Threaded Order Chronological Order
| Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: StageLover 11:59 am EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| This scathing piece in today's Hollywood Reporter had me wondering... | |
| Link | https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/features/everyone-just-knows-hes-an-absolute-monster-scott-rudins-ex-staffers-speak-out-on-abusive-behavior |
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| PROSECUTED seems more fitting and deserving! | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 07:36 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - StageLover 11:59 am EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| because Mr. Rudin, like so many other rich white people, seems to be above the law, time after time after time after time after ... | |
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| re: PROSECUTED seems more fitting and deserving! | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 12:40 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: PROSECUTED seems more fitting and deserving! - manchurch03104 07:36 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Not since Don Simpson (the deceased former partner of Jerry Bruckheimer) has anyone had the reputation of being as vile as Scott Rudin. There are MANY horrible executives in "The Biz", but Rudin now wears the crown. | |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 08:26 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - StageLover 11:59 am EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Just my $.02 - I wish we would stop with this whole "cancel" thing. | |
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| I prefer the term from "The Magnificent Ambersons" of "getting his comeuppance" | |
| Posted by: PlayWiz 01:25 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Chromolume 08:26 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| which happens to the spoiled brat George in the film. | |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 12:28 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Chromolume 08:26 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| I myself has often objected to "canceling," as for example in the cases of Dr. Seuss and J.K. Rowling. But it depends on the context, and also, I think that word is very amorphous. In this case, if canceling the person in question means embarrassing him to the point where he will never again be able to work in an office environment with other people, thereby preventing him from terrorizing his staff on a regular basis and sometimes physically attacking them by, for example, smashing a computer monitor on someone's hand, thus injuring them so severely that they require immediate medical attention......well, maybe that kind of "cancellation" is not such a bad thing. |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:56 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Michael_Portantiere 12:28 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| I think you missed my point (for which I apologize for not being clearer). But since you yourself put the word "canceling" in scare quotes, you're actually making my point, lol. It's the now rampant politicization and misuse of the term that I'm complaining about. No one is "cancelling" anyone. Or, at least, we used to have more accurate, less hot-button terms for it. I just don't want to see that phrase used anymore,. It has already outstayed its welcome, and it has become essentially meaningless in its over-ubiquitous use. In other words, let's please cancel "cancel" and be done with it. ;-) |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 06:58 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Chromolume 10:56 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| ***It's the now rampant politicization and misuse of the term that I'm complaining about. No one is "cancelling" anyone. Or, at least, we used to have more accurate, less hot-button terms for it. I just don't want to see that phrase used anymore,. It has already outstayed its welcome, and it has become essentially meaningless in its over-ubiquitous use. In other words, let's please cancel "cancel" and be done with it. ;-)*** I completely agree, and that's part of what I meant when I commented that the words "cancel" and "canceling" are so amorphous. |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:54 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Chromolume 10:56 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| And even within the common usage of the word cancelled, Dr. Seuss has not been cancelled - that's just right-wing propaganda nonsense. Rowling's situation is more complicated, as she has lost a lot of fans and the Harry Potter IP has been somewhat damaged by her transphobia, but again, the outcry that she's been cancelled is simply a distraction from the racist right and its supporters to drum up anti-left hysteria. Don't give them the clicks and don't repeat their lies. |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 12:18 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Singapore/Fling 11:54 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| And even within the common usage of the word cancelled, Dr. Seuss has not been cancelled - that's just right-wing propaganda nonsense. Right. Exactly my point, lol. |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 10:58 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Chromolume 08:26 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Agreed, it's a very simplistic way of approaching this situation, and it also presents the illusion that if we simply turn our backs on Rudin, that the problem of exploitation and abuse in our industry just goes away with a snap. | |
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| Scott Rudin should be ashamed of his behavior | |
