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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 04:16 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Quick point: just on the grammar... - Michael_Portantiere 03:43 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| "I'd be every bit as willing for a dentist to be drilling as to ever let a woman in my life." This solves the redundancy and the as/than problem without altering the rhyme, the rhythm, or the meaning. The split infinitive, to me, is inconsequential--everybody does it from time to time--even grammarians--in agitated speech as opposed to careful writing. | |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:10 am EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - keikekaze 04:16 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| "I'd be every bit as willing for a dentist to be drilling as to ever let a woman in my life." This solves the redundancy and the as/than problem without altering the rhyme, the rhythm, or the meaning. The split infinitive, to me, is inconsequential--everybody does it from time to time--even grammarians--in agitated speech as opposed to careful writing. Believe it or not, I once came up with that same correction of the lyrics, and I do agree if it's a good job if one doesn't mind the split infinitive. (Another poster here would still object to "willing for," but I'm not entirely sure that's an error.) |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 08:35 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - keikekaze 04:16 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| I love the flow of your revised lyric. Are there different grammatical rules for lyrics as opposed to prose? | |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 08:49 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - BroadwayTonyJ 08:35 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| Are there different grammatical rules for lyrics as opposed to prose? Oh, I don't think there are really any grammatical rules for writing lyrics, or we wouldn't have such fine songs as "Is You Is Or Is You Ain't My Baby?" and many others along those lines. I quoted one E.Y. Harburg lyric in the "songs about spring" thread yesterday that is--deliberately--a grammatical train wreck, but a delightful lyric all the same. It all depends on the character who's supposed to be singing. |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:49 am EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - keikekaze 08:49 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| "Oh, I don't think there are really any grammatical rules for writing lyrics." I think there are, or should be, in cases where we would expect that the character singing the lyrics in question (if the song is from a show) would/should express himself/herself/themself according to rules of correct grammar and usage, but of course, not in other cases -- to cite only one example among a great many, Tony's songs in THE MOST HAPPY FELLA. |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 12:09 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - Michael_Portantiere 11:49 am EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| But we are talking about writing for the theater, not for a master's thesis or a legal brief. Songs have to be make theatrical sense. Singers have to be able to sing them. If the lyrics can not be understood or do not flow easily off the tongue then they are useless. I feel badly that instead of appreciating the wit and elegance of these songs you are obsessed by a split infinitive. Shelley Winter's shoes. | |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:21 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - Billhaven 12:09 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| "But we are talking about writing for the theater, not for a master's thesis or a legal brief. Songs have to be make theatrical sense. Singers have to be able to sing them. If the lyrics can not be understood or do not flow easily off the tongue then they are useless." I honestly can't understand why you see this as a choice between the two. Why shouldn't Alan Jay Lerner have been expected to write lyrics that were grammatically correct and would ALSO be very singable, would "flow easily," and would "make theatrical sense," when most other lyricists who are held in esteem were perfectly capable of doing so? |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:54 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - keikekaze 04:16 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| I think that adjusted lyric is the same as one I posted years ago. As for splitting infinitives, there is no reason for grammarians not to do it in careful writing. The basic rule is: It's best not to do it, except when it's better if you do. This goes back to at least as long ago as the first edition (1926) of Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage (a book so famous and so widely used that Thurber wrote a long multi-chapter parody of it). I'm surprised that people here think that there is any hard-and-fast rule against splitting infinitives. The Thurber parody is one of the funniest things I've ever read. |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:52 am EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - AlanScott 07:54 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| "As for splitting infinitives, there is no reason for grammarians not to do it in careful writing. The basic rule is: It's best not to do it, except when it's better if you do." So, in other words, it's a matter of opinion :-) And I suppose different people might have different opinions as to whether "to ever let" is better phrasing than "ever to let," or if they are equivalent. |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 06:33 am EDT 04/03/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - Michael_Portantiere 11:52 am EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| Pretty much everything is a matter of opinion when it comes to writing. Or perhaps that should be: When it comes to writing, pretty much everything is a matter of opinion. Or: When it comes to writing, everything is pretty much a matter of opinion. Still, anyone who thinks that "ever to let a woman in my life" is better than "to ever let a woman in my life" is someone whose writing I probably don't want to read. :) |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:40 pm EDT 04/03/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - AlanScott 06:33 am EDT 04/03/21 | |
