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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:43 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Michael_Portantiere 05:59 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| Yes, Higgins makes a bunch of grammatical errors, including at least a couple that you didn't mention, but what is it that bothers you about "The Scotch and the Irish leave you close to tears"? I think I know but perhaps I'm wrong. Also, what bothers you about "You should get a medal or be even made a knight"? Again, I have a guess as to what bothers you, but perhaps my guess is wrong. |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 10:54 am EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - AlanScott 04:43 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| I had never noticed this error myself, but someone else pointed out to me that one should refer to people who live in Scotland not as "the Scotch," but "the Scots." Scotch is correct as a different form of the word. Also, later in that song, Higgins refers to people who live in Arabia as "Arabians" rather than "Arabs." As for the other line, perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't believe it's correct to add a word in the middle of a two-word phrase such as "be made." I believe "or even be made a knight" would be correct. (But "even" doesn't scan with the melody, which is why I suggest "You should get a medal, or perhaps be made a knight"_ |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 02:23 am EDT 04/05/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Michael_Portantiere 10:54 am EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| Sorry that it has taken me a couple of days to get back to you. I got involved with responding to other posts, and putting this together took me some time, including cutting down a longer and more detailed draft. The person who told you that "one should refer to people who live in Scotland not as 'the Scotch,' but 'the Scots'" is correct if you're talking about what you probably should say in 2021. Calling inhabitants and natives of Scotland the Scotch is now considered offensive by some, especially in Scotland. But in 1912 and 1956, it was common to say the Scotch when referring to inhabitants of Scotland. If you go to Merriam-Webster.com and dictionary.com and look up Scotch, you will see even now such definitions as Scottish, Scots, the people of Scotland, and of Scottish origin. In the 1960s and even at least a couple of times in the 1970s (though less often), there were recordings issued of the Mendelssohn 3rd that called it the Scotch Symphony, rather than the Scottish Symphony. I didn’t ask about your objection on "Arabians learn Arabian" because it is incorrect. Since you volunteered an answer to a question I didn’t ask, I will mention that the reason is not the one you gave, which I guess is what the same person told you. Today you might be unlikely to use the term Arabians because now there is Saudi Arabia (which did not exist as a country with that name till 1932), and the people who live in Saudi Arabia are generally known as Saudis, but you very likely would have used Arabians as a general term in 1912. I’m no expert on this but I think Arabians is, even now, a valid if rarely used word since Arabia is still a name used (though perhaps not often) for a geographic area that includes but is not limited to Saudi Arabia. So you might use the word if you wanted to refer to all the inhabitants of that large geographic area. You could also call them Arabs, but that term encompasses more than just the inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula. And I think Arabs would not necessarily be used to refer to all of the inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula. If I’m wrong about that, I hope someone will correct me. The problem with "Arabians learn Arabian" is that there is no language called Arabian. The language is Arabic, which Higgins surely would have known. As for “You should get a medal or be even made a knight,“ I believe that is correct. To change it to “even be made a knight“ would be incorrect. I quote Bryan A. Garner from the third edition of his Modern American Usage: "Many writers fall into awkward, unidiomatic sentences when they misguidedly avoid splitting up verb phrases. Although most authorities squarely say that the best place for the adverb is in the midst of the verb phrase, many writers nevertheless harbor a misplaced aversion, probably because they confuse a split verb phrase with the split infinitive." The authority he specifically cites is (no surprise) W. H. Fowler. Fowler is quite confusing discussing this. If I hadn’t first read Garner, I might not have been sure what Fowler was saying. I am linking an article about this grammatical question. The relevant item there is 4. |
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| Link | Where do adverbs go? |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:37 am EDT 04/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - AlanScott 02:23 am EDT 04/05/21 | |
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| Thanks for all this research for the purposes of clarification. Yes, I forgot to note that the name of the language is "Arabic" not "Arabian." Ironic that the error I failed to mention in that section of the lyric is the most indisputable error :-) In re "or be even made a knight," I don't know what to say. That still sounds and looks wrong to me, far less preferable to "or even be made knight." And regardless of what Garner wrote or what Fowler believes, I don't think "or even be made knight" sounds in the least awkward or unidiomatic. I'm glad my original post has led to such detailed discussion, because I think it's good for us all to be reminded that not everything is cut and dried when it comes to "rules" of grammar and usage. |
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| re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 09:00 am EDT 04/05/21 | |
| In reply to: re: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - AlanScott 02:23 am EDT 04/05/21 | |
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| My cousin (by marriage), Cheryl, was born in the U.S. but her parents and older sisters are from Lebanon. Lebanon is a country in Western Asia, part of the Middle East, and is located in the Arabian hinterland. I assume the language her family and she have spoken in my presence is Arabic, although I've never actually asked her. Her parents' side of her family is Roman Catholic. Regarding ancestry, I have heard her refer to herself and her sisters as Lebanese or Asian-American. I don't believe she considers any member of her family to be an Arab. | |
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