| Posted by: FinalPerformance 01:54 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Singapore/Fling 10:58 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Not surprised Rudin got away with this outrageous behavior and glad it is now public knowledge. | |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 08:48 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Chromolume 08:26 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| I think I know the answer but do you mean the use of the term or something more? Maybe it would be better to spend $.04. :-) | |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 09:28 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - ryhog 08:48 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| I meant the use of the term. Thanks. :-) | |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:43 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - Chromolume 09:28 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| We have to recognize that "cancel culture" is among the buzz words of the radical (racist) right. Although I think most people on this board are using it more innocently, I think it is a term best avoided altogether. | |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 02:49 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - ryhog 11:43 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Agreed. It's taken the place of "fake news," which was also co-opted by the Right (and most importantly, the twice-impeached guy who used to live at 1600) as something very different than was originally meant. | |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 02:04 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - StageLover 11:59 am EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Another issue here that also ties in with the abuse is that these jobs in the Rudin office pay the absolutely minimum amount of money for a (more than) full time job in New York. Unless things have changed lately, there's also no benefits for their employees. That is absolutely criminal. Every one of these people needs a six figure salary and a diamond platinum benefit package. With Rudin's business success, there's no excuse for any of that. Along with all the rest of it. |
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| re: Sadly, Scott Rudin is hardly alone in the category of "deplorable theatre producers to work for".... | |
| Posted by: bway1430 04:38 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - JereNYC 02:04 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| I worked at a junior level for two London-based producer's offices (one of them a major player) and was horrified at the treatment/hostile work environment in both circumstances. The pay is generally awful, the hours very long and an air of "treat people as cruelly as you care to....if they don't like it, they know where the door is" made getting up to go to work every day something to dread. It made "The Devil Wears Prada" look like a cakewalk. I segued into that career from having been a professional actor (with West End credits) and having worked state-side with a top regional theatre (which was a dream). It was emotionally draining and put me off ever working in the industry again in any way, shape or form (and I have had opportunities). I'll stick to being a patron and leave the rest to those who have the skin of a rhino. I hope Rudin and his like get what they deserve. Nobody should get away with that level of nastiness. |
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| Everything you say is pretty much true, BUT..... | |
| Posted by: Jax 11:51 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Sadly, Scott Rudin is hardly alone in the category of "deplorable theatre producers to work for".... - bway1430 04:38 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| I think your post illustrates why the Rudins, Weinsteins, and (better mannered) Wintours rule the roost. You said you had a dream experience at a regional theatre. Sure, low stakes, non-profit, out of town. But where does "everyone" want to go? Broadway. So the competition on Broadway is brutal. Same thing in Hollywood or publishing. Everybody wants those jobs, so it's not a surprise that only the strong (nasty) survive. It's always been a bit of a truism that the boss, in a commercial marketplace, is a bit of a beast. That's how he/she got there. You see it in old movies and books: All About Eve, The Bad and the Beautiful and even The Carpetbaggers all tell us how a villainous person rose to the top. I'm in no way defending Rudin. Just saying this is the way things are...and have been for a long time. Can it change? Only if everyone decides to work in regional theatre. Ambition is a human trait. |
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| re: Everything you say is pretty much true, BUT..... | |
| Last Edit: bway1430 01:10 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| Posted by: bway1430 01:08 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: Everything you say is pretty much true, BUT..... - Jax 11:51 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| It is as prevelant onstage as it is offstage. I could tell you horror stories of verbal abuse, sexual harrassment and body-shaming during my years as a performer. But you learn from a very young age to take it in stride because you know there are thousands of others who would trade places with you in a second. I think we can all agree that it is a pretty f'd up state of affairs and a horrible thing to go along with but sadly, it was just the way the biz is/was in my experience. However, I didn't expect as much of a poisonous atmosphere in the creative offices. That did surprise me and saddened me because it was just so not necessary. As bad as the bosses could be, the co-workers/fellow underlings were even worse. I knew that to be successful I would have to become as ruthless and nasty as one of them and that is the last thing I would ever allow so I got the hell out. Never again. I hope, if the allegations are true, that Rudin gets his just desserts and that others in the field take the hint. |