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| ***Still, anyone who thinks that "ever to let a woman in my life" is better than "to ever let a woman in my life" is someone whose writing I probably don't want to read. :)*** Really? "than ever to let a woman in my life" doesn't sound at all awkward to me, whereas I think attempts to avoid using prepositions at the ends of sentences often sound INCREDIBLY awkward. So that's a "rule" I never pay attention to :-) |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: pagates 01:12 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - Michael_Portantiere 11:52 am EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| Another question that occurs to me in all this is what differences might there be between English (British) grammar in 1912/13 and 1955/56 and 2021. I trust the relevant rules and expectations for grammar would be those that were current in Edwardian England. I don't pretend to know what they were, but I venture that they have been changes. | |
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| Various thoughts and quotes, including a quote from Shaw on split infinitives | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 08:03 am EDT 04/03/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - pagates 01:12 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| In the New York Times of August 18, 1929, there was an article titled “The Split Infinitive Again Finds Support.” From the article: “[S]ince about 1919 it has ceased to be a crime to split infinitives. Dr. Frank H. Vizetelly, lexicographer, indicates as much, and he is warmly seconded by Dr. H. W. Fowler, editor of the New Oxford Dictionary.” Later in the article: “Writers of current literature increasingly violate the old rule that, perhaps more than any other, made composition stilted and tended to discourage the spread of learning.” As I mentioned in a reply to keikekaze, Fowler in his A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, first published in 1926, spent several pages writing about why the blanket prohibition against split infinitives was pretty silly. I never read it till last night, and I was surprised to find that it was very funny. Fowler knew how to make fun of people. Split infinitives can be found in Chaucer, Shakespeare, Byron, Hardy, Keats, Twain, Matthew Arnold and I’m sure plenty of other major English-language writers before Shaw. In fact, I found a few articles from the early 1900s mocking academic strictures on what is supposed to be unacceptable in good writing, with the prohibition on split infinitives being among the targets. But Shaw was an iconoclast, and he created another iconoclast in Higgins. While Higgins certainly would have been very knowledgeable about what was considered good grammar and what was not, he might well have found some of the rules silly and not worth following. Indeed, I found a number of articles and books in which a letter that Shaw is said to have written in 1907 to the London Times was quoted. I wish I could have found proof that I considered definitive that the quote was for real, but I did find it quoted by some well-respected writers. Attesting most of all to the likely authenticity of the quote, the Times itself published a letter in 1992 in which Shaw's letter was quoted. I presume that if the widely quoted letter was bogus, someone at the Times would have picked up on it. Here is what Shaw (it seems) wrote: “There is a busybody on your staff who devotes a lot of his time to chasing split infinitives. Every good literary craftsman splits his infinitives when the sense demands it. I call for the immediate dismissal of this pedant. It is of no consequence whether he decides to go quickly or quickly to go or to quickly go. The important thing is that he should go at once.” If the letter is not authentic, it should be. |
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| Thank you. This is excellent. nm | |
| Posted by: Quicheo 11:13 am EDT 04/03/21 | |
| In reply to: Various thoughts and quotes, including a quote from Shaw on split infinitives - AlanScott 08:03 am EDT 04/03/21 | |
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| See? | |
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| re: Various thoughts and quotes, including a quote from Shaw on split infinitives | |
| Posted by: pagates 08:32 am EDT 04/03/21 | |
| In reply to: Various thoughts and quotes, including a quote from Shaw on split infinitives - AlanScott 08:03 am EDT 04/03/21 | |
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| Amazing research! And outstanding information and analysis. Many thanks. The quotation is brilliant. I too hope it’s authentic. | |
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| re: Various thoughts and quotes, including a quote from Shaw on split infinitives | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:34 pm EDT 04/03/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Various thoughts and quotes, including a quote from Shaw on split infinitives - pagates 08:32 am EDT 04/03/21 | |
