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| Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Last Edit: StanS 09:21 pm EDT 04/05/21 | |
| Posted by: StanS 09:18 pm EDT 04/05/21 | |
| In reply to: The messy brilliance of the MY FAIR LADY film (VERY LONG!) - Michael_Portantiere 05:59 pm EDT 03/31/21 | |
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| Poetic license: "the freedom to depart from the facts of a matter or from the conventional rules of language when speaking or writing in order to create an effect." This has come up many times on this site. Not only do these grammatical errors not bother me, I actually enjoy them for their very faults. It's almost as if Higgins is making them just to show he can, correctness be damned. It almost becomes part of the arrogance of his character. Has anybody found any "mistakes" in Higgins' dialogue? No, it's just in the songs, where heightened emotion particularly allows license. foreign/aren': When I first heard that I laughed. Why? Because it seemed to me that Higgins was winking at us ("I'll get this to rhyme come hell or high water"). It meets the basic requirement of any great rhyme: it gives pleasure. "I'd be equally as willing for a dentist to be drilling than to ever let a woman in my life": I'm sorry, but that is just a f***ing great line, period. It rolls off the tongue so deliciously that if someone ever replaced it with a grammatically "corrected" version, I would ... (propriety forbids me). My Fair Lady has one of the greatest set of lyrics in musical comedy history, if not the greatest, grammatical "mistakes" and all. |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:13 am EDT 04/06/21 | |
| In reply to: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - StanS 09:18 pm EDT 04/05/21 | |
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| ***"I'd be equally as willing for a dentist to be drilling than to ever let a woman in my life": I'm sorry, but that is just a f***ing great line, period. It rolls off the tongue so deliciously that if someone ever replaced it with a grammatically "corrected" version, I would ... (propriety forbids me).***** In my opinion, the point is that it was Lerner's job as a Broadway lyricist, working at what is supposed to be the highest level of his craft, to come up with a lyric that would be witty, would roll off the tongue deliciously, and would ALSO be grammatically correct. I'm not sure why you put the word "corrected" in quotes, seeing how the line you focused on is unquestionably incorrect from a grammatical standpoint, and in fact contains at least two errors that are not debatable. ***My Fair Lady has one of the greatest set of lyrics in musical comedy history, if not the greatest, grammatical "mistakes" and all.*** Agreed, 100 percent. But I wonder why it angers you so much when the mistakes are pointed out. And again, you should have not put quotes around the word "mistakes," as there are several inarguable mistakes in the lyrics. |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: StanS 11:53 am EDT 04/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - Michael_Portantiere 01:13 am EDT 04/06/21 | |
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| I put "corrected" and "mistakes" in quotes, because they are mistakes only from the point of view of grammatical correctness. I The line(s) in question are perfect from the point of view that matters: giving delight to the listener. When a line does that, most listeners who are not hung up on pedantic correctness will simply not notice the errors. When I first heard that line I didn't notice anything wrong with it at all, and I'm a native English speaker who knows the grammatic rules. Yes, when you point it out, then I notice it, but it's still of no real importance. I don't find it detracts from the brilliance of the line at all. I'm not angry that the mistakes are pointed out. It can be fun to point out these mistakes. But it's like pointing out the famous shot in Hitchcock's "North by Northwest": just before Eva Marie Saint shoots Cary Grant in a crowded cafeteria at Mount Rushmore, you can see someone holding his hands to his ears, as if he knew the shot was coming. It's a mistake. It's fun to know about it. Does it detract from the audience's enjoyment of the scene or the greatness of the movie? Not one whit. Yes, by all means, point out all the mistakes. It's interesting to know them. I only get angry when these types of mistakes are treated as an actual weakness, to say that Lerner wasn't doing his job. He did his job brilliantly. You agree that MFL is one of the greatest sets of lyrics. My point is that "I'd be equally as willing ..." is part of the reason for that greatness, not an exception to it. |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:00 pm EDT 04/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - StanS 11:53 am EDT 04/06/21 | |
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| "Yes, by all means, point out all the mistakes. It's interesting to know them. I only get angry when these types of mistakes are treated as an actual weakness, to say that Lerner wasn't doing his job. He did his job brilliantly. You agree that MFL is one of the greatest sets of lyrics. My point is that "I'd be equally as willing ..." is part of the reason for that greatness, not an exception to it." I don't understand and/or don't agree with your logic here. Lerner did his job brilliantly in the bulk of his writing for the show but NOT in those several sections when he put grammatical errors in the mouth of a character who, in my opinion, should speak with perfect grammar (and this also applies to the grammatical errors that Shaw wrote for Higgins in PYGMALION). The grammatical errors committed by Higgins in the songs of MY FAIR LADY are indeed an "actual weakness" in Lerner's work, in my opinion. For example, the overall concept and content of the line "I'd be equally as willing...." is indeed great, but the line would be far greater if the lyricist had tweaked it to make it grammatically correct. And you know what, during the course of this discussion over the past several days, I think I've pretty much fixed it with just some small modifications: "I would equally be willing for a dentist to be drilling as to ever let a woman in my life." Maybe that's not 100 percent perfect, and "I would be equally willing" arguably sounds better, but the version above scans with the music, and it's a lot closer to grammatical correctness than the line that Lerner settled for. |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Last Edit: StanS 05:40 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| Posted by: StanS 05:33 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - Michael_Portantiere 11:00 pm EDT 04/06/21 | |