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| re: Everything you say is pretty much true, BUT..... | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:41 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: Everything you say is pretty much true, BUT..... - Jax 11:51 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| It can change if the culture changes and leads to changes in our laws. Not everyone's ambition is chilled by an ogre, because not every boss or work environment is toxic, On Broadway or anywhere else. But what I think we know about Rudin (unless someone knows something I don't) is that his is learned behavior and he can control it (because he does when he knows he needs to). He does not throw things at Bob Wankel, or Hugh Jackman, or Aaron Sorkin, etc etc etc. His behavior needs mega doses of therapy, but it also needs regulation. There needs to be a price, and a mechanism for exacting that price, because that's what he (and I am using him only as a placeholder) understands. Who is going to make this happen? Ironically, one person who could is seemingly even worse himself. | |
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| re: Everything you say is pretty much true, BUT..... | |
| Posted by: pecansforall 08:50 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Everything you say is pretty much true, BUT..... - ryhog 12:41 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| He does not throw things at Bob Wankel, or Hugh Jackman, or Aaron Sorkin, etc etc etc. He's probably not gonna throw things at those who have some type of "value" to him. He probably considers anyone else as superfluous, dispensable, and not worthy of his respect or attention. I actually knew someone who behaved a lot like Rudin who passed away in his mid-forties. Heart attack. The body can't sustain production of this type of behavior for too long. It's not healthy. |
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| re: Everything you say is pretty much true, BUT..... | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:25 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Everything you say is pretty much true, BUT..... - ryhog 12:41 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| This references another post you made about our industry, but one of the problems is that there isn't really an HR department at most theaters and production companies. I've seen people in charge do and say things that would get them fired, or at least written up, if there was a functional HR department, but we don't have those. It also doesn't help that in many of these cases, the person doing the abuse is also the person who writes the checks. At the end of the day, they have the power and no one to tell them not to use it. | |
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| So employers are supposed to pay fair wages and offer benefits? Ridiculous! | |
| Last Edit: Singapore/Fling 03:02 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:00 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - JereNYC 02:04 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Rudin doesn't even pay his business partners, why would we expect him to pay his employees? And benefits? What a pipe dream! And let's not even get into the rampant abuse of New York's overtime policies in our industry. This is the kind of disgusting behavior that is the backbone of NYC theater, and it's the reason many of us aren't excited about returning to work for a system that doesn't treat us like human beings and exploits our love of the art for the producers' monetary gain. |
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| It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: dramedy 12:22 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - StageLover 11:59 am EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Which seems to be the downfall of spacey, Weinstein and hammer. I can’t think of any that are just work abuse screaming and throwing stuff that were brought down. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: KingSpeed 09:49 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It isn’t sexual based - dramedy 12:22 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Abuse is abuse. Sexual, Physical, Verbal, Emotional. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:45 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - KingSpeed 09:49 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| On one level, yes, but not all forms of abuse are crimes (and all crimes are not equal). I think there is a danger in creating an equivalency. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 07:38 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 11:45 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| where there is a clear and distinct pattern of abuse, the behavior rises to criminality. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 10:11 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - manchurch03104 07:38 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| I don't necessarily disagree, but for something to "rise to criminality" we have to have a legislature pass a law defining it and making it a crime. A law criminalizing "a clear and distinct pattern of abuse," without more, would be void for vagueness and thus a denial of due process. And even as a crime, as I said, their are gradations of heinousness. Sexual abuse>physical abuse>emotional abuse>verbal abuse, generally speaking. What we need are laws that very clearly set the boundaries. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:19 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 10:11 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Verbal abuse *is* generally speaking emotional abuse, and I would equate being yelled at in front of your colleagues as no less violent than being physically harmed in front of your colleagues, even if the scars aren't visible. