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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 07:01 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Chromolume 06:47 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| Good point, but I guess I would say it's arguable. As you may know, that whole section ("When she mentioned how her aunt bit off the spoon....") was not originally in the score and was added only after the show began performing out of town pre-Broadway. And the reason it was added was that, apparently, at least some of the audience did not recognize Freddy as the fellow from the Ascot scene, and "On the Street Where You Live" was not going over for that reason. So the new section was added to clarify Freddy's identity, but it was not originally conceived as a verse for the song. Plus it's separated from the song proper by a few lines of dialogue. | |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:26 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Michael_Portantiere 07:01 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| Yes. But there are any number of verses that are separated by dialogue before the refrain. Plus, it's not the only time a verse has been written after the fact. (One that comes to mind is the verse that Sondheim had supposedly written to go with "Some People," but Merman wouldn't learn it. One that he DID add is the verse to "Good Thing Going" as sung by Gussie in the revised Merrily.) In any case, the section works as a verse usually would, as a sung intro to set up the refrain. |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: JohnDunlop 10:07 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Chromolume 08:26 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| I saw Ethel Merman in Gypsy when I was 16 years old. One could not fire Merman in preparation for the musical in 1959. Who could have replaced her? | |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:39 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - JohnDunlop 10:07 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| "I saw Ethel Merman in Gypsy when I was 16 years old. One could not fire Merman in preparation for the musical in 1959. Who could have replaced her?" Ummm.....what????? |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: larry13 10:37 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - JohnDunlop 10:07 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| Agreed. But who was suggesting she should have been fired? | |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:49 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - larry13 10:37 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| I don't think anyone was. :-) The story of that unused verse to "Some People" is, I think, recounted in Zadan's "Sondheim & Co" if I recall correctly. He sought legal advice after she refused to learn the verse, and he was told the story about Merman refusing new lyrics in Call Me Madam, where she (in)famously said, "Call me Miss Bird's Eye - this show is frozen." :-) |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:29 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Chromolume 08:26 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| Gotcha. I don't own the printed score of MY FAIR LADY, so I don't know if the piece of music in question is presented therein as a verse to "On the Street Where You Live" or as a separate item. I guess that would give us our answer. Anyone? | |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:55 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Michael_Portantiere 09:29 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| I have several different copies of the score, and all of them include that section at the top of what is called "On The Street Where You Live" - it's not a separate number. | |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:40 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Chromolume 09:55 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| Okay, thanks. | |
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| re: lyrics (above) et al. | |
| Posted by: peter3053 06:09 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Michael_Portantiere 11:40 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| First, thank you Michael for a fabulous analysis which started such an illuminating thread - so stimulating and precise! For me, one of the more egregious faults of the lyrics is this attempt at rhyme from "You Did It!" (pardon if I've missed some reference to it above): Her English is too good, he said, Which clearly indicates that she is foreign. Whereas others are instructed in their native language English people aren'. (Quoted from the appendicized lyrics published in "On The Street Where I Live" by Alan Jay Lerner) Where to begin? First, in the English accent, "foreign" and "aren't" don't rhyme at all, because whereas in New York "aren't" is pronounced as a two-syllable word and, yes, in New York does have an "a" sound that sounds more like the "aw" sound of "foreign", in England the word is pronounced as a single syllable word, sounding like this: "Uhnt". Unlike the Irish and Scots (and Elizabethan English) who influenced the strong "r" sound in the American accent, the English have much more clipped pronunciations and fewer dipthongs, as we all know. Second, as published by Lerner himself, he cheats on the alleged rhyme by dropping the final "t" of "aren't" - for no reason. (Keeping it wouldn't have helped!) If Higgins were attempting to imitate the accent of Kaparthy at this point, it would mean that the foreigner learned his English in America ("where they haven't used it in years!). But then why would Higgins pick up on this most unusual accenting of Kaparthy when there is no evidence of such a peculiarity in the scenes in which the man himself appears? I suspect Lerner had a brief attack of the Yip Harburgs when he tried on this bit of "peculiarish" not so "grandish" whimsy! One other moment in the film that appalls me is that during "Just You Wait" (apropos of the bad dubbing you identify above) Audrey Hepburn's mouth is clearly shaped to sing "Ha Ha Ha, 'Enry 'Higgins" whereas the dub sound is "Ho Ho Ho, 'Enry 'Higgins", which happens the second time she does that bit of the song just after she stands up out of the chair. Who was it who said that, in George Cukor's hands, "My Fair Lady" had "not so much been preserved on film but rather, embalmed"? Embalmed, with several inherited flaws. But like so many, none of these matters prevent me from loving the whole glorious show, which just goes to prove that humans can love the imperfect sometimes with even more zeal than the perfect ... if we ever find such a thing. |