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| I've been away so this might be too late to be seen, but ... My basic point which you either miss or don't agree with is that poetic license allows even a noted professor of speech to make grammatical mistakes IN A LYRIC (not dialogue) as long as the line makes the effect it's supposed to make. Grammar just doesn't matter. Sorry, but your version of the line is not as good as Lerner's. "I'd be equally as willing" just sounds better than "I would equally be willing" and "than" makes a better effect than "as". I don't give a rat's ass that yours is more grammatically correct. My guess is that Lerner probably thought of your version and other more correct versions, but just knew his was better. For lyrics, effect trumps correctness, even for professors of speech. |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:09 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - StanS 05:33 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
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| ***My basic point which you either miss or don't agree with is that poetic license allows even a noted professor of speech to make grammatical mistakes IN A LYRIC (not dialogue) as long as the line makes the effect it's supposed to make. Grammar just doesn't matter.*** Yes, I do disagree strongly with that point, and I can't imagine why you would feel that grammatical errors would be acceptable in a lyric due to "poetic license," but not in dialogue. I can't wrap my head around that distinction -- and I have never known anyone but you try to make it. ***Sorry, but your version of the line is not as good as Lerner's. "I'd be equally as willing" just sounds better than "I would equally be willing" and "than" makes a better effect than "as". I don't give a rat's ass that yours is more grammatically correct. My guess is that Lerner probably thought of your version and other more correct versions, but just knew his was better.**** I'm pretty sure Lerner's version "sounds better" to you than mine because you've gotten used to it over a period of (I'm guessing) several decades. At any rate, when you start to make statements like "'than' makes a better effect than 'as,'" I know there's no point in continuing this discussion. As to your "rat's ass"phrasing, I'll restrain myself and simply quote Auntie Mame: "How vivid......" |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: StanS 11:45 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - Michael_Portantiere 12:09 am EDT 04/11/21 | |
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| You're absolutely right: there's no point continuing. | |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 01:16 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - StanS 11:45 pm EDT 04/11/21 | |
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| Right, no point continuing to argue with anyone who feels that "equally.....than," which is glaringly incorrect, "makes a better effect" than "equally.....as," which is correct. | |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: StanS 02:43 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - Michael_Portantiere 01:16 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Right, no point arguing with anyone who feels that grammatical correctness is necessary for effect. Are we in a battle to see who gets the last word before this thread goes off the board? |
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| I'll take the last word | |
| Posted by: Ann 03:01 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - StanS 02:43 pm EDT 04/12/21 | |
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| Please. | |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 12:00 pm EDT 04/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - StanS 11:53 am EDT 04/06/21 | |
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| I'm reminded of Ruth Sherwood's "One Hundred Easy Ways to Lose a Man". When her beau tells her "You're the one to who I give my heart" she responds "I'm afraid you've made a grammatical error. It's not 'to who I give my heart,' it's 'to whom I give my heart.' You see, with the use of the preposition 'to', 'who' becomes the indirect object, making the use of the word 'whom' imperative, which I can easily show you by drawing a simple chart." Ruth has missed the point of the moment. I feel, Michael, that you have, as well. |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 11:14 pm EDT 04/06/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - Billhaven 12:00 pm EDT 04/06/21 | |
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| Of course, I don't feel I've "missed the point" at all. As I stated in my very first post on this matter, I think it's instructive and facinating to acknowledge and comment on flaws in great works of art, just as it's instructive and interesting to acknowledge and comment on moments of brilliance in works that most people would consider to be......less than great. And when people are unable or unwilling to do this, I would say that shows a lack of critical thinking on their part. A new thought: If anyone today were to write lyrics for a new musical with one or more characters who should be expected to speak with perfect grammar, and if those lyrics contained not one, not two, not three, but multiple grammatical errors, I expect that lyricist would be excoriated by many of you who either don't acknowledge or choose to disregard the errors in the lyrics of MY FAIR LADY simply because you're so familiar with those songs and probably didn't notice the errors until they were pointed out to you. |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: Billhaven 10:53 am EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - Michael_Portantiere 11:14 pm EDT 04/06/21 | |
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| There haven't been many lyricists in the past 40 years (outside of Sondheim and Lin-Manuel Miranda) who have delighted me as much as Alan J. Lerner. I look at Miranda's verbal brilliance and creativity first, I don't care if the rhymes aren't perfect (neither does he) or the grammar is not impeccable. These are not legal briefs or academic exercises. They are artistic expressions that are crafted like poetry. In any event, I wouldn't "excoriate" improper usage. I might make a note of it and question it but I would look at the piece in its entirety. | |
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| re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:57 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Higgins' grammatical "mistakes" - Billhaven 10:53 am EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Of course, the fact that the rhymes aren't perfect and the grammar is not impeccable in Lin-Manuel Miranda's lyrics has nothing to do with discussion of Lerner's lyrics for MY FAIR LADY, as the style and intent of those two sets of lyrics is completely different according to the characters and the styles of the musicals in question. | |
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