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 06:33 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - Singapore/Fling 03:19 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| I would say we must (and the law does) distinguish between offenses based on nuanced gradations. I think it is dangerous to lump everything in one pot and treat it as equally offensive. We don't punish based on "generally speaking," and we shouldn't. It's a tricky and not simple subject. There are many factors that go into these definitions and that result in different degrees of culpability. What was the intent? What was the circumstance? What was the relationship? What were the words? The list goes on. There is verbal abuse that, while not something to praise, does not rise to the level of actionable conduct. (E.g., I yelled at an umpire who makes a bad call. He heard me.) You think yelling at a person in front of colleagues because they lost some important document is worse than yelling in private about something truly humiliating that leaves the person devastated (and yes scarred)? My point is that we practice injustice when we punish without asking a lot of questions, and also without providing clear lines distinguishing between things. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:37 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 06:33 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Yelling is yelling. After working at a theater where the person in charge routinely yelled at everyone, I lost my ability to excuse or parse that abuse as being less than other forms of abuse. Both actions that you describe are about humiliating someone else, and the public nature of yelling at someone in an office is part of that humiliation. There is no call for yelling *at someone* in an office, even if an important document has been lost (I'm trying to make a distinction here for a person exclaiming loudly in frustration, versus someone yelling directly at an employee), as that creates a toxic workplace that operates on fear and degradation. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 05:07 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - Singapore/Fling 03:37 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I think we are talking about different things (both nonetheless bad). I think there are actions that create a toxic workplace and we have (and should have more and better) laws and sanctions addressing these things. But yelling at someone because they lost a document is not a crime, and I don't think we want for it to be equated with throwing office equipment at people (or grabbing someone's breasts or shooting them etc etc ) in the eyes of the law. When we equate, we diminish the severity of the more egregious behavior, and that's bad. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 09:01 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 05:07 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| What are you imagining the person is yelling at the other person when the document gets lost? | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:02 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - Singapore/Fling 09:01 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I wasn't imagining. It actually happened. Mostly it was in the nature of a generalized freakout about the consequences of not having a signed document that was needed that day. [It was found, later that day, accidentally attached to the back of something else by a paper clip so there is a happily ever after aspect to this.] I am not sure why you asked. | |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:22 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - ryhog 11:02 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I asked to see if we could role play and get deeper into the specifics of what's being said and how it's being directed at the person. And then also, the follow-up question would be if this was a one-time situation, followed by a genuine apology and change in behavior, or if this kind of yelling happened on a weekly basis. In the situation that I've been in, the yelling was constant and frequent and part of a larger set of tools that the person in charge used to humiliate the staff and artists who worked at the theater. I do think that those specifics can help us parse where we want to draw the boundaries on acceptable and unacceptable. |
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| re: It isn’t sexual based | |
| Last Edit: ryhog 05:11 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:56 pm EDT 04/10/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It isn’t sexual based - Singapore/Fling 11:22 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I thought I had responded on this before. I am not really into role play. I don't think the situation I described was Rudin-esque. It was not one time but it was also not weekly. I think it was mostly a result of freaking out about the consequences. I think the "larger set of tools" can be a useful perspective. I want to add a few more things that are worth saying. People are talking about crimes but not everything illegal is a crime. In New York, harassment is illegal even if it is not pervasive. (The only defense available to the employer (other than denial obviously) is that the complained about action(s) were "petty slights or trivial inconveniences.”) Another interesting aspect of the current law is that confidentiality agreements do not apply to communications with an attorney or any governmental entity that has jurisdiction, and it is the employee's choice if any settlement is confidential. There's more of course, but there is zero doubt that Rudin's conduct would be proscribed and actionable. Oh and an employee can be awarded punitive damages and attorney's fees. | |
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| Joss Whedon... | |
| Last Edit: MockingbirdGirl 02:38 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| Posted by: MockingbirdGirl 02:32 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It isn’t sexual based - dramedy 12:22 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| ... has mostly been brought down due to bullying, not sexual impropriety. I don't imagine he'll ever be put in charge of a set again. |