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| re: lyrics (above) et al. | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:32 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: lyrics (above) et al. - peter3053 06:09 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| ***If Higgins were attempting to imitate the accent of Kaparthy at this point, it would mean that the foreigner learned his English in America ("where they haven't used it in years!). But then why would Higgins pick up on this most unusual accenting of Kaparthy when there is no evidence of such a peculiarity in the scenes in which the man himself appears?***** Not only that, but even if Karpathy were attempting to pronounce "aren't" in the American English way, he'd still be mispronouncing it by leaving off the "t" at the end -- and since it is hammered home to us that Karpathy himself is a stickler for correct pronunciation, that would NEVER happen. I'm sure Lerner self-justified "aren" as an attempt to make fun of Karpathy's pronunciation, but again, that makes zero sense for that character. ****But like so many, none of these matters prevent me from loving the whole glorious show, which just goes to prove that humans can love the imperfect sometimes with even more zeal than the perfect ... if we ever find such a thing.*** EXACTLY. As I've noted elsewhere, it really bothers me when people who love a show, film, etc. can't recognize and discuss its flaws while still loving it -- and, conversely, when people who despise a show, film, etc. can't acknowledge what might be good in it. P.S. Thanks for your kind words about my OP :-) |
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| T-glottalization: “aren’” | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 01:43 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: lyrics (above) et al. - Michael_Portantiere 12:32 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| Swallowing the T consonant sound is known as T-glottalization, and it’s prevalent in many British dialects, especially Cockney and the northern dialects like Mancunian, where it most often occurs in the middle of words. Listen to Stanley Holloway do it when he sings, “Wi’ a lih-ul bit o’ bloomin’ luck.” The whole song is full of glottalization. That said, sometimes the better educated classes—especially ladies—did it, too, with the ending of contractions. So it can happen that one says “aren’” in place of “aren’t.” The situation here is murky and weird, though, because Higgins is presumably imitating Karpathy at this point, so none of this makes sense. Chalk up another one to Lerner being messy. Laura |
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| re: lyrics (above) et al. | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:52 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: re: lyrics (above) et al. - peter3053 06:09 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| I suspect Lerner had a brief attack of the Yip Harburgs when he tried on this bit of "peculiarish" not so "grandish" whimsy! Funny you should say that, because my first instinct when reading your comments on "aren'" was to think of the horn/your'n rhyme in "The Great Come And Get It Day." Normally, rhymes like that would be fine, IMO, in the spirit of having fun with the language. Ira Gershwin did a lot of that too. But for Higgins to be doing that doesn't make a lot of sense at all. (If the guy actually had a sense of humor about language it might be different...but he clearly doesn'.) :-) |
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| re: lyrics (above) et al. | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:40 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: lyrics (above) et al. - Chromolume 08:52 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| ***Funny you should say that, because my first instinct when reading your comments on "aren'" was to think of the horn/your'n rhyme in "The Great Come And Get It Day." Normally, rhymes like that would be fine, IMO, in the spirit of having fun with the language. Ira Gershwin did a lot of that too. But for Higgins to be doing that doesn't make a lot of sense at all. (If the guy actually had a sense of humor about language it might be different...but he clearly doesn'.) :-)*** Agreed completely. But also, I have no problem with "your'n" in FINIAN'S RAINBOW, because it seems to me that even if Woody wouldn't necessarily use that word, he would be familiar with it because some of the sharecroppers he lives with might speak that way. |
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| re: lyrics (above) et al. | |
| Posted by: peter3053 05:23 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: lyrics (above) et al. - Michael_Portantiere 12:40 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| And of course, "If Ever I would Leave You" in Camelot comes completely undone over "Fall" - Oh no No in Springtime, Summer, Winter or .............. autumn... |
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| re: lyrics (above) et al. | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 06:33 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: lyrics (above) et al. - peter3053 05:23 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| Ha! I never thought of that! But maybe we can argue that, since Camelot was (is?) a mythical place, regular rules of grammar, usage, and Britishisms/Americanisms don't apply :-) | |
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| re: lyrics (above) et al. | |
| Posted by: peter3053 09:43 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: lyrics (above) et al. - Michael_Portantiere 06:33 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| Yes, I did think that, but couldn't help point it out. (I'm wicked.) Also, Lancelot is French ... so now we have a Hungarian Grammarian AND a French Knight who studied English in America courtesy of Lerner, who, when it comes to national idiom, seems to have been a slow learner. Mind you, let's not get into Sondheim's struggles with anglicisms in Sweeney Todd ... where politicians in England don't strictly "run" for office, and "crumpet" doesn't quite mean the same as "parsley"... but perhaps the Brechtian quality of the show excuses those; certainly nobody ever seemed to worry that Len Cariou didn't bother with an English accent, nor a likely dialect for a lower-class barber; indeed, I remember how the audience laughed at the line "What's the sound of the world out there ... / It's man devouring man my dear ..." which seemed to make the show about New York in the late 70s more than England in the 1840s. But I'm not complaining about the most brilliant night in the theatre ever. Meanwhile back to an English phonologist from an English tonsorialist ... |
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