house in future bookings. But a destroyed opera house kept out any possibilities. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 10:17 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:12 am EDT 03/21/21 | |
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| It is difficult to find producers and investors for a space that is gone. The old house had housed operas for 84 years. Somehow they were able to stage memorable operas despite the drawbacks. Look at theater spaces all over the country that have adapted. The Beacon Theatre was build for silent films. It has almost NO backstage space. And yet concerts and touring plays and the TONY awards have used it. The Boston Opera House also began its life as a movie palace. Should they have torn it down because people started going to cineplexes? The Boston opera used it for years , then the Boston Ballet. I saw Hello Dolly there just 2 years ago. The Shubert Theater in New Haven was judged unviable because of its second balcony and limited space. It was thought it couldn't house the large scale touring shows. They couldn't. But they COULD accommodate smaller tours, concerts and plays. It is a thriving arts organization. To paraphrase FIELD OF DREAMS, "If they tear it down, they won't come". | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:02 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 01:21 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| I'm guessing that the thinking was that someone might start a new opera company and move into the old theatre, despite it's obvious limitations. Then audiences, who were used to attending opera at the old theatre might continue to do so and not ever make the move with the Metropolitan Opera company to Lincoln Center. Change is tough for people and I'm sure that there were also people at the time complaining up, down, and sideways about the new theatre for any of dozens of reasons. So, if they had an opportunity to make a statement by serving their love of opera at the old theatre they loved, they'd probably have done that and abandoned the Metropolitan Opera (although these folks might characterize it as the Met moving uptown and abandoning them). Bing wanted his company at the new theatre to be THE place in New York to go to for a night at the opera. And Bing did such a good job of it that, even in a city as large as New York, there are no opera companies that even come close to rivaling the Met. NYCO gave them a run for their money for awhile, but couldn't sustain it. Maybe, even in major cities, there just aren't enough rich people into opera to sustain multiple major companies...are there any cities that are home to more than one major, world-class opera company? |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: allineedisthegirl 04:28 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - JereNYC 02:02 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| Berlin has two world-class opera companies. the Deutsche Oper and the Staats Oper Unter den Linden. A third, the Komische Oper, is a third solid, if not world-class, company. db |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:31 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - JereNYC 02:02 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| "I'm guessing that the thinking was that someone might start a new opera company and move into the old theatre, despite it's obvious limitations." I would say the chances of a new opera company being formed that would have remotely had the resources and popularity to move into the old Metropolitan Opera house were so infinitesimally small as to be practically zero. If anything, perhaps Bing feared that the New York City Opera might move to the old Met opera house? I'm not sure if that possibility was ever even mentioned, not am i sure of the timeline of the decision that NYCO would move into the New York State Theater, thereby becoming even more direct competition for the Met in terms of being located RIGHT NEXT TO IT at Lincoln Center! "Bing wanted his company at the new theatre to be THE place in New York to go to for a night at the opera. And Bing did such a good job of it that, even in a city as large as New York, there are no opera companies that even come close to rivaling the Met. NYCO gave them a run for their money for awhile, but couldn't sustain it." Just for the record, NYCO sustained it -- first at City Center, then at the New York State Theater -- for about 70 years, which is quite a long while :-) |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 03:47 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - Michael_Portantiere 03:31 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| Also, as is so often the case, the failure to sustain occurred on the business side. Although there was plenty wrong internally, the dagger in the heart was the '08 crash. | |
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| re: James Levine passed away over a week ago | |
| Posted by: ryhog 02:46 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
| In reply to: re: James Levine passed away over a week ago - JereNYC 02:02 pm EDT 03/18/21 | |
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| A couple of thoughts and I think the answer to your question is no, although I am not sure that a second substantial one would necessarily need to be world class. I would think the inquiry is more about competition than stature. Regarding the old Met, aside from just getting used to traveling somewhere unfamiliar, the old Met LOOKED like an opera house (once again, from the Victorian vantage point) and I am confident some of the reluctant ones were into the old world grandeur. And regarding competition, it is well to remember that this has always been something on the minds of the Met's tenders. The Met did not pay Oscar Hammerstein over $25 million (in today's dollars) to not present opera on 34th Street as an act of charity. It wasn't so much that the two were necessarily of the same stature but that Hammerstein was offering opera lovers a cheaper alternative. Fascinating stuff. Beyond that, while I agree the space was defective when built, the truth is all of this happened at a time when tearing down beautiful old buildings (e.g., Penn Station and the many others that were threatened with demolition but thankfully saved) was the rage. To say the 60s were not a good period for preservationists is well beyond an understatement. | |
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