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| Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 01:23 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It isn’t sexual based - dramedy 12:22 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| His bullying has been well chronicled, and this report takes it a step further. Will anyone care? Maybe not - as you say, this isn't sexual abuse, which seems to be the only one people care about - but bullying is endemic to the entertainment industry (including NYC theater), and there are people who are hopeful that we can actually change the culture to be less toxic. We'll see what happens... | |
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| re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse | |
| Posted by: Lillebear 05:16 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - Singapore/Fling 01:23 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| I do hope this gets some traction. Bullying is, indeed, endemic to the entertainment industry. I witnessed a very well known Broadway director screaming at multiple people on the Creative team, always men. I asked around and found that this person would never be abusive to leading or featured actors, only to "lesser" creatives - and I chose the word "lesser" carefully - and people in the ensemble. The director's reputation around NYC was as a "screamer." I can't say who the director is as they have been known to bad-mouth and lie about people they think have crossed them and have tried to "blacklist" them from working in NYC. Not worth the risk. Just after witnessing this, I heard a wonderful phrase from a Grip on a film: "being an insufferable megalomanic is by no ways a prerequisite to making great films." |
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| re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse | |
| Last Edit: JereNYC 11:12 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 11:08 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - Lillebear 05:16 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| And this right here is part of the ongoing issue. This person is terrified to post the name of an abusive person in their professional life EVEN ON AN ANONYMOUS FORUM for fear of retaliation. We have a culture that excuses horrific behavior if the abuser is talented enough and it isn't new and it has to stop. We still hear stories about Jerome Robbins that cuddle the blood...but he was a genius, so it's all okay. Arthur Laurents seems to have gotten a pass for all kinds of abusive behavior. None of this is okay and we, as a culture, need to not protect abusers just because they're talented. I don't care if this director referenced here has 10 Tonys and is in line to have a theatre named after him/her, this behavior needs to stop and, if it doesn't, this person's career needs to end. There are a lot of talented people out there who aren't abusive and, if we clear out some of these garbage humans, maybe we can make room for some of them. But how do we do that if people are terrified of retaliation if they name names? |
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| Who? | |
| Posted by: reed23 06:17 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - JereNYC 11:08 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| So we have "a culture that excuses horrific behavior" and "it has to stop." "This behavior needs to stop or this person's career needs to end." So who is going to stop what? 1) Stop the culture from excusing, or 2) Stop the horrific behavior? Who is in charge of putting the accused parties on trial, amassing and evaluating the evidence, in what forum, and under what authority, using what powers to "end" someone's career? Stories about Jerome Robbins? I've heard generalities, but no specific stories. I'm not saying there weren't any; I just don't know what they are. Likewise Arthur Laurents. I worked (several times) with one of the most famous Broadway composers, whose personal abusiveness I experienced firsthand. None of it was actionable, as extremely unpleasant as it was. He's dead now, so no amorphous Someone or Committee can end his career, nor did I ever detect anything actionable, either legally, or in violation of any union (not that any had control over his career or work habits or social relations.) I worked with one of the most manipulative, emotionally abusive Broadway dance captains I could imagine – she worked and wreaked havoc upon people's lives for decades. She answered to no one, except maybe the aging choreographer, who was offsite almost throughout. The most successful choreographer of our current time has an abusive side about which I heard first hand. So – yeah, some highest-level people in our biz (and in any biz) are eligible for the term "abusive." I get it, I've heard it, I've seen it. Two other considerations: It isn't just power-people. A number of stars in various media (inc. theatre) are nightmare-abusive, to fellow cast, crew, directors and higher-ups. Some of those careers have suffered, or met their just desserts. A majority, not in the slightest. Who's going to adjudicate those cases? And regarding the pool of "talented people" who aren't "garbage human beings" (a phrase I've never applied to anyone, since everyone has a backstory and a humanity, even those deemed unpleasant – you know, WICKED): When it costs 7-8 digits to put up a Broadway show, the tower of investor names above the title aren't going to take a time-out to mull over whether they want the one with 10 Tonys or the one someone-or-other said was nice. No lead producer(s) would even gain access to those names and their 8-digit millions in the first place without pre-packaging the one with 10 Tonys. Hopefully, abusive people will increasingly be marginalized, with new awareness and responsibility on all the many sides. But I wouldn't count on it, most certainly not in the next 5-10 years, as all the good intentions and Broadway social justice warriors of all stripes bump into this one little powerful guy whose temporary absence has allowed them to flower in the first place: a little guy named Ticket Sales. |