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| I also hope the quote is authentic, and it makes a lot of sense. The rule against split infinitives is not one that I personally subscribe to, but I will say that, to me, if split infinitives are acceptable some of the time "for the sense of the phrase," I don't understand why they aren't acceptable all of the time. That said, I suppose a split infinitive would look and sound clearly wrong if one were to add SEVERAL words in the split -- for example, if instead of "to ever let a woman in my life," Lerner had written "to ever, under any circumstances, let a woman in my life." :-) |
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| re: Various thoughts and quotes, including a quote from Shaw on split infinitives | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 03:51 am EDT 04/05/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Various thoughts and quotes, including a quote from Shaw on split infinitives - Michael_Portantiere 01:34 pm EDT 04/03/21 | |
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| Some experts who think the prohibition is silly and invalid might say something like this: There is no prohibition on using split infinitives but neither is it especially desirable. Sometimes splitting infinitives can lead to a sentence that lacks clarity or is clumsy (or both). Sometimes not splitting infinitives can lead to a sentence that lacks clarity or is clumsy (or both). There is always the option of recasting but sometimes that leads to something verbose and unnecessarily complicated. If the best solution is to split, then split, but usually it is not the best option. I just basically summarized what Fowler writes in his last section discussing split infinitives. At the link you can find the whole entry on split infinitives. There are those who say something like this: Avoid splitting infinitives because if you split there will be people who think you’re ignorant or careless. That seems a bit silly, but if, say, you’re writing a cover letter for a job or submitting an article to someone who doesn’t already know your writing, it’s probably good advice. I admit to not being sure why even some grammar experts who say that it is fine to split infinitives if that will give you the best sentence also say that as a general rule it is also best to avoid splitting. I think the reason may be because most of the time not splitting gives you a better sentence but I’m not 100-percent sure that’s the reason. I certainly understand the reasoning that you should avoid it because people will think you’re ignorant or careless. |
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| Link | Fowler on split infinitives |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 02:34 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - pagates 01:12 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| ***Another question that occurs to me in all this is what differences might there be between English (British) grammar in 1912/13 and 1955/56 and 2021. I trust the relevant rules and expectations for grammar would be those that were current in Edwardian England. I don't pretend to know what they were, but I venture that they have been changes.*** Excellent point! |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: pagates 10:31 am EDT 04/03/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - Michael_Portantiere 02:34 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| Thank you for your excellent original post! It has stimulated an outstanding, thoughtful, instructive, and uncommonly enjoyable thread about a musical I have long held as one of the giants of the century, if evidenced only by this conversation it prompted. I saw it first as the movie in ’64 (I grew up in the hinterlands), and not onstage until 2011 (in a respectable summer stock production). But it was in seeing the most recent LCT production - three times - that I was able fully to appreciate (or to fully appreciate) its richness and wit, its depth and its power, its highs and its lows. I loved all three viewings, but was most deeply moved by the two I saw with Benanti and Haden-Paton (with changes in supporting cast). It's great to be reminded of them all. I will say that while the movie has great charm, it never reached me the way the stage production did. Possibly because of my age difference on viewings, but I prefer to think that the “life” of a stage production offers emotional depth that a movie musical rarely - if ever - achieves. The fixedness and gloss of film is valuable in many ways, but live art engages the whole person more fully and complexly. I suppose that’s why it has devotees like us on this board and thread. | |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 08:54 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - AlanScott 07:54 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| I wish I still had my Fowler--I used to enjoy reading it just for the fun of it. Unfortunately I lost it somewhere in one of my too many changes of address. (My creditors were always just on the verge of catching uo with me! ; ) ) I'm not familiar with the Thurber parody, so I'll have to look it up--thanks for the tip that it exists! | |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: GrumpyMorningBoy 07:51 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - keikekaze 04:16 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| This message board is so freaking arcane sometimes and I totally love it. I'm so glad we're here instead of on Reddit. And that's a terrific rewrite, keikekaze. - GMB |
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| re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . | |
| Posted by: keikekaze 08:58 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: re: I think the ideal correction would be . . . - GrumpyMorningBoy 07:51 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| Thanks, GMB! | |
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