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| re: But was Higgins a grammarian? | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 07:11 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
| In reply to: But was Higgins a grammarian? - stevemr 06:18 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| I think nowhere in Pygmalion is it said that he is a grammarian, but in "You Did It," Higgins quotes Zoltan Karpathy saying, "And although she may have studied with an expert dialectician and grammarian." Obviously that is there just for the rhyme, but Higgins doesn’t then say, "And the fool thinks I’m a grammarian!" Besides, if Higgins teaches people to speak properly — Eliza is far from the first person he has taught — then presumably he knows the rules of grammar and usage quite well. Some of the points that have been raised are questions of usage, not grammar. |
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| Quoting a section of Pygmalion about grammar | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:05 am EDT 04/05/21 | |
| In reply to: re: But was Higgins a grammarian? - AlanScott 07:11 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| Liza: I got my feelings same as anyone else. Higgins [to Pickering, reflectively]: You see the difficulty? Pickering: Eh? What difficulty? Higgins: To get her to talk grammar. The mere pronunciation is easy enough. Liza: I don’t want to talk grammar. I want to talk like a lady. |
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| re: Quoting a section of Pygmalion about grammar | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:59 am EDT 04/06/21 | |
| In reply to: Quoting a section of Pygmalion about grammar - AlanScott 04:05 am EDT 04/05/21 | |
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| Ah yes. Presumably, Shaw was being pointedly ironic in having Higgins make a huge grammatical error (or would it be classified as an error of usage?) in discussing the importance of teaching Eliza to speak in a grammatically correct fashion. At least, I HOPE he was being ironic... |
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| He’s actually a phonologist, which is a branch of linguistics | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 01:13 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: But was Higgins a grammarian? - AlanScott 07:11 pm EDT 04/01/21 | |
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| Starting with GBS himself, Higgins is called a professor of phonetics. But that’s not strictly right. His field is linguistics, his specialty phonology. This was a field that was really taking off in the Victorian-Edwardian era; Shaw has Higgins declare he wrote HIGGINS’ UNIVERSAL ALPHABET, a method of recording what was known as “visible speech.” In fact, at the time of PYGMALION’s debut, the standard International Phonetic Alphabet had not yet been created (though I think they were working on it). (Ridiculous digression: Warner hired Peter Ladefoged, professor of linguistics at UCLA as technical advisor to the film. That’s his handwriting and his personal version of Higgins’ alphabet in Rex’s notebooks.) But, as stated above, a man so extensively educated would be quite familiar with grammar and proper usage of speech, though he would not be considered a grammarian. I think Lerner was just thrilled at something reasonably close to his subject matter that rhymed with Hungarian! Michael, that’s a great piece you wrote. I’m still going to cherish the brilliance (especially preserving so many OBC portrayals) and wave away the messy bits. Laura |
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| re: He’s actually a phonologist, which is a branch of linguistics | |
| Posted by: AlanScott 04:47 am EDT 04/05/21 | |
| In reply to: He’s actually a phonologist, which is a branch of linguistics - showtunetrivia 01:13 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| I may very well be wrong but I have never thought that the book Higgins’s Universal Alphabet was primarily concerned with putting forth a method of recording "visible speech." (I just noticed that Shaw has it as Higgins’s. Did Lerner decide that Shaw was wrong when he changed it to Higgins’? Or was it changed by the person who copy-edited or proofread the published script?) I’m glad that you brought this up as you led me to go searching for more info. Higgins says to Pickering just before Eliza enters in Act II that they will take her down first in Bell’s visible speech and then in Broad Romic. Henry Sweet, the inspiration for Higgins (for those who may not know or may have forgotten), invented the latter in the 1870s while Bell’s visible speech was invented in the 1860s. Broad Romic was Sweet’s attempt to build upon and improve Melville Bell’s method of notating pronunciations. (I imagine you know all that. I hope that I’m understanding it correctly.) If Higgins’s Universal Alphabet was meant to be understood as a method of recording speech, wouldn’t Higgins say that they will take her down in that? |
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| re: He’s actually a phonologist, which is a branch of linguistics | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:24 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: He’s actually a phonologist, which is a branch of linguistics - showtunetrivia 01:13 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| In fact, at the time of PYGMALION’s debut, the standard International Phonetic Alphabet had not yet been created (though I think they were working on it). There was a marvelous production of My Fair Lady in Boston a few years ago (I subbed in as music director for a week of it), and the set design included panels that had International Phonetic Alphabet symbols all over them. (Never mind whether that was anachronistic or not, lol.) I remarked that in this production, you got your IPA during the show, instead of waiting to go out for one afterwards. :-) |
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| re: He’s actually a phonologist, which is a branch of linguistics | |
| Posted by: showtunetrivia 10:15 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: re: He’s actually a phonologist, which is a branch of linguistics - Chromolume 09:24 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| What a fantastic design! Love it! Love the other IPAs, too. My spouse is less fond of the hoppy ones, preferring dark, malty ales. Laura |
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| re: He’s actually a phonologist, which is a branch of linguistics | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 06:30 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
| In reply to: He’s actually a phonologist, which is a branch of linguistics - showtunetrivia 01:13 pm EDT 04/02/21 | |
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| ***Michael, that’s a great piece you wrote. I’m still going to cherish the brilliance (especially preserving so many OBC portrayals) and wave away the messy bits.*** Thanks so much. I, too, am going to continue to cherish the brilliance, which is considerable. I just wish I could wave away the messy bits as easily as you and other some others are able to do so. |
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