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| re: Who? | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 09:55 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: Who? - reed23 06:17 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| "Two other considerations: It isn't just power-people. A number of stars in various media (inc. theatre) are nightmare-abusive, to fellow cast, crew, directors and higher-ups. " But I would say that, in most cases, any stars who act that way are -- or, at least perceive themselves to be -- power-people themselves. |
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| re: Who? | |
| Posted by: ryhog 11:39 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Who? - Michael_Portantiere 09:55 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| I would say in general there are people who act like that and people who are demanding without any reason. We can't cure that. But it should not obscure that there are situations in which power is real (and that can certainly include some "stars") and used in an unacceptable way. That needs to be the focus. | |
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| re: Who? | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 03:40 pm EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: Who? - reed23 06:17 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| All true, and also why our industry is toxic and rewards toxicity. Also why many folks are questioning whether they want to return to this business once live theater resumes. Bad behavior is rewarded and people are treated like garbage. | |
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| re: Who? | |
| Posted by: JereNYC (JereNYC@aol.com) 11:06 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
| In reply to: Who? - reed23 06:17 am EDT 04/09/21 | |
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| Well, the only thing that will really work is for people to stop employing/working with people who are abusive. If a director exhibits abusive behavior, producers and theatres need to stop hiring him/her. If it's a producer, go get your financing elsewhere or decline to work with projects originating there. My whole point here is that there are people that "everyone knows" are nightmares. But if there were consequences for their behavior (ie: work dries up), those people will either go away and be replaced by people who are, hopefully, not nightmares or they will change their behavior. Being abusive is not in any way a prerequisite for being talented or even being a genius. And continually making excuses and ignoring abusive behavior doesn't affect the genius, and will encourage the abuse. The greater issue at the moment is retaliation. We need to figure out how to protect people who are brave enough to come forward and speak about their experiences with such people. |
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| re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse | |
| Posted by: ryhog 12:12 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - JereNYC 11:08 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| The answer is simple (you have to change the culture) but the execution is hard. The retaliation is itself a component of the architecture of abuse. | |
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| It’s not limited to entertainment industry | |
| Posted by: dramedy 02:10 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Allegations of Physical Assault, Violent Outbursts, and Verbal Abuse - Singapore/Fling 01:23 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| I’m sure it happens in financial and business world also and probably in hospitals and other locations. The government jobs are pretty strict on what is allowable, but even a bully in management can take years to get removed. | |
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| re: It’s not limited to entertainment industry | |
| Posted by: ryhog 04:37 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It’s not limited to entertainment industry - dramedy 02:10 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| it happens everywhere but the standards are different and it is less likely in either a large employer or a union employer (such as hospitals, for instance). Rudin's office is neither. (Another industry that is a close runner-up is restaurants, for much the same reasons.) | |
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| re: It’s not limited to entertainment industry | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 10:56 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: It’s not limited to entertainment industry - ryhog 04:37 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| My experience is that it happens all over. From 1987 through 2018, I worked for a paper company. I loved what I did and it was easily the best job I ever had, but things weren't always perfect. When I started, my supervisor had the title of office manager. However, the guy in charge of my division was company vice-president. He wasn't a bully and was never physically or verbally abusive, but, nevertheless, I would describe him as a racist pig, a jerk, and an incorrigible liar. Our group consisted of about 15 office workers (sales, customer service, clerical -- 13 white and 2 Asian) and about 10 factory/warehouse workers (ran machines, picked orders, loaded trucks -- all African-American). The boss, although he never used the n-word in my presence, routinely referred to black employees as "the colored" or used other degrading racial names. My two Asian co-workers did the billing and were deathly afraid of him. He treated them as indentured servants. Although salaried, they put in 12-hour days Monday through Friday, plus 6 hours on Saturday and never received any monetary compensation for the extra hours. There was an office bully in my division, who was impossible to work with. He was demanding, belittling, and rude. When I went to my supervisor about him, I was told "Well, the owner likes him. He's great at cold calling and knows how to close a deal. You'll have to get along with him." Eventually he was transferred to the California office, where he harassed the hell out of my younger brother. Because there were so many complaints about him, he was moved from department to department for years. I think he was finally fired in around 2005. |
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| re: It’s not limited to entertainment industry | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 02:57 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: It’s not limited to entertainment industry - dramedy 02:10 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| It's not limited to entertainment, but entertainment is the industry that I work and have been verbally and emotionally abused in, so that's the one that I care about. | |
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| re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 12:17 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - StageLover 11:59 am EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| fingers crossed... | |
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| You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater | |
| Posted by: dramedy 12:20 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: Is Scott Rudin about to be Cancelled? - sirpupnyc 12:17 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| I know I do. | |
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| re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater | |
| Posted by: manchurch03104 07:38 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater - dramedy 12:20 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| best comment in this thread. thank you. | |
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| re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 04:33 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater - manchurch03104 07:38 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Yeah, let's ignore industry-wide verbal and physical abuse and instead complain about not being able to carry wasteful plastic bottles into the theater. | |
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| re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater | |
| Posted by: Chromolume 10:15 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater - Singapore/Fling 04:33 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Somehow this argument feels very different now that Georgia voters are prohibited from having water (or at least buying it) while waiting in long lines to vote on hot days. | |
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| re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:55 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater - Chromolume 10:15 pm EDT 04/08/21 | |
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| Mic drop. | |
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| re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater | |
| Posted by: Singapore/Fling 11:00 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater - dramedy 12:20 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Did the Rudin shows allow durable, reusable water bottles? My memory is that they did. | |
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| re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater | |
| Posted by: BroadwayTonyJ 05:26 am EDT 04/08/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater - Singapore/Fling 11:00 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| For years I was allowed to bring a small mug into the theater as long as it was empty and clean. I never hid it. I would always show it to the door guard before entering and then keep it in my jacket pocket. One time (I don't remember the show or theater) I was not allowed to have it with me in the theater so I had to check it with someone and then get it back after the show. My routine was to arrive at the theater maybe 45 minutes before showtime, drink a mug of coffee outside, clean and dry it before entering the building, and then at intermission (if I was thirsty) get some water from the drinking fountain and have a few swallows before act 2. Beginning in 2011 (when I switched from hotels to airbnb) I usually stayed at a guy's apartment close to the theater, drank my coffee at his place, and then hustled over to the theater, arriving maybe 15 minutes before showtime. I rarely (if ever) bought any food or drink at the theater with the exception of maybe a roll of candy. Are bottles of water no longer sold at the bar or was that practice discontinued years ago? |
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| It was never the same story twice. | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 11:20 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater - Singapore/Fling 11:00 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| One time it was “no outside food or drink, period” and another time I saw them try to confiscate someone’s durable water bottle saying “you can’t have anything that could be used as a weapon.” One time (The Front Page) we were told “Nathan Lane doesn’t like the water bottles crinkling when he acts” (never mind that the candy they sell makes 5X as much noise); but when we saw “Gary”, suddenly Nathan Lane apparently had no trouble with plastic water bottles, but because “it’s a short show” they basically came right out and said that the producer wanted us to buy his water. Enough already. This water nonsense is a drop in the bucket (no pun intended) of the myriad issues people have with Rudin, to say nothing of what’s going on in the world as a whole. But this is one time where if cancel culture is coming for the guy, it sounds like it’s long overdue, and in this instance I’m totally here for it. |
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| You know, now that you mention it – I've gotten so much money back from his shows because of this. | |
| Last Edit: ShowGoer 12:40 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| Posted by: ShowGoer 12:33 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater - dramedy 12:20 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| "The Front Page", "Hello Dolly", "Meteor Shower", "Three Tall Women", "The Iceman Cometh", "The Waverly Gallery", "Hillary and Clinton", "King Lear", "Gary", and "The Inheritance", if I remember right. All were subject to credit card disputes that I launched when my the water bottle and those of the party I was with were confiscated at the door – in each case I called Telecharge to notify them of why I was disputing part of the ticket charge, in every single case I was told by Telecharge that that shouldn't have happened, in each case I received an apology, in each case was promised it wouldn't happen again, in each case it did, and so in each case I filed a dispute again, all resolved without protest in my favor; $10 here, $20 here, $5 here, depending on how many people I was with and how many waters we had to surrender. Broadway as a rule lets you bring in water bottles with no other exceptions except his shows, and although he's involved with roughly 10% of the plays in a given season, I can't (and shouldn't have to be bothered) to check before I head to the theater and see whether his name is somewhere on a list of producers that will then prohibit me from being let in... especially when some of us have medical conditions that require us to stay hydrated (often for 4-to-6 hours during things like Lear, Iceman and Inheritance), and most especially when the ticket company, which is managed by the theater owners (Shubert) consistently tells me it shouldn't be happening in the first place and won't happen in the future. I'm guessing all told I've been refunded roughly $200-$225 over the past 4 or 5 years of theatergoing since he randomly instituted this policy at his shows. No idea who's paying for that in the final analysis, but I sure hope it's his production company. And while I've been criticized on here before for handling it this way, with someone saying 'rules are rules' and "this is the height of entitlement' – considering Telecharge keeps telling me it shouldn't be happening in the first place and they'll look into it, I don't think it's entitled at all. But if it is, then after reading this article, I've never been so comfortable with being called entitled. |
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| re: I always make sure ... | |
| Posted by: NewtonUK 04:16 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: You know, now that you mention it – I've gotten so much money back from his shows because of this. - ShowGoer 12:33 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| ... even in summer, to have a big enough pocket somewhere to completely conceal the water bottle. They make those mini ones - bringing in two is easy! | |
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| re: You know, now that you mention it – I've gotten so much money back from his shows because of this. | |
| Posted by: Pokernight 03:48 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: You know, now that you mention it – I've gotten so much money back from his shows because of this. - ShowGoer 12:33 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| His abusive behavior in Hollywood has been known for YEARS, but nothing was done because of his successes. The only positive comment I've ever heard about him was that, as a young casting director, he was dedicated and conscientious. I've worked with some monsters, and I'll never understand why they feel they have to behave in that manner. Kevin Spacey's beastly character in "Swimming With Sharks" is mild compared to the real-life Rudin. It's time for an article like that. Past time! | |
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| re: You know, now that you mention it – I've gotten so much money back from his shows because of this. | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 03:17 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: You know, now that you mention it – I've gotten so much money back from his shows because of this. - ShowGoer 12:33 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Good for you! I do wonder what would have happened if you had refused to surrender your water bottles, and then perhaps summoned the police when you then would presumably have been denied entrance to the theater. Did anything like this ever happen to you? I suppose not, or you would have mentioned it :-) Regardless, again: Good for you! |
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| I did object strongly | |
| Posted by: dramedy 04:18 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: re: You know, now that you mention it – I've gotten so much money back from his shows because of this. - Michael_Portantiere 03:17 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| But then I realized that I can’t shoot the messenger. They are only following orders. They probably could prevent you from entering the theater. And frankly, it’s not worth getting upset and ruining the show fuming about it. | |
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| re: I did object strongly | |
| Posted by: Michael_Portantiere 04:23 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: I did object strongly - dramedy 04:18 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Understood, thanks. I'm glad you didn't just let it pass, and sought and received compensation. I admire you very much for that. | |
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| I’ve had a few taken | |
| Posted by: dramedy 02:13 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: You know, now that you mention it – I've gotten so much money back from his shows because of this. - ShowGoer 12:33 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| And they were reused bottles—not new. It’s annoying and unnecessary since I only drink some water at intermission or after the show. | |
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| Ha. | |
| Posted by: sirpupnyc 12:30 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
| In reply to: You just want to bring your water bottle back into the theater - dramedy 12:20 pm EDT 04/07/21 | |
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| Very much not that. | |
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